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sheehandan
Laniston

My suggestion to all of you, is that you ask the one and only person who can tell you whether or not Joseph Smith was called of God to do what he had done. Ask God. I believe that if you sincerely want to know, and pray to Heavenly Father to find out that you will get an answer. I did...and I know that he was called of God.


You know what? I did that. You know what God told me? He said that Joseph Smith was an a*****e, and that your entire religion was bunk.

Honestly, I read the book of Mormon, and I prayed, with true and honest intent to know if it was true. I prayed constantly. I spent a good 7 years asking for truth, and all I got was a big, fat NO. And it came from God.

Yes, I was living the gospel when I prayed. Yes I prayed with pure intent in my heart. Yes, I read the scriptures every day, and yes, I went to church, and bore my testimony, and went to all the lessons. And God told me it was all false.

********]

You know, I've been in the church for 14 years, and I only got my answer about 3 years ago. But, the 11 years before that were happier than you can know. Through all the hardships of life everyone goes through, and my own struggles with the LDS church (believe me, I wasn't always this full of conviction) I kept going in it. Now there's not one thing on this planet that can change the knowledge I hold in my heart that it is true. Gordon B. Hinkley IS a prophet of God. The Book of Mormon was translated correctly by Joseph Smith, who while not perfect, was divinely called to restore Christ's church on the earth. I believe in the Book of Mormon with all my heart. Following the teachings within it will lead anyone to a better, happier life on this earth, and in the next life.

I won't comment on that post of your's. There are things in there that are definitely not true. Even if you don't believe in the LDS church, if you are a Christian at all you'd know that God loves all his children, and would not want His children hating each other. Christ's second commandment, love thy neighbour, is as true now as it was then.


Disagree all you like, that is what I believe. That is MY testimony.

By the way, I did read his entire testimony. I have also emailed Mike a couple questions.
Laniston -
lkuhasgdf laisulais dfliusadf laskufgfj lkuagsdh dj dhg

Translate it, b***h. You know English, and it is, in fact, using the English Character set. You RECOGNIZE the characters, right? And by your Logic, if Egyptian Characters are thrown into a Sentance, then they can be translated into English. But I removed a step for you. It is already in The English Alphabet, so translate it into the English Language.
Takai_desu_yo
Laniston -
lkuhasgdf laisulais dfliusadf laskufgfj lkuagsdh dj dhg

Translate it, b***h. You know English, and it is, in fact, using the English Character set. You RECOGNIZE the characters, right? And by your Logic, if Egyptian Characters are thrown into a Sentance, then they can be translated into English. But I removed a step for you. It is already in The English Alphabet, so translate it into the English Language.


does this somehow prove that the kinderhook plates were thusly arranged? no. look..I can do it too!

sfhag wothagebu aldsjgals hgoegh

wow. that is so conclusive. Yes, they possibly could have done that. Or they maybe did not. Can you say? nope. obviously not. Therefore, your "argument" is simply ranting. Thank you.
Laniston
Takai_desu_yo
he Claims to be. He claimed that they were in fact great Wisdom, and You got the Pearl of Great Price from false Plates.


Also I feel I have to point out, AGAIN, that he said PLATES. not PAPYRI. He says right here. "You got the Pearl of Great Price from false plates". you see? see it? right there! plates!!!
Whatever you got from the Plates, your Church is still using it, knowing the fact that the Plates were false. They were Forgeries, someone from your Church examined them, and it still showed that they were created in a Blacksmiths shop, mid-19th Century. So I misquoted, I don't remember all the facts perfectly, Leave it be.
Laniston

[********!

My uncle was a bishop. Now he's not. He's still alive. ******** YOUR WRONG AGAIN!


please read.

Takai_desu_yo
Are you telling me that the Mormon Church, as it stands, has absolutely NOBODY leading it at all? What the Hell is Gordon B. Hinckley, then? Your Bishops? Simple Stupid FigureHeads? talk about being led astray...


He was referring to Gordon B. Hinkley. He said a former Leader of the Church. A bishop isn't a leader of the church. He's the leader of the ward. Likewise it is the same. Leaders are called to lead smaller sections of the Church, but not the whole. The man called to lead the church is the President of the Church. He should have worded his argument better, as not to make that error. Though I am sure it was in his zeal to flame me.
I am a former High School Student. That is true, because at one time in my past, I went to high School. I don't any longer. There are many former High school Students. There are even dead High School Students. But, there are living former High School Students. Because, you see, "Former" does not mean Dead. People who drop from the Church, are also included as 'former' members. Gordon B. Hinckley is a 'current' leader of the Church. Brighaim Young is a 'former' leader of the Church. The owner of the 'JosephLied.com' website is a 'former' Leader of the Church, in the Sense that he is no longer a leader.
Laniston

He also called your uncle a simple stupid figurehead for being a bishop.
not just his uncle, but any bishop of the mormon church.
Laniston
And..about the swearing and name calling. You are violating the agreement you signed to use Gaia at all.
no, actually. It doesn't say anyware in the ******** TOS that swearing is unallowed. And ******** actually reported this ******** thread for the exact same ******** thing around 50 ******** pages ago. Noraboo was ******** pissed at them for wasting her time. So ******** shove it, and read the ******** rules before you ******** try and tell us to follow them.
Laniston
You're arguments are filled with not only your desire to prove your point, but your desire to make me feel stupid, ignorant, or just plain upset.
You make yourself look ignorent quite well on your own. We're just here to help you along the way.
Laniston
You can't do it, and if you post one single swear in reply to this you will be reported to the mods. [/******** you.
Laniston
I don't care what you say about Joseph Smith, because I believe in him. I have that testimony. But you don't have the right to flame me for doing so.
*Insert Flame, of which none but the Great Noraboo can remove here*
Laniston
Notice that I am not using a single swear? I don't need to resort to petty swearing in order to make my voice heard. In fact, I don't need to be heard at all.
Then Shut Up?
Laniston
There is nothing you can say to make me change my mind, and I think it very likely the same can be said of you people who are against my church.

If you're going to hate me for what I believe in, do it with some dignity and show me that you can argue without swearing, or any form of insulting.
thus you say, telling us that our way of speech is undignifying. I believe that is an Insult. Though, lemme guess, that's just my Opinion? You really like Hitler, I've noticed...
Laniston
Takai_desu_yo
Laniston -
lkuhasgdf laisulais dfliusadf laskufgfj lkuagsdh dj dhg

Translate it, b***h. You know English, and it is, in fact, using the English Character set. You RECOGNIZE the characters, right? And by your Logic, if Egyptian Characters are thrown into a Sentance, then they can be translated into English. But I removed a step for you. It is already in The English Alphabet, so translate it into the English Language.


does this somehow prove that the kinderhook plates were thusly arranged? no. look..I can do it too!

sfhag wothagebu aldsjgals hgoegh

wow. that is so conclusive. Yes, they possibly could have done that. Or they maybe did not. Can you say? nope. obviously not. Therefore, your "argument" is simply ranting. Thank you.
I have no idea what the ******** you're saying. Do you speak English?
Allow me to show you some logical conclusions.

Laniston

Why do you not mention, that they carved Egyptian on them? Why do you suppose that Joseph Smith would see these plates, and after spending so much time looking at hierroglyphics, not be able to tell if the symbols he saw were similar or not? Do you think they could have put whatever they wanted on there and have it work? no! In fact it doesn't say anywhere that they wrote gibberish on them. You are saying that. Just because it wasn't written by egyptians, doesn't mean it wasn't written in Egyptian. Find for me where it says "THE PLATES DID NOT HAVE EGYPTIAN OR ANYTHING SIMILAR WRITTEN ON THEM". and then I will take another look at this argument of your's. Also, I was using his words of anyone having any sense would know blah blah blah. Well that is opinion. It's like Hitler saying "Anyone with any sense would know that the Jews are inferior and in need of killing." Does that make him right? no. it makes him opinionated.


Joseph Smith never showed the reformed egyptian alphabet to anyone. The rosetta stone was not uncovered until /after/ Josephs death. The egyptian writing would have been gibberish, because at the time, no one knew how to translate egyptian.

Logical conclusion? It was all bunk. It is such an insanely incredible leap of logic for you to not beleive this.

Anyone with any sense would see that the Kinderhook plates were bunk. It's a fact. It's past opinion. It's like a scientist saying "Anyone with any sense would see that things with mass attract eachother, due to gravitational pull." It's true, and you would have to be an idiot to not see it.


Quote:
sheehandan
If it's an admitted hoax, how would the caracters be true, or possibly translated. ITS A HOAX! What the ******** is going on in your brain?


This is so strange. I will make the point again. What was written on the plates? Was it French? Spanish? Dutch? German? nope. none of those. It was a language that Joseph Smith recognized as he had seen the same kind of hieroglyphics on the plates of gold the Book of Mormon was translated from. The people making the hoax would have known this, and would have had to come up with some way to make the plates realistic enough to fool Joseph Smith. The articles on the website don't go into detail on this at all. They could have easily found an Egyptologist and asked him to help make some things up to put on it. Remember, a lot of scholars were upset at Joseph's claim to be translating egyptian texts. The Rosetta Stone had surfaced, and hieroglyphics were being studied now. So the knowledge to create the symbols was there.

I'm not saying that is what happened, but it is not documented is it? It doesn't say much on the actual production of the plates. I find that quite strange.


I'll make my point again. The rosetta stone was not discovered until after Josephs death. The egyptian they would have written wouldn't have been the reformed version that Joseph read. It was a few farmers and a blacksmith who made these plates.

Logical conclusion? It's bunk.

Quote:
sheehandan
The Pearl of Great Price was "translated" from the book of Abraham. These papyri that Joseph Smith bought off a traveling circus, and then translated into a new version of Genesis, on closer inspection, turned out to be burial rights for a random, unimportant mummy. Using the rosetta stone, lingual experts have proven that Joseph's translation was purely and totally made up out of thin air.


The translation using the Rosetta stone was compared to scrolls which were thought to be the original papyri Joseph had. Since no one has any kind of conclusive evidence that they were the same scrolls other than some duplicate drawings and maps, I cannot fully accept this argument. It is impossible to argue that they were the same without modern forensics I would think. This one is left up to the opinion of the reader, I'm afraid. I hope you can at least agree on that. With today's forensic techniques and technology no one would say, "this piece of badly torn paper has the same drawing as the one we think it is had. They MUST be the same!" That's far too simple. If plates of brass could be forged to trick Joseph Smith, couldn't documents be forged as well? I'm not saying that they were, but again not enough information is presented.


The scroll found matches the notes Joseph made. Egyptologists have looked over both the drawings Joseph made, Joseph's original sketchs, and the papyri found in Chicago. They match. There's plenty of evidence. You're just being a blind a**.

Quote:
Takai_desu_yo
he Claims to be. He claimed that they were in fact great Wisdom, and You got the Pearl of Great Price from false Plates.


Also I feel I have to point out, AGAIN, that he said PLATES. not PAPYRI. He says right here. "You got the Pearl of Great Price from false plates". you see? see it? right there! plates!!!


Arguing semantics. His point still stands. You lose.

[********!

My uncle was a bishop. Now he's not. He's still alive. ******** YOUR WRONG AGAIN!

please read.

Takai_desu_yo
Are you telling me that the Mormon Church, as it stands, has absolutely NOBODY leading it at all? What the Hell is Gordon B. Hinckley, then? Your Bishops? Simple Stupid FigureHeads? talk about being led astray...


He was referring to Gordon B. Hinkley. He said a former Leader of the Church. A bishop isn't a leader of the church. He's the leader of the ward. Likewise it is the same. Leaders are called to lead smaller sections of the Church, but not the whole. The man called to lead the church is the President of the Church. He should have worded his argument better, as not to make that error. Though I am sure it was in his zeal to flame me.


He also called your uncle a simple stupid figurehead for being a bishop.

More semantics. Bishops, stake presidents, high priests, quorom leaders, quorom members. Basically anyone who holds the priesthood, is a church leader. You, on the other hand, were an a*****e and blatantly ignored his point, being that Mike used to be a church leader. ********.

And I agree. My uncle is a simple stupid figurehead. As are all church leaders.


Quote:
sheehandan
Nowhere does it say it's a prophets job to translate.


However it does say that he is responsible to make know God's will. If God's will is in ancient text, then they would need to be translated. That task was given to Joseph Smith by God.


By the urim and thummim. Have you ever researched the Urim and Thummim? I suggest you read Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The Urim and Thummim Joseph used definitely wasn't the same one talked about in the Bible.

And did you know he used seer stones, more often then he used the Urim and Thummim? Did you know he found these stones before he claimed to see his first vision? Did you know that he used these stones to divine the location of Gold and other precious metals?

Did you know that the Urim and Thummim made spelling and grammar mistakes? I'd've thought the power of God would have been a bit more accurate.

Divination, false urim and thummim, seer stones.... Even by the definition you gave, sounds an awful lot like a false prophet.

Quote:
sheehandan
And how could Joseph have been a preacher of righteousness? He would send men away on missions, and marry their wives. Often times, the men would come back to find their own wives pregnant with Joseph's baby. This is all properly documented and rather easy to find original copies of these documents.


Find me the documents. Mail them to me. Show me the results of genetic tests on babies that say they share the same DNA as Joseph Smith. Show me the unadulterated copies of journals of these people who make these claims. Give me their names. Show me their pictures. Show me pictures of these children, next to one of Joseph Smith. Find birth records for these babies. Find me anything that isn't just an in quotation with ... in front and behind it that can tell me that irrefutably Joseph Smith sent men on missions and slept with their wives. Until you do that, you're blowing hot air. Because that's exactly the kind of thing that people say when they want you to believe them, but can't get your attention without saying something blunt in a loud voice.


There is enough historical evidence to hold up in a court of law. You are asking the impossible, and that makes you not only annoying, but stupid and blind to fact. Go to a library, and do some research. Sources are listed, look them up. I did.

If you don't trust the quotes with elipses, look up the full context of the quote. I can assure you, they're all perfectly in context.

http://journals.mormonfundamentalism.org/ Here is an online copy of the journal of discourses. It's a mormon publication. You can cross reference all the quotes there.

Quote:
And..about the swearing and name calling. You are violating the agreement you signed to use Gaia at all. You're arguments are filled with not only your desire to prove your point, but your desire to make me feel stupid, ignorant, or just plain upset. You can't do it, and if you post one single swear in reply to this you will be reported to the mods. I don't care what you say about Joseph Smith, because I believe in him. I have that testimony. But you don't have the right to flame me for doing so. Notice that I am not using a single swear? I don't need to resort to petty swearing in order to make my voice heard. In fact, I don't need to be heard at all. There is nothing you can say to make me change my mind, and I think it very likely the same can be said of you people who are against my church.

If you're going to hate me for what I believe in, do it with some dignity and show me that you can argue without swearing, or any form of insulting.


******** off.

Have you ever read the TOS? I am in no way violating any rules or agreements. It is a public forum, that you have chosen to look at and post on. Part of that means reading what other people have to say. Don't like it? Dont' come here, asswipe. Otherwise, welcome to real life. Take a number, take a seat, and go ******** yourself.
Takai_desu_yo
I have no idea what the ******** you're saying. Do you speak English?


Gaia is supposed to be about fun, and M+R is about debating issues in a friendly manner. I don't want to lose that. I'm not having fun. And we're not debating. you're flaming me. So there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Instead I have a question for you. I was just wondering, if you follow any kind of religion yourself? ((This is a serious question, I really am curious))
Laniston
Takai_desu_yo
I have no idea what the ******** you're saying. Do you speak English?


Gaia is supposed to be about fun, and M+R is about debating issues in a friendly manner. I don't want to lose that. I'm not having fun. And we're not debating. you're flaming me. So there's no point in continuing this discussion.
Discussion isn't always friendly. Sometimes, it's downright cruel. You just need to realize, there are people outside of your little hovel that are going to disagree with you. Deal.
Laniston

Instead I have a question for you. I was just wondering, if you follow any kind of religion yourself? ((This is a serious question, I really am curious))
Yes, I follow Christianity. Non-Denominational. Bash it if you please, I've heard many attempts. Doubt you'll get far though. Just realize, this Thread is on the Topic of Mormonism, not ND's.
Laniston
Takai_desu_yo
I have no idea what the ******** you're saying. Do you speak English?


Gaia is supposed to be about fun, and M+R is about debating issues in a friendly manner. I don't want to lose that. I'm not having fun. And we're not debating. you're flaming me. So there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Instead I have a question for you. I was just wondering, if you follow any kind of religion yourself? ((This is a serious question, I really am curious))


M&R isn't about debating issues in a friendly manner, it's about discussing morality and religion, extendedly. We are still debating, but you're being an ignorant cuntscrape and ignoring all fact and logic thrown your way. Your coutner-arguments are logical fallacies. Admit you lose.

And I am christian.
Takai_desu_yo
Laniston
Takai_desu_yo
I have no idea what the ******** you're saying. Do you speak English?


Gaia is supposed to be about fun, and M+R is about debating issues in a friendly manner. I don't want to lose that. I'm not having fun. And we're not debating. you're flaming me. So there's no point in continuing this discussion.
Discussion isn't always friendly. Sometimes, it's downright cruel. You just need to realize, there are people outside of your little hovel that are going to disagree with you. Deal.
Laniston

Instead I have a question for you. I was just wondering, if you follow any kind of religion yourself? ((This is a serious question, I really am curious))
Yes, I follow Christianity. Non-Denominational. Bash it if you please, I've heard many attempts. Doubt you'll get far though. Just realize, this Thread is on the Topic of Mormonism, not ND's.


big difference between disagreeing and being hostile. You are hostile. Sheehan is hostile. There is no need for it.

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1. upload, post, email, graphically portray, or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, racist or otherwise objectionable.


sheehandan
Laniston
Do you always need to use swears to make "intelligent arguments".
Yes, bitchcock.


Takai_desu_yo
Oh, It's ******** Hilarious. I'm laughing my a** off. The fact that you are such an Idiot is actually quite humurous to me.


[********! You just got logic raped!
[********!

My uncle was a bishop. Now he's not. He's still alive. ******** YOUR WRONG AGAIN!

sheehandan
You know what? I did that. You know what God told me? He said that Joseph Smith was an a*****e, and that your entire religion was bunk.

Terms of service

Quote:
While using the GAIA Online Experience, the User may not:

1. upload, post, email, graphically portray, or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, racist or otherwise objectionable.


Takai_desu_yo
no, actually. It doesn't say anyware in the ******** TOS that swearing is unallowed. And ******** actually reported this ******** thread for the exact same ******** thing around 50 ******** pages ago. Noraboo was ******** pissed at them for wasting her time. So ******** shove it, and read the ******** rules before you ******** try and tell us to follow them.

[******** you.
takai_desu_yo
thus you say, telling us that our way of speech is undignifying. I believe that is an Insult. Though, lemme guess, that's just my Opinion? You really like Hitler, I've noticed...


did you catch the bold parts? what does being vulgar mean?

here's the best one.

sheehandan
Have you ever read the TOS? I am in no way violating any rules or agreements. It is a public forum, that you have chosen to look at and post on. Part of that means reading what other people have to say. Don't like it? Dont' come here, asswipe. Otherwise, welcome to real life. Take a number, take a seat, and go ******** yourself.


Terms of service
Quote:
13. Make any threats - real or otherwise - of any sort regarding other Users or the GAIA Online Service


sheehandan
Now, shut the ******** up, before I beat you to death with the "stupid a*****e" stick
Takai_desu_yo
Yes, I follow Christianity. Non-Denominational. Bash it if you please, I've heard many attempts. Doubt you'll get far though. Just realize, this Thread is on the Topic of Mormonism, not ND's.


Actually I totally respect that. Believe it or not I respect you as well. Even after the way you've treated me.
I'm kinda angry right now, but I feel like talking anyways.

sheehandan
By the urim and thummim. Have you ever researched the Urim and Thummim? I suggest you read Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The Urim and Thummim Joseph used definitely wasn't the same one talked about in the Bible.


you're right they aren't the same. These stones are talked about in the book of mormon. A man called the brother of Jared had been told to build barges with which to cross the ocean. The barges had to be sealed, and so the brother of Jared was trying to find a light source that wouldn't go out with all the movement of the ships. He gathered some clean white stones, and it says he asked Christ to touch them, so that they would glow and give light. Christ did so, revealing his image to the brother of Jared.

Two of these stones are the Urim and Thummim Joseph had.
Laniston
<Insert bullshit about TOS here>


rolleyes

Have you reported me, then? Go ahead, then. If I'm breaking so many rules of the TOS, why haven't I been banned? I've said much worse things to people who have reported before.

Deal with it, b***h.
sheehandan
Laniston
<Insert bullshit about TOS here>


rolleyes

Have you reported me, then? Go ahead, then. If I'm breaking so many rules of the TOS, why haven't I been banned? I've said much worse things to people who have reported before.

Deal with it, b***h.


smile
Laniston
I'm kinda angry right now, but I feel like talking anyways.

sheehandan
By the urim and thummim. Have you ever researched the Urim and Thummim? I suggest you read Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The Urim and Thummim Joseph used definitely wasn't the same one talked about in the Bible.


you're right they aren't the same. These stones are talked about in the book of mormon. A man called the brother of Jared had been told to build barges with which to cross the ocean. The barges had to be sealed, and so the brother of Jared was trying to find a light source that wouldn't go out with all the movement of the ships. He gathered some clean white stones, and it says he asked Christ to touch them, so that they would glow and give light. Christ did so, revealing his image to the brother of Jared.

Two of these stones are the Urim and Thummim Joseph had.


Perhaps those were his seer stones, but the urim and thummim is described as a breastplate, with something similar to spectacles attatched to them. So no, those glowing stones were not the urim and thummim.

Also, you got the story wrong. God the Father touched the stones. That story happened about 1.3k years before christ's birth, and thus his physical body.

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