Does Religon define society or vice versa

[SilenceofaSiren]

Are religons defined but our socitey or is the society defined by religon?

[maenad nuri]

how about both?

[Astenwroth]

I agree with Nuri on that one.. They have an effect on each other. From my LDS days you can actual see a difference when you cross from California, Oregon, Washington to other states.. Different cultures and different tolerances.

[Starlock]

To try to answer this in a scholarly fashion, first you have to ask this question - - -

Which came first: religion or society?

There probably isn't an answer that can ever be proven beyond simple speculation, as our pre-civilization ancestors didn't exactly keep records. I would speculate, though, that religion came before society. But first lets set up some operational defenitions for religion and society, as how both of these are defined strongly determine the kind of speculation you might make...

Religion = a system of belief which attempts to explain the world around you, usually adressing concepts of a higher being, how things came to be, and what happens when we die.

Society = an enduring and organized (usually some form of gov't) cooperative group of people who share lingual, cultural, and familial bonds.

By these operational defenitions, it is pretty easy to see why I think religion came before society. While I suppose you could stretch the defenition of society to also include small familial groups which were probably present in early humans, most of us probably wouldn't consider our family unit a 'society' in the modern day. Humans have probably always aimed to explain the world around them, far before they became organized. If you are speaking solely of organized religion, than society came first, but not all religions are organized.

[Shinji-Katawane]

first off Astenwroth what is LDS?

Ok. Society is effected by eleigion and the way religion is viewd and placed in a persons life is effected and changed by society.

It really depends on your view.

[Fiddlers Green]

Shinji-Katawane

first off Astenwroth what is LDS?

Ok. Society is effected by eleigion and the way religion is viewd and placed in a persons life is effected and changed by society.

It really depends on your view.

What my dear friend Astenwroth meant was Latter Day Saints, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, better known as Mormon.

I think they both effect each other, I mean look at what the Romans did to Christianity. Then look what the Christians did to Europe.

[Horosha]

I don't feel that religion is such a good word to use here because it usually denotes a rigid, ritualized worship, where true beliefs are alive and they grow inside of us and strengthen us. that is why i don't put my christianity in religion, if you look at every other "religion" in the world, at its core it is man trying to reach up and please their idea of god, and even then it isn't always sure that you'll make it into heaven or some form of paradise, whereas christianity (true christianity) is God reaching down to us, His creation, and desiring an intimate relationship with us (not in a sexual way or any weird way like that, but rather like a father son/daughter or best friend relationship). But in answering the question, Religion SHOULD define society and not be defined by it, unfortunately, most of the time that is not the case in today's world.

P.S. feel free to pm me if you have, comments, questions, hate mail, etc. cause i don't usually come to the extended discussions

[Deoridhe]

Horosha

if you look at every other "religion" in the world, at its core it is man trying to reach up and please their idea of god, and even then it isn't always sure that you'll make it into heaven or some form of paradise, whereas christianity (true christianity) is God reaching down to us, His creation, and desiring an intimate relationship with us (not in a sexual way or any weird way like that, but rather like a father son/daughter or best friend relationship).

Please clarify how former definition fits the Hindu, Jewish, Islamic, and Buddhist religions, please.

[~Lady Nightmare~]

SilenceofaSiren

Are religons defined but our socitey or is the society defined by religon?

In the beginning, society defined religion. Then religion changed the society. Then society changed the religion. Then religion changed the society. Then society changed the religion.

You get what I mean.

[Horosha]

Deoridhe

Horosha

if you look at every other "religion" in the world, at its core it is man trying to reach up and please their idea of god, and even then it isn't always sure that you'll make it into heaven or some form of paradise, whereas christianity (true christianity) is God reaching down to us, His creation, and desiring an intimate relationship with us (not in a sexual way or any weird way like that, but rather like a father son/daughter or best friend relationship).

Please clarify how former definition fits the Hindu, Jewish, Islamic, and Buddhist religions, please.

Well first off let me say that I may believe a lot of false things, I just wish I knew what they were so that I wouldn't believe them anymore, and if I am wrong show me where I am wrong and not just condeming me because i truly wish to understand. Anyways, if I am right, Islam believes that Allah will judge all men and allow those that please him to enter paradise, denoting a ritualistic religion. Buddhism basically looks at buddha as an enlightened being, not a god and seek to escape reincarnation. The branch Tripitaka of buddhism view that any gods that may exist are inconsequential and mortal. They seek to free themselves from all material possesions and worldly desires, yet some go so far as to Deify Buddha, which, according to buddhist philosophy focusing on such a god can lead to desire which leads to suffering and reincarnation. Hinduism also believes in reincarnation, but they believe in numerous gods. And they seek, through experience rather than logic and a real relationship with their idea of god(s), to escape reincarnation. Judaism believes in salvation through obeying the law of the old testament since they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as Savior, and the God of the old testament was vengeful and somewhat distant. I hope this clarifies my understanding, again if i am wrong please tell me and SHOW me where i am wrong to help me understand.

[SilenceofaSiren]

but how? religon is the worlds turning point but the society... i dont know i wonder if the things all start from religon

[Psilan]

So here's you're postulation:

Horosha

if you look at every other "religion" in the world, at its core it is man trying to reach up and please their idea of god, and even then it isn't always sure that you'll make it into heaven or some form of paradise, whereas christianity (true christianity) is God reaching down to us, His creation, and desiring an intimate relationship with us (not in a sexual way or any weird way like that, but rather like a father son/daughter or best friend relationship).

I'm not too clear on why other religions get quotations. (other "religion" wink - do they, for some reason, not fit what you think the word religion religion means? Moreover - what do you think religion means, and what is "real" Christianity? (Are you saying that Christians who disagree are "fake"? And do real Christians not try to please God? )

Quote:

Well first off let me say that I may believe a lot of false things, I just wish I knew what they were so that I wouldn't believe them anymore, and if I am wrong show me where I am wrong and not just condeming me because i truly wish to understand.

Okay then - let's see where this goes.

Quote:

Anyways, if I am right, Islam believes that Allah will judge all men and allow those that please him to enter paradise, denoting a ritualistic religion.

And that is different than Christianity... how, exactly? I mean, IF Allah specified in the Koran than the way to please him was through liturgy, then you might have something to go on. But I'm pretty sure he doesn't.
And further, I believe he specifies that the ways to please him are akin to Jesus' teachings on the subject - things like charity.

Quote:

Judaism believes in salvation through obeying the law of the old testament since they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as Savior, and the God of the old testament was vengeful and somewhat distant.

Really? You might want to clarify that with a Jewish person.

Quote:

Buddhism basically looks at buddha as an enlightened being, not a god and seek to escape reincarnation. The branch Tripitaka of buddhism view that any gods that may exist are inconsequential and mortal. They seek to free themselves from all material possesions and worldly desires, yet some go so far as to Deify Buddha, which, according to buddhist philosophy focusing on such a god can lead to desire which leads to suffering and reincarnation.

Which means (stay with me here) that since Bhuddism is devoid of gods as such, that those Buddhists aren't trying to please their god, since they don't exactly have one. Also, since reincarnation guarantees Nirvana eventually - the question is when.

Quote:

Hinduism also believes in reincarnation, but they believe in numerous gods. And they seek, through experience rather than logic and a real relationship with their idea of god(s), to escape reincarnation.

Quote:

... And? They're not reaching up and trying to please Brahmin, since that's an abstract concept. And again, escaping the cycle is a foregone conclusion - it's a question of when, not if.

[SilenceofaSiren]

Psilan

So here's you're postulation:

Horosha

if you look at every other "religion" in the world, at its core it is man trying to reach up and please their idea of god, and even then it isn't always sure that you'll make it into heaven or some form of paradise, whereas christianity (true christianity) is God reaching down to us, His creation, and desiring an intimate relationship with us (not in a sexual way or any weird way like that, but rather like a father son/daughter or best friend relationship).

I'm not too clear on why other religions get quotations. (other "religion" wink - do they, for some reason, not fit what you think the word religion religion means? Moreover - what do you think religion means, and what is "real" Christianity? (Are you saying that Christians who disagree are "fake"? And do real Christians not try to please God? )

Quote:

Well first off let me say that I may believe a lot of false things, I just wish I knew what they were so that I wouldn't believe them anymore, and if I am wrong show me where I am wrong and not just condeming me because i truly wish to understand.

Okay then - let's see where this goes.

Quote:

Anyways, if I am right, Islam believes that Allah will judge all men and allow those that please him to enter paradise, denoting a ritualistic religion.

And that is different than Christianity... how, exactly? I mean, IF Allah specified in the Koran than the way to please him was through liturgy, then you might have something to go on. But I'm pretty sure he doesn't.
And further, I believe he specifies that the ways to please him are akin to Jesus' teachings on the subject - things like charity.

Quote:

Judaism believes in salvation through obeying the law of the old testament since they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as Savior, and the God of the old testament was vengeful and somewhat distant.

Really? You might want to clarify that with a Jewish person.

Quote:

Buddhism basically looks at buddha as an enlightened being, not a god and seek to escape reincarnation. The branch Tripitaka of buddhism view that any gods that may exist are inconsequential and mortal. They seek to free themselves from all material possesions and worldly desires, yet some go so far as to Deify Buddha, which, according to buddhist philosophy focusing on such a god can lead to desire which leads to suffering and reincarnation.

Which means (stay with me here) that since Bhuddism is devoid of gods as such, that those Buddhists aren't trying to please their god, since they don't exactly have one. Also, since reincarnation guarantees Nirvana eventually - the question is when.

Quote:

Hinduism also believes in reincarnation, but they believe in numerous gods. And they seek, through experience rather than logic and a real relationship with their idea of god(s), to escape reincarnation.

Quote:

... And? They're not reaching up and trying to please Brahmin, since that's an abstract concept. And again, escaping the cycle is a foregone conclusion - it's a question of when, not if.

I'm confused....

[Psilan]

SilenceofaSiren

I'm confused....

Quote:

... About which part?

And, incedentally, I'm pretty sure we can say that society and religious establishment are in a give-and-take relationship, and it's not really possible to know which came first (unless you state that the one can't exist without the other)

[Deoridhe]

Horosha

Buddhism basically looks at buddha as an enlightened being, not a god and seek to escape reincarnation. The branch Tripitaka of buddhism view that any gods that may exist are inconsequential and mortal. They seek to free themselves from all material possesions and worldly desires, yet some go so far as to Deify Buddha, which, according to buddhist philosophy focusing on such a god can lead to desire which leads to suffering and reincarnation.

Here's one of the places where you have the right knowledge, but your desire to put all religions in one pattern blinds you to the differences between religions.

Buddha has said: If you meet a Buddha on the road, kill him. The ideal is complete nonattachment, which includes not being attached to a desire to please others. By definition, the Buddhist religion does not include obeying but rather self-release.

Even in the sects with Boddhisattvas (which would be the "deifying" of Buddha - Buddha being understood to be a title not a person) the goal is non-attachment. The Boddhisattvas (Dalai Lama is a good example) are here to help, but they can't do it for any of their followers nor will deification of them lead the followers to nonattachment because deification is attachment. In fact, arguably Boddhisattvas are bad examples because they are attached to the idea of helping others achieve enlightenment, and so are not completely nonattached.

And, I will note, the goal is not "heaven" but "nothing."

Horosha

Hinduism also believes in reincarnation, but they believe in numerous gods. And they seek, through experience rather than logic and a real relationship with their idea of god(s), to escape reincarnation.

Actually, there are three paths the Hindus can follow, if I recall my religion class properly. One is the path of devotion, one is the path of knowledge, and one is, I think, the path of aceticism. None of these involve obeying per say, however, and from my understanding of it, the gods are far less concerned with humans than humans are concerned with gods.

I may be projecting however; I'm a polytheist and, in my experience, they aren't much concerned with us. They don't mind a look in now and then, and perhaps a favor for proper compensation, but the relationships have different dynamics.

And, like with Buddhism, the goal is less paradise and more nothingness.

Horosha

Judaism believes in salvation through obeying the law of the old testament since they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as Savior, and the God of the old testament was vengeful and somewhat distant.

I do not believe YHWH comes of as distant to the Jews. Also, their idea of salvation seemed to be, from what the Rabbis I've spoken to have said, to be a lot less concrete than the common CHristian conceptualization. There is a model of reaching up to YHWH, but I'm not sure if pleasing him/her/it is exactly how it works. You'd have to ask a Jew, however; monotheistic religions confuse me.