Welcome to Gaia! ::


Lucky~9~Lives
Brothern
I (personally) would never want eternal life. The idea sounds just awful. Meaning in my life is made by experience. Experience that begins and ends. An experience that has no ending is not pleasurable nor meaningful, but soul-destroying monotony.


The idea sounds like an eternal succession of experience.

Well you both get it, whether you like it or not.
Brothern
The fear.
There is no fear, this is just the cliched atheist propaganda that religion/faith is based on fear.

It's actually desire. Man has an innate desire for that transcendent, larger-than-him existence. Man wants the divine in his life and he looks for it constantly.
Kaworu 17
Brothern
The fear.
There is no fear, this is just the cliched atheist propaganda that religion/faith is based on fear.

It's actually desire. Man has an innate desire for that transcendent, larger-than-him existence. Man wants the divine in his life and he looks for it constantly.


OP says he lacks the fear; does he then lack that innate desire?
LoveLoud837
Well you both get it, whether you like it or not.

Eh. That's what you've been taught by man-made religion. Despite it -- eternal life is not evident or observable anywhere in the world or the material universe, nor does it sound all that terribly desirable even if there was evidence supporting its existence.

Kaworu 17
Brothern
The fear.
There is no fear, this is just the cliched atheist propaganda that religion/faith is based on fear. It's actually desire. Man has an innate desire for that transcendent, larger-than-him existence. Man wants the divine in his life and he looks for it constantly.

Oh man, I don't think that's at all true. How would we make sense of the things we value -- like love, achievements, desire, experience, friends -- if we were disembodied?
Brothern
How would we make sense of the things we value -- like love, achievements, desire, experience, friends -- if we were disembodied?
I don't understand your answer. What does being "disembodied" have to do with man's thirst for something greater than him which fulfills him?
Lucky~9~Lives
Kaworu 17
Brothern
The fear.
There is no fear, this is just the cliched atheist propaganda that religion/faith is based on fear.

It's actually desire. Man has an innate desire for that transcendent, larger-than-him existence. Man wants the divine in his life and he looks for it constantly.


OP says he lacks the fear; does he then lack that innate desire?
I believe he has merely suppressed it through effort.
Kaworu 17
Brothern
How would we make sense of the things we value -- like love, achievements, desire, experience, friends -- if we were disembodied?
I don't understand your answer. What does being "disembodied" have to do with man's thirst for something greater than him which fulfills him?

You've stated that man has an innate desire for a transcendent, larger-than-him existence.

Yet I'd argue that everything we value is rooted in our interaction with the world. Be that love, achievements, desire, knowledge, experience or friends. Everything. If we are disembodied or are beings that innately seek transcendence, what we value can no longer be appreciated. It is lost.

We lose what makes us human.

So I don't believe the claim that man has an innate desire for such things. It's silly on a closer look, unless it is viewed through a lens of a religion that is trying to argue for the existence of something that is both immaterial and unproven.
Kaworu 17
Lucky~9~Lives
Kaworu 17
There is no fear, this is just the cliched atheist propaganda that religion/faith is based on fear.

It's actually desire. Man has an innate desire for that transcendent, larger-than-him existence. Man wants the divine in his life and he looks for it constantly.


OP says he lacks the fear; does he then lack that innate desire?
I believe he has merely suppressed it through effort.


He did imply he values his experiences for their finitude i.e. that something transcends them.
Brothern
You've stated that man has an innate desire for a transcendent, larger-than-him existence.
Yes, and by that existence I mean God, not that the ultimate end of man's desire is to be a pure spirit.
Kaworu 17
Brothern
You've stated that man has an innate desire for a transcendent, larger-than-him existence.
Yes, and by that existence I mean God, not that the ultimate end of man's desire is to be a pure spirit.

Even so. How have entire civilizations existed, and how do entire culture exist today, where there is no concept of a monotheistic God or an all-powerful deity in them? It's not like entire swaths of India just don't exist. ... and at the same time, why is it that in cultures where this idea is prevalent, they are all slowly become more secularized and godless?

Which in before the "it's all sin!", why is it that in the face of this secularization, the world is possibly the most peaceful it has ever been in human history?

I think it's you trying to have your cake and eat it too. Man is innately desiring of God, so that justifies your beliefs, but man is innately sinful, so that justifies everyone else not having your belief.
Brothern
Even so. How have entire civilizations existed, and how do entire culture exist today, where there is no concept of a monotheistic God or an all-powerful deity in them?
It doesn't matter if they have not reached that advanced level of monotheism, all cultures until recently have developed beliefs and practices centered on the desire to know and be close with the divine, the metaphysical, the transcendent.

Brothern
and at the same time, why is it that in cultures where this idea is prevalent, they are all slowly become more secularized and godless?
Human effort. Man going against his nature.

Brothern
why is it that in the face of this secularization, the world is possibly the most peaceful it has ever been in human history?
I'm sorry but that's just not right. Look at how many armed conflicts took place in the 20th century. We even had not one but two world wars, in the century of secularization.

Brothern
Man is innately desiring of God, so that justifies your beliefs, but man is innately sinful, so that justifies everyone else not having your belief.
Please don't try to strawman my beliefs as if I were some cliched, evangelical loony which thinks that all non-Christian religions are the result of the devil's machinations. I don't think they are.
Brothern


I believe than you CAN have a back and forth with God. I believe that God speaks to a prophet on the earth today, and that every person is entitled to personal revelation if they pray with a sincere heart and real intent. I believe that, through the restored gospel, all can learn of God's nature, not as a mysterious unworldly being, but as our Father, who loves us, and who communicates with us in a very real way.

It was right of you to leave your church if you were feeling such doubt--following a religion without personal testimony can be destructive--but that kind of doubt does not need to accompany faith. A strong testimony is not based on the preaching of pastors, it is based on strong personal witness from God of the truth of his gospel. I have felt it. If you still wish to, you can feel it too.

(FYI: I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)
LoveLoud837
Going without the bible is going on a stray path.


Did I say to go without the bible? I believe I said specifically "Please note that I am not saying that "dusty, archaic books" - bible or otherwise - are useless. I greatly enjoy studying dusty archaic books for any scrap of knowledge or understanding!!" I would say those are greatly different things.

No hate if it was just a simple misunderstanding naturally. I attempt to choose my words carefully to avoid misunderstandings like this. Please take note of what I am actually saying, because I would not be saying it if I did not hope it might be beneficial. smile

LoveLoud837
If you think you are a better Christian because you don't read the bible and take to modern theology, there's a problem.


As above, please read what is actually written and stated. Nothing of the sort is implied or intended. To the point, though.

I would assume you would agree that idolatry is a bad thing, correct? Not all idolatry involves a statue of Zeus. Just as I would state that money is probably one of the most commonly worshiped idols of our generation, a surprising number of Christians seem to have switched from God-worship to bible-worship. I'm not even stating that you are one of these, as I do not know you. However, phrases like "Refusing the bible is refusing God" imply a direct correlation between a book and God being equal. Now this could easily have just been a poor language choice, a simple failure of the English language to adequately portray what you are saying. As stated, I am not assuming anything about you personally. However, given the number of folks that I have seen stumble based upon faulty logic like that, it appeared valuable to point out the danger of misleading phrasing.

LoveLoud837
Proverbs would call you the 'foolish man.'


Based upon what, exactly? So far all of your quotes seem to have focused on things I have not even said, rather than what I did say. So on one side, have you even understood my point enough to evaluate it yet? Perhaps more importantly however - why do you feel the need to judge me at all? I'm sure I don't need to quote to you all the places that the bible speaks against judging your fellow man.
Brothern
LoveLoud837
Well you both get it, whether you like it or not.

Eh. That's what you've been taught by man-made religion. Despite it -- eternal life is not evident or observable anywhere in the world or the material universe, nor does it sound all that terribly desirable even if there was evidence supporting its existence.


My friend, ignorance doesn't suffice at the judgment seat, you are without excuse (Romans 1:20-21)

And there isn't any way possible that Christianity could just be a religion made by man. The correlations of things that occurred in history that have been prophecized are like no other. And if it was just a religion made to make people do the right thing and make society keep order, it would fail in every way possible. That is because it is built on solely faith, and grace by faith. Grace by faith and nothing can separate from God's love. It is seriously too divine to be made up.
LoveLoud837
It is seriously too divine to be made up.


No it isn't.

Quick Reply

Submit
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum