Doubt

[Brothern]

I was a doubter as a believer. The mental discord, I think, was much more motivated by the assertions of religion. The fear. That someone is always watching you or judging you. That you're flitting on the edge of spending eternity in hell or punishment. That you are condemned as a sinner if you are not better.

... and that there's no resolution to that; i.e. you CANNOT have a back and forth with God. At most times in your life you cannot readily find God's presence outside of a tiny inkling or a hunch. That you must 'trust' or 'have faith,' and can never verify because God is mysterious and unworldly. There's no confirmation of the merit of your choices, outside of what some pastor is able to divine from a dusty, archaic book.

As a nonbeliever, I'm definitely not a doubter. There's no constant, biting fear. When I die, I will die. The judgement is on my legacy and my character, which is decided by both myself and anyone in this world who has looked at my merits. There is resolution in that. I can easily ask -- my boss, my family, my friends, etc. -- if who I am is a upstanding and decent person. I can admit my faults instead of having to hide it. I can find out how and where to improve myself, instead of trying to take a stab in the dark at what a mysterious 'god' wants me to be.

When it comes to the existence of God, as a nonbeliever, it's not important and thus does not drive any doubt. The existence of God doesn't determine my eternal fate, instead my actions and thoughts in this world do, so there's no doubt. Instead for me the existence of God is an intellectual curiosity and interest.

I am so much more content and a much better person as a nonbeliever than I was as a believer.

Comments, thoughts, your own perspective on doubt?

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Brothern

I can easily ask -- my boss, my family, my friends, etc. -- if who I am is a upstanding and decent person.

What makes you think your boss, your family, your friends, etc, are not yanking your chain?

[Fermionic]

I often doubt, but I do not fear.

[Aran of Vengerid]

I kind of use doubt as a way of self betterment.

I don't know if I can do this.
Why not? What's wrong? What needs to change?

Then self improvement.

Otherwise, my anxiety uses doubt against me.
I'm afraid to fail in social situations so much, that I do not engage people socially anymore.
There was always doubt as to my performance socially, how I am to behave/speak around others.

[Aporeia]

What is man without his doubts? Assurance is like a plague that eats at the soul, making us act without thought of unseen consequence. I question the individual that lives their life without doubt. Doubt is wisdom creeping its way in. To act without it, I feel, is to act carelessly.

I, perhaps daily, doubt my beliefs, but remember my experiences. I doubt my perception, but remember my sanity. I doubt even that, and what have I to trust?

But... despite my doubts, I don't need to verify these things to anyone but myself.

[Samadhi23]

Brothern

Comments, thoughts, your own perspective on doubt?

As an avid fan of R.A.W.'s viewpoint of expanding the agnostic principle, essentially applying agnosticism to everything, I must say that I personally hold a high regard for the principle of doubt. However, I also don't find doubt to be an antithesis of faith, as many do. Rather, I think doubt is a necessary component of faith. For one, if you fully accept something as a belief, that is not faith. Faith requires there to be doubt remaining, but to move forward anyway. If one has no doubt, then one has moved beyond faith to belief. Similarly, one can believe in anything with limited connection to reality. Faith, however, requires something stronger - for example having diminished doubts through direct testing. Otherwise it would better fit under the name of blind faith than just faith.

Brothern

... and that there's no resolution to that; i.e. you CANNOT have a back and forth with God. At most times in your life you cannot readily find God's presence outside of a tiny inkling or a hunch. That you must 'trust' or 'have faith,' and can never verify because God is mysterious and unworldly. There's no confirmation of the merit of your choices, outside of what some pastor is able to divine from a dusty, archaic book....

This section strikes me as quite interesting, as I think it ties in with a lot of the reasons why the traditions of the last millennium are failing. Namely, the worship of archaic books rather than the direct pursuit of opening oneself to the divine.

A mystic would never make such a claim as that you cannot have a back and forth with the divine. [Substituted "divine" for "God" in your post so as to avoid presuming specific definitions of divinity.] Since they actively pursue unity with the divine, they might have a laundry list of the problems and difficulties of such contact, as well as methods of attempting contact. Whether they have made contact or not though, they certainly don't "just accept" or blindly believe that it is impossible just because many people say it is.

Prophets often go a step forward; claiming divine contact in a myriad of forms. Perhaps most interestingly, when the traditionalism of a prophet's religion is set aside, there are certain consistencies that remain without any cultural explanation. Now this could certainly be an investigation more on the order of collective psychology than divinity in the "magic-sense" generally portrayed by american culture as the only type possible (a deliberate misdirection IMO). What it is, however, is something that can most definitely be studied by everyone.* In other words, it is not an impossibility, even though we may not yet have the language to say what it actually is.



*(There is some argument that the use of everyone here is incorrect, for various reasons. I fully admit to the possibility of this; but ascribe it more to the model based upon learning. Eric might be more prone to working on calculus, and Jane might be more prone to art; but that doesn't mean it is *impossible" for them to learn each others' trades. It is just more difficult.)

[Sugarbeary]

Brothern

I was a doubter as a believer. The mental discord, I think, was much more motivated by the assertions of religion. The fear. That someone is always watching you or judging you. That you're flitting on the edge of spending eternity in hell or punishment. That you are condemned as a sinner if you are not better.

You must not be discussing a Christianity faith then. Christians have certainty that they are saved. They rejoice in the grace of God, that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.

Quote:

... and that there's no resolution to that; i.e. you CANNOT have a back and forth with God.

You can. that's how grace works. You do something wrong, and you have grace and forgiveness. Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now you'll learn that there is sanctification, the continual growth in Christ to become more Christ-like that changes you for the better and you continue to become more moral and make less mistakes and have a stronger conscience. Yet, nothing can separate you from God's love if you receive it.

Quote:

At most times in your life you cannot readily find God's presence outside of a tiny inkling or a hunch. That you must 'trust' or 'have faith,' and can never verify because God is mysterious and unworldly.

Psalm 119:105
Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.

You read the word, which as a believer lives inside of you, and on paper. He guides your path.

Quote:

There's no confirmation of the merit of your choices, outside of what some pastor is able to divine from a dusty, archaic book.

Refusing the bible is refusing God. The dusty, archaic book has a lot more credibility than you're giving it. A lot more.

Quote:

As a nonbeliever, I'm definitely not a doubter. There's no constant, biting fear. When I die, I will die.

And live forever in hell, only to be pulled to worship God as the savior.

Philippians 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

and then thrown into a second death, a second hell.
Revelation 21:8

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Quote:

The judgement is on my legacy and my character, which is decided by both myself and anyone in this world who has looked at my merits.

And God.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

That 'or bad' part, you don't want that. Because God is perfect, and comparing yourself to a perfect standard and being judged on it will not result in good results.

Quote:

There is resolution in that. I can easily ask -- my boss, my family, my friends, etc. -- if who I am is a upstanding and decent person.

Asking imperfect people if you are good will have very skewed results.

Quote:

I can admit my faults instead of having to hide it. I can find out how and where to improve myself, instead of trying to take a stab in the dark at what a mysterious 'god' wants me to be.

You don't take a stab in the dark if you have the word of God. Being saved has the word of God living inside you to direct your path. I'm repeating myself but I'll repeat myself as much as I need to.

Quote:

When it comes to the existence of God, as a nonbeliever, it's not important and thus does not drive any doubt. The existence of God doesn't determine my eternal fate, instead my actions and thoughts in this world do, so there's no doubt.

You better bet it actually does.

Quote:

Instead for me the existence of God is an intellectual curiosity and interest.

I am so much more content and a much better person as a nonbeliever than I was as a believer.

Comments, thoughts, your own perspective on doubt?

Sure, Living a life without God may tickle your fancy now, but this life is but a vapor. It will quickly fade, but eternal life will not. An eternity, which quotes Jesus in Matthew 13:42 "They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," does not sound as appealing as losing 3 hours on a Sunday and allowing God to direct my path.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Samadhi23

However, I also don't find doubt to be an antithesis of faith, as many do.

Is there something you do find to be the antithesis of faith?

[Samadhi23]

LoveLoud837

Quote:

There's no confirmation of the merit of your choices, outside of what some pastor is able to divine from a dusty, archaic book.

Refusing the bible is refusing God.

This appears to be one of the biggest pieces of misinformation in Christianity today, or at least the versions of Christianity most common in the US. Although God most definitely has the ability to speak through a book - a lot of modern Christians have taken this point to the extreme. Lacking any attempt to create or develop a direct relationship with God, they instead make an idol out of the bible and attempt to piece together an entire spirituality from words - not truth.

Please note that I am not saying that "dusty, archaic books" - bible or otherwise - are useless. I greatly enjoy studying dusty archaic books for any scrap of knowledge or understanding!! biggrin No matter how divinely inspired a book may be, however, it is not synonymous with God. I have seen far too many Christians go down the road of self-delusion by elevating the bible above God himself using logic just like "Refusing the bible is refusing God." The map is not the actual. It was never intended to be, as Jesus made perfectly clear when chastising the pharisees by obsessing over laws instead of moving forward to embrace truth.

[Samadhi23]

Lucky~9~Lives

Samadhi23

However, I also don't find doubt to be an antithesis of faith, as many do.

Is there something you do find to be the antithesis of faith?

Intriguing question. I often posited Faith as the middle ground choice of the fight or flight mechanism. The ability to dispense with the need for the classical knee jerk extremes ingrained by one's particular combination of nature/nurture but rather to move as one chooses freely. Although nothing came to mind offhand, after a few re-writes of this response I think maybe Panic would be the best antithesis. Becoming so overwhelmed as to be unable to function, effectively.

[Brothern]

LoveLoud837

You must not be discussing a Christianity faith then. Christians have certainty that they are saved. They rejoice in the grace of God, that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.
You can. that's how grace works. You do something wrong, and you have grace and forgiveness.

People like that are afraid.

LoveLoud837

You read the word, which as a believer lives inside of you, and on paper. He guides your path ... Refusing the bible is refusing God. The dusty, archaic book has a lot more credibility than you're giving it. A lot more.

On the contrary I enjoy the Bible, but as a literary and intellectual interest. It's not a very true book and careful historical and literary analysis of it shows that it is no more mystical that the Vedas or the Qur'an.

There's a wealth of knowledge and meaning that this world has given us. Brilliant, wonderful people with amazing pursuits and character. Why would I sacrifice all of that for something that was written by illiterate Iron age nomads?

LoveLoud837

Sure, Living a life without God may tickle your fancy now, but this life is but a vapor. It will quickly fade, but eternal life will not. An eternity, which quotes Jesus in Matthew 13:42 "They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," does not sound as appealing as losing 3 hours on a Sunday and allowing God to direct my path.

I (personally) would never want eternal life. The idea sounds just awful. Meaning in my life is made by experience. Experience that begins and ends. An experience that has no ending is not pleasurable nor meaningful, but soul-destroying monotony. Rather, I'm glad that my happiness emerges from my participation in this world, and the joys and beauties and the challenges and tragedies in human life. Even my appreciation of the inevitably of death. Never would I hope to cling to something as meaningless as immortality.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Brothern

I (personally) would never want eternal life. The idea sounds just awful. Meaning in my life is made by experience. Experience that begins and ends. An experience that has no ending is not pleasurable nor meaningful, but soul-destroying monotony.

The idea sounds like an eternal succession of experience.

[Peace N Cupcakes]

LoveLoud837

Brothern

I was a doubter as a believer. The mental discord, I think, was much more motivated by the assertions of religion. The fear. That someone is always watching you or judging you. That you're flitting on the edge of spending eternity in hell or punishment. That you are condemned as a sinner if you are not better.

You must not be discussing a Christianity faith then. Christians have certainty that they are saved. They rejoice in the grace of God, that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.

Quote:

... and that there's no resolution to that; i.e. you CANNOT have a back and forth with God.

You can. that's how grace works. You do something wrong, and you have grace and forgiveness. Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now you'll learn that there is sanctification, the continual growth in Christ to become more Christ-like that changes you for the better and you continue to become more moral and make less mistakes and have a stronger conscience. Yet, nothing can separate you from God's love if you receive it.

Quote:

At most times in your life you cannot readily find God's presence outside of a tiny inkling or a hunch. That you must 'trust' or 'have faith,' and can never verify because God is mysterious and unworldly.

Psalm 119:105
Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.

You read the word, which as a believer lives inside of you, and on paper. He guides your path.

Quote:

There's no confirmation of the merit of your choices, outside of what some pastor is able to divine from a dusty, archaic book.

Refusing the bible is refusing God. The dusty, archaic book has a lot more credibility than you're giving it. A lot more.

Quote:

As a nonbeliever, I'm definitely not a doubter. There's no constant, biting fear. When I die, I will die.

And live forever in hell, only to be pulled to worship God as the savior.

Philippians 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

and then thrown into a second death, a second hell.
Revelation 21:8

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Quote:

The judgement is on my legacy and my character, which is decided by both myself and anyone in this world who has looked at my merits.

And God.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

That 'or bad' part, you don't want that. Because God is perfect, and comparing yourself to a perfect standard and being judged on it will not result in good results.

Quote:

There is resolution in that. I can easily ask -- my boss, my family, my friends, etc. -- if who I am is a upstanding and decent person.

Asking imperfect people if you are good will have very skewed results.

Quote:

I can admit my faults instead of having to hide it. I can find out how and where to improve myself, instead of trying to take a stab in the dark at what a mysterious 'god' wants me to be.

You don't take a stab in the dark if you have the word of God. Being saved has the word of God living inside you to direct your path. I'm repeating myself but I'll repeat myself as much as I need to.

Quote:

When it comes to the existence of God, as a nonbeliever, it's not important and thus does not drive any doubt. The existence of God doesn't determine my eternal fate, instead my actions and thoughts in this world do, so there's no doubt.

You better bet it actually does.

Quote:

Instead for me the existence of God is an intellectual curiosity and interest.

I am so much more content and a much better person as a nonbeliever than I was as a believer.

Comments, thoughts, your own perspective on doubt?

Sure, Living a life without God may tickle your fancy now, but this life is but a vapor. It will quickly fade, but eternal life will not. An eternity, which quotes Jesus in Matthew 13:42 "They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," does not sound as appealing as losing 3 hours on a Sunday and allowing God to direct my path.

Well said...where is the like button : )

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Sweet MistyC

LoveLoud837

Brothern

I was a doubter as a believer. The mental discord, I think, was much more motivated by the assertions of religion. The fear. That someone is always watching you or judging you. That you're flitting on the edge of spending eternity in hell or punishment. That you are condemned as a sinner if you are not better.

You must not be discussing a Christianity faith then. Christians have certainty that they are saved. They rejoice in the grace of God, that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.

Quote:

... and that there's no resolution to that; i.e. you CANNOT have a back and forth with God.

You can. that's how grace works. You do something wrong, and you have grace and forgiveness. Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now you'll learn that there is sanctification, the continual growth in Christ to become more Christ-like that changes you for the better and you continue to become more moral and make less mistakes and have a stronger conscience. Yet, nothing can separate you from God's love if you receive it.

Quote:

At most times in your life you cannot readily find God's presence outside of a tiny inkling or a hunch. That you must 'trust' or 'have faith,' and can never verify because God is mysterious and unworldly.

Psalm 119:105
Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.

You read the word, which as a believer lives inside of you, and on paper. He guides your path.

Quote:

There's no confirmation of the merit of your choices, outside of what some pastor is able to divine from a dusty, archaic book.

Refusing the bible is refusing God. The dusty, archaic book has a lot more credibility than you're giving it. A lot more.

Quote:

As a nonbeliever, I'm definitely not a doubter. There's no constant, biting fear. When I die, I will die.

And live forever in hell, only to be pulled to worship God as the savior.

Philippians 2:10-11
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

and then thrown into a second death, a second hell.
Revelation 21:8

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Quote:

The judgement is on my legacy and my character, which is decided by both myself and anyone in this world who has looked at my merits.

And God.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

That 'or bad' part, you don't want that. Because God is perfect, and comparing yourself to a perfect standard and being judged on it will not result in good results.

Quote:

There is resolution in that. I can easily ask -- my boss, my family, my friends, etc. -- if who I am is a upstanding and decent person.

Asking imperfect people if you are good will have very skewed results.

Quote:

I can admit my faults instead of having to hide it. I can find out how and where to improve myself, instead of trying to take a stab in the dark at what a mysterious 'god' wants me to be.

You don't take a stab in the dark if you have the word of God. Being saved has the word of God living inside you to direct your path. I'm repeating myself but I'll repeat myself as much as I need to.

Quote:

When it comes to the existence of God, as a nonbeliever, it's not important and thus does not drive any doubt. The existence of God doesn't determine my eternal fate, instead my actions and thoughts in this world do, so there's no doubt.

You better bet it actually does.

Quote:

Instead for me the existence of God is an intellectual curiosity and interest.

I am so much more content and a much better person as a nonbeliever than I was as a believer.

Comments, thoughts, your own perspective on doubt?

Sure, Living a life without God may tickle your fancy now, but this life is but a vapor. It will quickly fade, but eternal life will not. An eternity, which quotes Jesus in Matthew 13:42 "They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth," does not sound as appealing as losing 3 hours on a Sunday and allowing God to direct my path.

Well said...where is the like button : )

Next to the appropriate "Quote" button: "Tip Post".

[Sugarbeary]

Samadhi23

LoveLoud837

Quote:

There's no confirmation of the merit of your choices, outside of what some pastor is able to divine from a dusty, archaic book.

Refusing the bible is refusing God.

This appears to be one of the biggest pieces of misinformation in Christianity today, or at least the versions of Christianity most common in the US. Although God most definitely has the ability to speak through a book - a lot of modern Christians have taken this point to the extreme. Lacking any attempt to create or develop a direct relationship with God, they instead make an idol out of the bible and attempt to piece together an entire spirituality from words - not truth.

Please note that I am not saying that "dusty, archaic books" - bible or otherwise - are useless. I greatly enjoy studying dusty archaic books for any scrap of knowledge or understanding!! biggrin No matter how divinely inspired a book may be, however, it is not synonymous with God. I have seen far too many Christians go down the road of self-delusion by elevating the bible above God himself using logic just like "Refusing the bible is refusing God." The map is not the actual. It was never intended to be, as Jesus made perfectly clear when chastising the pharisees by obsessing over laws instead of moving forward to embrace truth.

Going without the bible is going on a stray path. If you think you are a better Christian because you don't read the bible and take to modern theology, there's a problem. Proverbs would call you the 'foolish man.'