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Lucky~9~Lives


Golden Black Tea
Why don't Protestants pray to the Saints? It's been a practice from even before the inception of the Church and 3/4 of all Christianity does it. Why do the Protestants (who've only been around for about 500 years) insist that it's wrong?


Intercession of saints - Modern Protestant views


Lucky, it's been a while since we've spoken! Glad to see you're still here.

And by the way, I already know the answer. smile
I just wanted to engage in discussion with any Protestant over the topic who disagrees with it. It's still something I'm wrestling with at the practical level.

Even if you could, why would you want to? They're just people.

Indulgent Demigod

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haunting heaven


Alright… I said I was going to stop, but you have provided a single fundamental flaw that has made your whole argument invalid. Before I quote it though…

1. Using all caps doesn't make you seem smarter. It just makes you look desperate.
2. Your futile attempt to label me a homophobe, bigot, pro-slavery, or heterosexist can only work if I show all qualities of those traits. I might show parts of heterosexism, but I do not fulfill the full definitions of any of the words (evident by their general use of "favoring" or "discrimination" or "prejudice" wink .
3. "LOL" just tells me that you're attempting to wave off a loss and trying to seem unaffected or trying to make me out to be ignorant. Has it worked? Not at all…
4. Your can't believe that a pansexual can be friends with me? Sorry to hear that you must have trouble making friends with. Meanwhile, I'm drawing pics for her and her pansexual girlfriend.
5. Please consider that you've pretty much consistently insulted me despite my attempt to be civil.

All in all… this "homophobic, bigoted, pro-slavery, heterosexist" Christian knows that it's her job to correct any misinterpretations, but it also isn't her job to argue the Bible. The Bible can argue for itself. I've done my part and if you don't want to accept it… tough luck. And here's a verse for you

Quote:
Matthew 4:1-11

Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness
4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.


And by leaving, it isn't implied that either has one won the argument (considering that they literally just threw verses at each other) but that Jesus has kept his faith despite the devil's constant badgering. I will do the same by letting the young one have her candy instead of taking it away and telling her it's bad for her health.

Are you ready for your fundamental flaw?

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Uh. No. I want you to stop believing that a sexual orientation you don't have is sinful and wrong.



This one statement has, and can, destroy any arguments you've put forth or will ever throw out. You sit there and claim that you've studied the Bible and know its flaws, but how can you state this and still retain that claim? No longer can I believe that you know what you're talking about when you try to support your side.

You've haven't a clue what true Christian values are and thus, I have no respect for any of your squabbles. You haven't studied the Bible. You are one of those who enjoy learning a few verses into depth just to exploit them in debate. This isn't deserving of respect. It's just shameful and dishonorable.

Off of that topic, I will round out my post and leave it on a different note.


I honestly and wholeheartedly wish you a long, healthy, and good life. We will never talk like this again yet I do wish we can still talk as friends outside of this bubble of debate. I do still retain that we can be friends despite our differences. If you still believe that we can't, then that is only up to you and I'm not going to argue with that. But please keep in mind that

It was not the homophobic, hateful Christian who rejected the hateful atheist for her beliefs.
Rather
It was the loving, friendly Christian who was rejected by the hateful atheist because of the Christian's beliefs.

Prodigal Mage

Phatty Cat
haunting heaven


Alright… I said I was going to stop, but you have provided a single fundamental flaw that has made your whole argument invalid. Before I quote it though…

wow. i can hardly wait.

e: and now that i know what you're referring to, i accept your concession, because that's exactly what this is.


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1. Using all caps doesn't make you seem smarter.

good thing that's not why i use them?

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It just makes you look desperate.

do you not know what emphasis/yelling are?

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2. Your futile attempt to label me a homophobe, bigot, pro-slavery, or heterosexist can only work if I show all qualities of those traits.

uh. that's... not how that works. like, at all.

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I might show parts of heterosexism, but I do not fulfill the full definitions of any of the words (evident by their general use of "favoring" or "discrimination" or "prejudice" wink .

if you fulfill any of the definition, you are a heterosexist (and thus a homophobe). i mean, did you read the list of things detailed from the brochure wikipedia cited? you really think that the point there was you had to fall underneath every particular instance of heterosexism in order to be a heterosexist?

do you know how many different ways misogyny can play out? does that mean that a person has to do EVERY SINGLE ONE in order to be a misogynist?

and "bigot" is so broadly defined that it would be impossible to fall under every instance of bigotry there can possibly be.

and look at the definition you posted:

Quote:
discrimination or prejudice against homosexuals on the assumption that heterosexuality is the normal sexual orientation

meaning one OR the other. meaning it is not necessary to fall under the entire spectrum of heterosexism (because like all bigotry, it manifests in different ways) to be a heterosexist.

so, since you're clearly wrong here, i'm taking this as an admission of your heterosexism! good job there! you finally admitted that your behavior is literally filed under the definition of heterosexism! this is a step in the right direction! the homophobic christian is slowly approaching self-awareness!


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3. "LOL" just tells me that you're attempting to wave off a loss and trying to seem unaffected or trying to make me out to be ignorant. Has it worked? Not at all…

it's me expressing the fact that your point is ridiculous enough that it made me snicker.

good to know that you're concentrating all your energy on nitpicking things that have nothing to do with my argument, though.


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4. Your can't believe that a pansexual can be friends with me? Sorry to hear that you must have trouble making friends with.

says the girl who is apparently so desperate to be friends with me, she can't accept the fact that I don't want to be friends with her.

but good job attempting to goad me, i guess. more reason to reject your supposed "loving" offer of friendship. heart


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Meanwhile, I'm drawing pics for her and her pansexual girlfriend.

the fact that you keep harping on this makes me less and less inclined to believe it. you want to talk about desperation?

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5. Please consider that you've pretty much consistently insulted me despite my attempt to be civil.

you haven't tried very hard, first off. second, you are a heterosexist (by your own admission now, since you are clearly aware that you fall under the spectrum) and you ARE pro-slavery. how else can you define someone that has literally said that slavery is moral?

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All in all… this "homophobic, bigoted, pro-slavery, heterosexist" Christian knows that it's her job to correct any misinterpretations, but it also isn't her job to argue the Bible.

and yet you're the one who made a thread about it! WOW! also you just said its your job to argue the bible but not your job to argue the bible. User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

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The Bible can argue for itself.

oh is that so. tell that to my atheism, please.

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I've done my part and if you don't want to accept it… tough luck.

ooh, yeah. i'm so crushed. the heterosexist, pro-slavery christian won't... what? continue to engage? hasn't convinced me to stop being a dirty lesbian? hasn't turned me christian? i don't even know. whatever the case, i'm sure this is all very upsetting.

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And here's a verse for you

i literally don't care. bye

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And by leaving, it isn't implied that either has one won the argument (considering that they literally just threw verses at each other) but that Jesus has kept his faith despite the devil's constant badgering.

still don't care, especially since you didn't correctly interpret that since Jesus OBVIOUSLY won the argument by being aware of how satan was misusing/misinterpreting scripture and calling him on it.

but is this your way of trying to say that even though you've ignored my entire argument, you haven't actually lost this debate? because... uh. you are not Jesus, dear. hate to break it to you. in fact, in this case, your behavior in this thread aligns more closely with satan's dishonest use of the bible, so. i guess that makes you the devil! begone!


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I will do the same by letting the young one have her candy instead of taking it away and telling her it's bad for her health.

are you... comparing mogai people to children? oh boy.

and yet you want everyone to believe you're best friends with a pansexual girl. rolleyes even if she does exist, just wait until she meets people who ACTUALLY support her and watch how fast she drops you, dear.

Quote:
Are you ready for your fundamental flaw?

haunting heaven
Uh. No. I want you to stop believing that a sexual orientation you don't have is sinful and wrong.



This one statement has, and can, destroy any arguments you've put forth or will ever throw out. You sit there and claim that you've studied the Bible and know its flaws, but how can you state this and still retain that claim? No longer can I believe that you know what you're talking about when you try to support your side.

wait... what?

seriously. i mean... what is this...?

...what?


Quote:
You've haven't a clue what true Christian values are and thus, I have no respect for any of your squabbles. You haven't studied the Bible. You are one of those who enjoy learning a few verses into depth just to exploit them in debate. This isn't deserving of respect. It's just shameful and dishonorable.

are you complaining that because I asked you to stop being a bigot, i'm somehow not aware that certain interpretations of the bible can imply that same sex attraction is wrong? or... what?

because I'm aware how one can interpret romans in such a way (and really, that's the only passage that even comes close to meaning what you want it to), but I also know that romans is referring specifically to idolatry and that paul wasn't aware of sexual orientations at all. he believed that those who partook in same sex activity (in order to worship false Gods, don't forget that part) were then by necessity going against their very nature.

also, you should read the whole thing in context, because if you did, you'd note that paul specifically says that the people in question were "given over to their lusts" BECAUSE of their idolatry.

are you accusing your very bestest friend of idolatry now, too?

what about children?

either way, if you think the "fundamental flaw" in my argument is the fact that I DISAGREE with a certain interpretation of the bible/disagree with the bible period, you haven't been paying attention. i'm an atheist. i'm not required to agree with your so called "christian values." even if you were right, and your interpretation was the only one/the most correct one (why don't you go talk to my christian sister about your "christian values," huh?), WHY WOULD I HAVE TO AGREE WITH THAT?

i mean, if i had said, "i want you to stop believing in God," would that magically mean that I've never read the bible???

obviously not. obviously this is just a sad attempt to excuse the fact that you literally have no argument since you don't know the bible nor history. 3nodding


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Off of that topic, I will round out my post and leave it on a different note.

I honestly and wholeheartedly wish you a long, healthy, and good life. We will never talk like this again yet I do wish we can still talk as friends outside of this bubble of debate. I do still retain that we can be friends despite our differences.

LOL. NO WE CAN'T.

why?

because i cannot be friends with bigots. the fact that you are ignoring what i have said about who i can be friends with just proves even further your lack of respect.


Quote:
If you still believe that we can't, then that is only up to you and I'm not going to argue with that. But please keep in mind that

It was not the homophobic, hateful Christian who rejected the hateful atheist for her beliefs.
Rather
It was the loving, friendly Christian who was rejected by the hateful atheist because of the Christian's beliefs.

oh boy.

i am "rejecting" you because i don't want to invite bigotry into my life. you can try to push this off onto me all you want, but you are not loving nor friendly (you literally cannot sit there and mock me and then try to pretend you are being "loving" and "friendly") and your version of christianity is toxic. would you insist that a poc who doesn't want to be friends with a "loving and friendly" racist is being "hateful"? i'm sure there are lots of "nice" neo-nazis out there.

because here's the thing:

it doesn't matter how "polite" you are, or how many times you do the whole "why can't we just be friends" shtick--in the end, you believe that some people deserve fewer rights than others, you support a belief system that causes real world harm, AND you think slavery is fine and dandy. why should i want that in my life? why should i tolerate that in my life? why should anyone?

i mean, if someone said, "i think black people are inferior, but i don't hate them! in fact, even though i think white people comprise the best race, i really love black people. i'm friends with lots of black people. i love diversity in my life," would you be falling all over yourself to be friends with that person?

bigotry is bigotry is bigotry, even if it comes wrapped in "friendly" platitudes and smiles.


Arachnoia
haunting heaven
Arachnoia
No excuse for attacking someone as you have.

you mean... calling someone out on things that i disagree with and pointing out their homophobic/heterosexist/pro-slavery beliefs?

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You preach respect, but do not practice it. And you call people of faith hypocrites.

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I’ll respect your opinion as long as your opinion doesn't disrespect anybody’s existence.

and i already explained this. i am under not obligation to respect someone who doesn't respect me or others. heterosexism/homophobia are by their very nature disrespect. i have never once said that we should respect others at all times. i believe respect is conditional and bigotry does not deserve respect.

also, i don't call people of faith hypocrites; i call specific individuals who are acting as hypocrites hypocrites. if you knew anything about me or paid attention to the goings on in this forum, you'd see I'm just as likely to call out other atheists. your faith or lack thereof is irrelevant to whether you are a bigot or not.


Attacking someone won't get you respect nor will it make an impression on anyone's beliefs.

well, then you have you answer, don't you, seeing as homophobia/heterosexism are by their very nature an ATTACK/disrespect.

in other words, you first.

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I'll respect your opinion as long as your opinion doesn't disrespect anybody's existence.


Iustificati
haunting heaven
oh, YOU could probably be "friends" with "someone like that" (lol omg), because you aren't the one being told your sexual orientation is abnormal, unnatural, and a sin. it's a hell of a lot harder for the person on the other side of that relationship, the one who has to endure bigotry at the hands of a person who claims to care for them.
So let me get this straight... you can tolerate acting on a belief based on a feeling,

i have no idea what this is supposed to mean, exactly, because sexual orientations are not "beliefs."

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but you can't tolerate a person's belief based on a sense of morality?

LOL. i can't tolerate bigotry. doesn't matter if you base your bigotry in morality, pseudo-science, or personal feelings. it's still bigotry, and i am under no obligation to tolerate it.

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Okay, I feel like you should examine your own belief system a little better. It's a FEELING. You can't argue with it anymore.

you clearly have no idea what I'm arguing against, do you?

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I believe engaging in homosexual acts is absolutely morally wrong.

then you're a homophobic bigot, full stop.

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I believe some people are more inclined to certain behaviors than others. I do not believe you should treat a person who engages in specific behaviors any differently than others who do not.

so you support gay marriage and you don't ever tell anyone that their sexual orientation is wrong.

oh, wait.


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This whole LBGTEFGHIJKLMNOP+-%*MOGIIPOGII nonsense is just that.

LOL. aren't you the little darling who added to the "convenient and fake gay friend" list? see, this is why i know you people are all liars. this kind of behavior is purposely cruel and snide, but then you want me to believe that somehow there are mogai people just jumping to be best friends with you guys.

yeah, okay. whatever makes you feel better about being a bigot.


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From all the conversations I've had with my apparently "imaginary" friends who do engage in these sexual acts, you know what the truth is? They're not sure! They know it turns them on, and in a different way than heterosexual sex does, but most of them don't sign on to this label nonsense.

ooh, yeah, conveniently your fake friends all line up behind your own personal aversion to "labels." of course, you're only against labels when they label something you're against. do you not label yourself as a christian? or your specific denomination? or your gender? or you nationality? or your own sexual orientation, straight boy?

Quote:
Some of them are even too mortified by the prospect of admitting, "Yeah, it was just a phase" to ever see themselves in another heterosexual relationship, even if they meet someone, and all because they crossed that threshold... and especially after all the hamming up and "YOU GO" that came from all of their friends and family riding the politically correct "some of my best friends are gay" train when they came out of the closet.

you know bisexuality is a thing? and that someone can be predominantly attracted to one gender and still sometimes be attracted to another? did you know that the way someone identifies themselves CAN change? i used to consider myself bi before i realized i was a lesbian. homophobia ******** our s**t up, and so does biphobia. being queer is hard sometimes, and people like you just make it harder

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You "Knights of the Fabulous Table" do more harm than good.

coming from a homophobic bigot, i'm not surprised you would think that supporting people who don't identify as straight/cis would be a bad thing.

but this just cements the fact that you are, ya know, a bigot.


Quote:
You encourage people to find an identity for themselves with sex acts. It's utterly debasing and disgusting, and it's also EXTREMELY shallow.

LOL. where did i ever say this? if someone wants to experiment, i'm not going to judge them (unless their experimentation takes advantage of someone else), but i don't encourage people to experiment, either. people can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm themselves or others.

or are you crying about the idea that someone would identify themselves by their SEXUAL ORIENTATION? which is more than any sex they may or may not choose to engage in. i am sex repulsed. still a lesbian though baby. is heterosexuality nothing more than sex? obviously not. the only one being shallow and debasing others here is YOU.


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People are beautiful and complicated and wonderful and irrational, but let's be honest, not everything that comes naturally is the right thing to do. If I'm stronger than you, why SHOULDN'T it be right for me to rape you?

[******** you, boy. you don't get to use rape analogies, first off. second of all, if you can't see the difference between violence and someone's sexual orientation, you need to reexamine YOUR belief system.

and lol at the implication that rape comes naturally to you. are you outing yourself as a rapist b***h?

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Oh, that's right, it's because it's morally reprehensible for me to act on such an impulse. No one is going to advocate me raping anyone, even if I can provide brain scans that prove I'm naturally inclined to do so, and that I "really feel like it." Not even if I prove I'm a "rapesexual" and I can only get turned on if my special somebody doesn't want it. Even if I don't act on it, would you stand here and defend my right to be a "rapesexual?" What if I really feel like you should? What if it really hurts me that you don't support what I feel? No, you're going to tell me it's wrong, because you believe it's wrong, and even if we stay friends after I tell you, you're not going to condone it.

i wouldn't stay friends with anyone who thought "rape" was a sexual orientation, you disgusting child. second of all, rape is a crime because it infringes on the bodily autonomy of others. you know what doesn't infringe on the bodily autonomy of others? consensual sex between consenting adults. or nonsexual relationships between consenting adults. once again it's not all about sex holy hell

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And before you even THINK about freaking out about my comparing sexual acts to rape, we both know the comparison is ABSURD.

THEN DON'T USE SUCH A COMPARISON, STRAIGHT BOY.

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The only reason I used it was so that I could be sure you too would agree that it's morally reprehensible.

you can't compare something morally reprehensible because of the HARM it causes to something that causes no harm at all (and in fact, demanding someone change their orientation and/or telling them to never have a romantic relationship IS actually harmful) and then pretend like you've made a point. it's absurd because there is no comparison to be drawn and is absolutely nonsensical

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It's about the patterns of behavior, and getting you to understand how it's possible to see a behavior as bad and still not inherently hate the person for an inclination to which you personally morally object.

oh, i would hate someone who actually tried to claim that.

also, you homophobes are the only ones going on and on about hate. hatred is not the only form of bigotry. sit down and contemplate that for a while.


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You seem to see yourself as morally superior to others just for disagreeing with a choice of behavior and labeling others who disagree with it (well, you don't seem to mind labeling anyone, actually), but you can't see the hypocrisy of just how intolerant you yourself are being.

it is not hypocrisy to not tolerate intolerance. this really isn't that difficult. would you demand that poc tolerate racism? should women tolerate misogyny? when someone upholds an intolerant worldview that attacks and disrespects a group of people, that person can't then turn around and demand tolerance for themselves. THAT is hypocrisy.

also, you don't mind labeling people, either. or are you literally not aware that "christian" and "american" and "straight" and "white" and "male" are all labels?

Tainiae's Partner

Amorous Ladykiller

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Modern slavery might be evil, but slavery is not inherently evil. There's a distinct difference between Biblical slavery and current slavery.


User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

haunting heaven


You're probably wasting your time, sorry to say. =/

Tainiae's Partner

Amorous Ladykiller

Phatty Cat


I'll try to put this as simply as I possibly can.

Resorting to condescension reminiscent of a superiority complex does not grant you immunity or winning of the battle or argument, nor does it end it.

With that out of the way. . .

Slavery is bad.

Hating homosexuality (whether or not you hate the people that do it) and thinking heterosexual relations are superior is heterosexist.

To expound on these: having a pansexual friend does not excuse you from judgment or criticism on the point of heterosexism.

Saying that there is a difference between modern and Biblical slavery (and using it as an excuse) is morally repugnant because slavery is a gross violation of basic human rights in multiple ways, regardless of the presence of violence. To say that the difference between the types of slavery is what excuses one and makes slavery 'not inherently evil' is, in fact, excusing slavery. You don't get to pick and choose which one is bad and which one isn't for any reason, especially not if it is predicated on some fallacious moral highground.

I could go on more, but those two points are recurrent and it's necessary for others to step in: there is nothing you can say that will clean you of these things because you are expressing beliefs that are directly harmful toward people (especially so if they were to become actions) and every attempt to rationalize or justify them makes it worse.

Slavery is horrendous. Trying to use examples from confirmation bias makes you sound much worse.

You don't have to fit all of the criteria for something to be it.

I just—that's all I can really say. I'm astounded by the moral depravity here, and I wish I was sorry for making this observation.

I hope you can learn that things like slavery are inexcusable crimes against humanity and nothing will change that, and that assertion of a friend in the minority you are lambasting is not a way to evade judgment or criticism. Every insistence to the contrary shows the kind of person you are, especially in their defense.

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Iustificati
Golden Black Tea
Lucky~9~Lives


Golden Black Tea
Why don't Protestants pray to the Saints? It's been a practice from even before the inception of the Church and 3/4 of all Christianity does it. Why do the Protestants (who've only been around for about 500 years) insist that it's wrong?


Intercession of saints - Modern Protestant views
Why would you ask your church members to pray for you? They're just people.

Lucky, it's been a while since we've spoken! Glad to see you're still here.

And by the way, I already know the answer. smile
I just wanted to engage in discussion with any Protestant over the topic who disagrees with it. It's still something I'm wrestling with at the practical level.

Even if you could, why would you want to? They're just people.

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