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Blue Beastie
Mrtyu-Mara
1. The college I went to was not like that. Now...there is a college here in Ohio known as the "party school", so it could be a possibility that college is all about sex, drugs, and parties on that campus. But on mine? Not really.

2. If a class did have a zealot Professor that pushed his/her views onto his/her students, I would of course side with the students. Forcing beliefs (no matter what they are), is not okay. I don't even go see atheism-driven movies most of the time, because they're usually just as bad when it comes to demonizing believers -- Christians especially.

I actually took an Introduction to Ethics class a few semesters back (which fell under Philosophy), and my teacher was too religious for my liking. He gave us all a textbook that he wrote for us, and while reading, it came across as highly biased in Christian religion. Needless to say, I dropped the class. I didn't cause a scene. I didn't b***h and complain. Reading the text book, and doing the homework, I simply said, "Nope." If I wanted to take a class for Christian ethics, I would have.

I won't ever say that teachers never cross the line when it comes to discrimination. Of course some do. No one is perfect. But to say that Christians and Christian groups across the United States suffer severe discrimination on MOST college campuses is a highly suspect to me.


I see. Well, I commend your maturity! I too watched the movie thinking, "I'm pretty sure a professor isn't allowed to make his students write that for a grade..." But then I saw it was apparently a true story. I'm sure there were exaggerations though, like you insinuated.

You know what I think is sad? In China, this is definitely more of a problem, but he had the least developed sub-pot.

I have a hard time believing that it's even "based off a true story." My reason being, if one felt their teacher was being a bigoted d**k, why not go to the Dean? Why even bother with the assignment at all? To attempt prove to this dogmatic, argumentative, heathenistic atheist that God does exist? Why is it absolutely necessary to defend your faith against someone with differing views -- particularly bigots? If they had gone to the Dean and said, "Yo, this b***h better check himself before he wrecks himself." then the entire assignment would've been dropped, and the teacher could've gotten suspended or fired. OR, if the teacher knew who went to the Dean, the student would've probably been pulled from the class.

Regardless, I rarely buy into the "true story" spiel.

Unforgiving Warlord

Mrtyu-Mara
Blue Beastie
Mrtyu-Mara
1. The college I went to was not like that. Now...there is a college here in Ohio known as the "party school", so it could be a possibility that college is all about sex, drugs, and parties on that campus. But on mine? Not really.

2. If a class did have a zealot Professor that pushed his/her views onto his/her students, I would of course side with the students. Forcing beliefs (no matter what they are), is not okay. I don't even go see atheism-driven movies most of the time, because they're usually just as bad when it comes to demonizing believers -- Christians especially.

I actually took an Introduction to Ethics class a few semesters back (which fell under Philosophy), and my teacher was too religious for my liking. He gave us all a textbook that he wrote for us, and while reading, it came across as highly biased in Christian religion. Needless to say, I dropped the class. I didn't cause a scene. I didn't b***h and complain. Reading the text book, and doing the homework, I simply said, "Nope." If I wanted to take a class for Christian ethics, I would have.

I won't ever say that teachers never cross the line when it comes to discrimination. Of course some do. No one is perfect. But to say that Christians and Christian groups across the United States suffer severe discrimination on MOST college campuses is a highly suspect to me.


I see. Well, I commend your maturity! I too watched the movie thinking, "I'm pretty sure a professor isn't allowed to make his students write that for a grade..." But then I saw it was apparently a true story. I'm sure there were exaggerations though, like you insinuated.

You know what I think is sad? In China, this is definitely more of a problem, but he had the least developed sub-pot.

I have a hard time believing that it's even "based off a true story." My reason being, if one felt their teacher was being a bigoted d**k, why not go to the Dean? Why even bother with the assignment at all? To attempt prove to this dogmatic, argumentative, heathenistic atheist that God does exist? Why is it absolutely necessary to defend your faith against someone with differing views -- particularly bigots? If they had gone to the Dean and said, "Yo, this b***h better check himself before he wrecks himself." then the entire assignment would've been dropped, and the teacher could've gotten suspended or fired. OR, if the teacher knew who went to the Dean, the student would've probably been pulled from the class.

Regardless, I rarely buy into the "true story" spiel.


( I have to go to bed after this post, which is too bad because is the most interesting conversation I've had today, I think. But: )

I can see the need to defend his faith. There is a saying that goes, "Philosophy teaches us about the world, the point, however, is to change it." Part of the Christian mission is to reach out to others and dispel the darkness. Part of dispelling darkness is to help others to hate a little less, so it would be considered uncharitable not to explain his position and try to get the professor to slack up on his theistic students. Maybe not to convert, per se, only the person can do that, but sow the seed of understanding.

On the other hand, that didn't seem to be Josh's intention... So. I don't know. But, there WOULD be a reason.

rmcdra
Oh okay.

No I wouldn't side with the professor because it's closed minded. I mean what kind of school would force students or professors to believe in a metaphysical stance without any argument... oh wait.


I gotta go to bed and that's a whole lot of handbook. But thanks for speaking with me anyway!

With that, I bid everyone a good time.

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Blue Beastie

rmcdra
Oh okay.

No I wouldn't side with the professor because it's closed minded. I mean what kind of school would force students or professors to believe in a metaphysical stance without any argument... oh wait.


I gotta go to bed and that's a whole lot of handbook. But thanks for speaking with me anyway!

With that, I bid everyone a good time.
Oh it was a pleasure to talk with you too. The point of that handbook was to show that there was a university that required it's students (and by extension teachers) to believe a particular way but do notice that this is a private university, not a state university or community college which don't, in theory, require a particular belief stance to attend.

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Makes me wonder if ideas for the movie came from this little mess "Stomp on Jesus"

A professor in a intercultural communications class used an exercise from a textbook told students to write Jesus on a piece of paper and step on it, that turned into a big mess after a student refused to do it.

Fashionable Genius

The movie writers have clearly never taken a philosophy class. "God is dead" sounds more like a conclusion to an argument then an opening statement. Are they trying to reference Neitzsche?

Unless the professor was trolling the class

...

Which I could actually see some doing that as a tool to get the students to think. And then they get slapped silly by the administration because of complaints.

Timid Seeker

I've never felt 'persecuted' for my religion, but I always (definitely) felt it was unwelcome.

The higher up in education you go, the more you see people who either don't know God or really hate him. On a secular university campus, it really does sometimes seem like you're alone, and in every science course (even the social sciences) God is unwelcome. A lot of Christians also turn away from God around their college years as well.

Although I haven't seen it yet, I feel like the movie was meant to be moreso for them. The people who feel like everything they're doing in their major right now is countering God and their ability to live as Christians are the ones this movie is directed to. Your profession will ultimately impact your time, the people you meet and the people you're close to. For most people within STEM (who are religious) it's sometimes a choice between living up to the principles of your faith or leaving it behind and living like an atheist. If you are in a STEM field you either pretend you're not religious or you don't go anywhere. You never mention it in anything, ever, and never allow yourself to be quoted that you're a theist. No one would ever listen to you ever again, even if your science is great.

Clearly there would never be a legitimate (introductory) philosophy class that completely skips over cosmology or would give that much importance to Nietzsche, and the professor should have been fired for being an a** -- if you don't want to teach it and you wrote the course, exclude it from the lesson plan -- but it's a good somewhat "closed" environment for a movie. You want to make a movie that portrays how Christians feel in a secular university? Make a movie about one class and give lots of opportunity to talk about the subject. It's a microcosm in which to explore your subject.

The students were the people "on the fence" and the professor was representative of atheism. I'm pretty sure that if Nietzsche was a thematic element, they likely made the professor into the character of the Overman. Someone who handles life himself and can control the less significant people because he wants and he can. It's a good parallel between the subtle feeling of "heroism" in the narrative of Darwinian evolution, the current "self made" individualistic culture, and a lot of people's answer to why they don't believe in God. They think that they don't need him.
K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a
It's a good parallel between the subtle feeling of "heroism" in the narrative of Darwinian evolution, the current "self made" individualistic culture, and a lot of people's answer to why they don't believe in God. They think that they don't need him.

Or they could, you know, not believe god actually exists, which is what being an atheist means.

From what I've been able to gather on the movie, the professor answers the question "why are you angry at god?" with something along the lines of "because my wife died of cancer". An atheist would not be angry at a character they believed to be fictional. It would be like asking a Christian "do you believe in Odin?" and when they say no responding with "why are you angry with Odin?" It makes no sense. The professor in the movie is therefore not an atheist, but someone who is really mad at a god they believe in, so they say they don't believe in that god to... I don't know, piss him off? make the god sad? Whatever the case may be, he is not actually an atheist.

Timid Seeker

Turnilk
K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a
It's a good parallel between the subtle feeling of "heroism" in the narrative of Darwinian evolution, the current "self made" individualistic culture, and a lot of people's answer to why they don't believe in God. They think that they don't need him.

Or they could, you know, not believe god actually exists, which is what being an atheist means.

From what I've been able to gather on the movie, the professor answers the question "why are you angry at god?" with something along the lines of "because my wife died of cancer". An atheist would not be angry at a character they believed to be fictional. It would be like asking a Christian "do you believe in Odin?" and when they say no responding with "why are you angry with Odin?" It makes no sense. The professor in the movie is therefore not an atheist, but someone who is really mad at a god they believe in, so they say they don't believe in that god to... I don't know, piss him off? make the god sad? Whatever the case may be, he is not actually an atheist.

Not everyone has beef with God, but those that do are still atheists.

People's motives for not believing in God are often more complex than "they just don't." At least if they're from a western culture. Most international students here from Asia never heard of who Jesus is, so they don't have any sort of bias or poor experience with God. (So asian international students might be a good demographic representation of actual atheists / agnostics)

Even if it doesn't philosophically jive with atheism, people who are angry with God and actively avoid worshiping him / claiming his existence still associate themselves with atheism. So we talk about them using their self given title.

Loved Seeker

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K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a
I've never felt 'persecuted' for my religion, but I always (definitely) felt it was unwelcome.

The higher up in education you go, the more you see people who either don't know God or really hate him. On a secular university campus, it really does sometimes seem like you're alone, and in every science course (even the social sciences) God is unwelcome. A lot of Christians also turn away from God around their college years as well.

Although I haven't seen it yet, I feel like the movie was meant to be moreso for them. The people who feel like everything they're doing in their major right now is countering God and their ability to live as Christians are the ones this movie is directed to. Your profession will ultimately impact your time, the people you meet and the people you're close to. For most people within STEM (who are religious) it's sometimes a choice between living up to the principles of your faith or leaving it behind and living like an atheist. If you are in a STEM field you either pretend you're not religious or you don't go anywhere. You never mention it in anything, ever, and never allow yourself to be quoted that you're a theist. No one would ever listen to you ever again, even if your science is great.

Clearly there would never be a legitimate (introductory) philosophy class that completely skips over cosmology or would give that much importance to Nietzsche, and the professor should have been fired for being an a** -- if you don't want to teach it and you wrote the course, exclude it from the lesson plan -- but it's a good somewhat "closed" environment for a movie. You want to make a movie that portrays how Christians feel in a secular university? Make a movie about one class and give lots of opportunity to talk about the subject. It's a microcosm in which to explore your subject.

The students were the people "on the fence" and the professor was representative of atheism. I'm pretty sure that if Nietzsche was a thematic element, they likely made the professor into the character of the Overman. Someone who handles life himself and can control the less significant people because he wants and he can. It's a good parallel between the subtle feeling of "heroism" in the narrative of Darwinian evolution, the current "self made" individualistic culture, and a lot of people's answer to why they don't believe in God. They think that they don't need him.
I'm going to kindly disagree with you on that. My biology professor, who is also a nueroscientist is openly Christian, specifically Baptist, and goes on mission trips pretty regularly. He teaches at a state funded university in Northern Louisiana. My undergrad thesis adviser at that same university is Eastern Orthodox, is very spiritual and he teaches upper level mathematics. He is one of the 9 professors in the US that actually understands and can teach a specific type of mathematical logic. The biggest turn off to Christianity at that university, and made my exploration and eventual re-conversion back into Christianity more difficult, was the zealots who don't understand their religion and insisted that they were experts because they read the Bible. They had closed hearts and minds and could not comprehend what was plainly in front of them. The movie is not based on anything but a lie that US Christians are buying hook, line, and sinker because they fear that they are losing cultural power which if they actually understood scriptures is ultimately an illusion, like all power, save the power of God. This movie doesn't uplift, but creates fear that need not be there because the scenario presented does not exist except in the minds of a few deluded Christians who have forsaken their faith for fear.

Edit:Clarification

Loved Seeker

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K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a

Not everyone has beef with God, but those that do are still atheists.
Wouldn't that be a misotheist?

Quote:
People's motives for not believing in God are often more complex than "they just don't." At least if they're from a western culture. Most international students here from Asia never heard of who Jesus is, so they don't have any sort of bias or poor experience with God. (So asian international students might be a good demographic representation of actual atheists / agnostics)
Why? There's plenty of folks in western culture who are raised non-religious. There's also arguments for the existence of god(s) that some don't buy and thus don't believe because the arguments are faulty.

Quote:
Even if it doesn't philosophically jive with atheism, people who are angry with God and actively avoid worshiping him / claiming his existence still associate themselves with atheism. So we talk about them using their self given title.
And that is stereotyping and also doesn't make sense. If someone doesn't believe in God why would they be angry at something that doesn't exist. I could see them being angry at followers of this being they view as imaginary. I could see them being angry at limitations and restrictions that these followers place on others. I cannot see them being angry at something they don't believe to exist.
K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a
Not everyone has beef with God, but those that do are still atheists.


Turnilk
An atheist would not be angry at a character they believed to be fictional. It would be like asking a Christian "do you believe in Odin?" and when they say no responding with "why are you angry with Odin?" It makes no sense.

the dictionary
a·the·ist [ey-thee-ist]
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


I reiterate: an atheist, a person who does not believe in any god or gods existing, would reguard the god of the bible as a fictional character and would therefore not push blame on them. Putting blame on a fictional character for something not in their story universe is ridiculous. Its like blaming the wolf from red riding hood for my grandmother's death. If I do not believe the story to have an real world impact beyond it just being a story, then I would not blame the wolf for jack in the real world. I would, however, blame it for eating the grandmother and girl in the story.

For one to blame someone in a story for something they first need to believe that character is real. I cannot make this any clearer.

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a
People's motives for not believing in God are often more complex than "they just don't."At least if they're from a western culture. Most international students here from Asia never heard of who Jesus is, so they don't have any sort of bias or poor experience with God. (So asian international students might be a good demographic representation of actual atheists / agnostics)

I'd love to see an actual study that reflects this, otherwise I must assume you're pulling the information it out of the sky.

K-r-e-v-y-e-t-k-a
Even if it doesn't philosophically jive with atheism, people who are angry with God and actively avoid worshiping him / claiming his existence still associate themselves with atheism. So we talk about them using their self given title.

Avoiding worship of a being one believes is real is not what an atheist is. Please read a dictionary.

EDIT: apparently I left out half a sentence when typing.
rmcdra

I gotta say, your responses to Krevyetka are much more thought out and better said than mine.

Loved Seeker

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Turnilk
rmcdra

I gotta say, your responses to Krevyetka are much more thought out and better said than mine.
Thank you, I wasn't trying to take over the conversation. Krevyetka basically hit a nerve. Hell everyone who has been praising how true or inspiring this movie is has been hitting a nerve with me. My college experience was where I saw some of the darker side of religion, specifically Christianity. I saw some flickers of the light that it appeals to me so it wasn't all bad, I mean I had professors I greatly admired that were Christian and weren't like the rest of the town; but most of the town pretty much exemplified many of the negative stereotypes you hear about Christians.

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Religion is bogus

Dapper Informer

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rmcdra
Turnilk
rmcdra

I gotta say, your responses to Krevyetka are much more thought out and better said than mine.
Thank you, I wasn't trying to take over the conversation. Krevyetka basically hit a nerve. Hell everyone who has been praising how true or inspiring this movie is has been hitting a nerve with me. My college experience was where I saw some of the darker side of religion, specifically Christianity. I saw some flickers of the light that it appeals to me so it wasn't all bad, I mean I had professors I greatly admired that were Christian and weren't like the rest of the town; but most of the town pretty much exemplified many of the negative stereotypes you hear about Christians.

I'm happy you were fortunate enough to meet those who stepped away from the negative stereotypes.

I, unfortunately, did not get to be so fortunate. Since I live in a rural area of Ohio, it's very back-water and there is religious zeal everywhere. I was a social pariah in High School due to my atheism and called a "Devil worshiper" (which shows their idiocy is astronomical). Eventually, I "wised up" I guess, and never revealed my religious beliefs. When asked, I would say, "I don't know you well enough to get into that." or "My mom taught me that you shouldn't discuss religion or politics in polite company."

There was only one teacher I was fortunate enough to meet that truly could discuss philosophical and religious topics with me like an unbiased, nonjudgmental adult. I wish there were more people like that.



Side note: It's actually funny, rmcdra. I guess I made some of my family mad for a Facebook post I made about God's Not Dead. I commented that I couldn't see a movie endorsed by the AFA in good conscience, and my step-mom got all in a tizzy over that. She basically made a snarky comment and said she was still going to go see it. I told her "And that's fine. I've got no beef with that. Get down with your bad self." lol

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