Do Christians support Gods acceptance of slavery?

[haunting heaven]

Lady Kariel

These verses do not encourage or support slavery as we often perceive it. It’s important to remember that the type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was different from the harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected. It was also different from the harsh slavery endured by African Americans in the United States and United Kingdom. The type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was typically a way for people to pay off their debts. If they were deep in debt, they could sell themselves for a period of time in order to become free of debt.

This isn't the "typical" slavery. This is the slavery instituted for fellow male Hebrews.

Also, slavery on any level is wrong.

Quote:

There were times, however, when a debt could never be paid off, such as when one nation conquered another and made slaves of the captives (1 Sam 17:8–9).

Did you just... compare the forced capture of human beings as a debt that the captured owe?

Quote:

Even under those circumstances, Israelites were not allowed to impose harsh slavery upon their captives.

Except they are allowed to beat their slaves to death as long as the death doesn't occur right away.

Quote:

In verse 38, God reminded the Israelites that He delivered them from harsh bondage under the Egyptions. He certainly wanted them to remember the horrible years of suffering that they endured, and to treat their servants/slaves in a way that is kind.

HAVING SLAVES ISN'T KIND. FORCING PEOPLE INTO SLAVERY ISN'T KIND. BUYING PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN FORCED INTO SLAVERY ISN'T KIND. BEATING PEOPLE ISN'T KIND. RAPING PEOPLE ISN'T KIND.

Shall I go on?

Quote:

Typically, things that are considered good do not need rules or limitations. For instance, there is no limit on how kind you can be to others. There is no limit on how much fruit of the Spirit you can cultivate. God places limitations, or laws, on things that can be harmful to ourselves and others (see Galatians 5:19–25).

This is the most cop out excuse I've ever seen, especially since it allows for a situation in which slavery can be considered good.

Quote:

The Bible is full of limitations placed on harsh slavery. In Exodus 21:16, God condemns kidnapping and forced slavery.

Except for when he permits it in the case of capturing and forcing foreigners whose cities had just been rampaged.

Quote:

In this verse He says, “He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.”

This was in reference to the Hebrews. The male Hebrews, specifically.

Quote:

Verse 44 discusses slaves that they may already have from nations around them. They can be bought and sold. It doesn’t say to seek them out or have forced slavery.

What on earth makes you think that buying a slave that you personally didn't force to become a slave is somehow okay? Like, you do realize that most of the Americans who bought slaves didn't personally go to Africa to capture and transport the people in question?

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Hence it is not giving an endorsement of seeking new slaves or encouraging the slave trade.

Except it totally does because the Hebrews were allowed to make slaves of people they conquered. Also, buying slaves encourages the slave trade.

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At this point, the Israelites had just come out of slavery and were about to enter the Holy Land. They shouldn’t have had many servants. Also, this doesn’t restrict other people in cultures around them from selling themselves as bondservants.

"Selling themselves"? Please stop.

Quote:

But as discussed already there are passages for the proper and godly treatment of servants/slaves.

Passages that include how to beat a slave to death and get away with it on a technicality. Yeah. We've read them.

Quote:

For a New Testament example of slavery, let’s look at the story of Paul and Onesimus. Onesimus, a slave, had escaped from Philemon, his owner. Paul shared the gospel with Onesimus, who became a Christian! Over the course of time, Onesimus returned to Philemon with a letter from Paul. In the letter, Paul pleads with Philemon to receive Onesimus back as if he were Paul himself, not as a slave but as a brother. Paul also takes the responsibility for any debt that Onesimus might owe upon himself personally.

Except he made a slave return to the man who owned him. And that really isn't morally defensible.

Edit: Also, do you ever just answer a question or do you always just copy and paste without citing your source?

[Avgvsto]

Sir Kyle of Elsewhere

Do Christians really support this? This is straight from their "benevolent" creator. If you truly follow God, then I hope you are happy following his sadistic side.

Is slavery sadistic?

[stealthmongoose]

Avgvsto

Sir Kyle of Elsewhere

Do Christians really support this? This is straight from their "benevolent" creator. If you truly follow God, then I hope you are happy following his sadistic side.

Is slavery sadistic?

Is negligence sadistic?

[Arcoon Effox]

IronySandwich

...a bunch of quibbling about how that was just "part of the times"

Isn't it funny how Christians try to explain away horrible verses by "putting them in historical context", then talk about their God's absolute, objective morality... all while criticizing the idea of moral relativism?

~~~

Lady Kariel

It’s important to remember that the type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was different from the harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected.

...(God) certainly wanted (the Israelites) to remember the horrible years of suffering that they endured

Um, yeah, so that "harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected" never actually happened... along with most of the rest of the Exodus narrative.

(I figured that somebody who copy-pasted their defense of Biblical slavery from Answers in Genesis is probably unaware of this, so I thought I should tell you.)

[Sir Kyle of Elsewhere]

Arcoon Effox

IronySandwich

...a bunch of quibbling about how that was just "part of the times"

Isn't it funny how Christians try to explain away horrible verses by "putting them in historical context", then talk about their God's absolute, objective morality... all while criticizing the idea of moral relativism?

~~~

Lady Kariel

It’s important to remember that the type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was different from the harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected.

...(God) certainly wanted (the Israelites) to remember the horrible years of suffering that they endured

Um, yeah, so that "harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected" never actually happened... along with most of the rest of the Exodus narrative.

(I figured that somebody who copy-pasted their defense of Biblical slavery from Answers in Genesis is probably unaware of this, so I thought I should tell you.)

Exodus isn't the only book that talks about it. So that's kind of an invalid point.

[Sir Kyle of Elsewhere]

Lady Kariel

These verses do not encourage or support slavery as we often perceive it. It’s important to remember that the type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was different from the harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected. It was also different from the harsh slavery endured by African Americans in the United States and United Kingdom. The type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was typically a way for people to pay off their debts. If they were deep in debt, they could sell themselves for a period of time in order to become free of debt.

There were times, however, when a debt could never be paid off, such as when one nation conquered another and made slaves of the captives (1 Sam 17:8–9). Even under those circumstances, Israelites were not allowed to impose harsh slavery upon their captives. In verse 38, God reminded the Israelites that He delivered them from harsh bondage under the Egyptions. He certainly wanted them to remember the horrible years of suffering that they endured, and to treat their servants/slaves in a way that is kind.

Typically, things that are considered good do not need rules or limitations. For instance, there is no limit on how kind you can be to others. There is no limit on how much fruit of the Spirit you can cultivate. God places limitations, or laws, on things that can be harmful to ourselves and others (see Galatians 5:19–25). The Bible is full of limitations placed on harsh slavery. In Exodus 21:16, God condemns kidnapping and forced slavery. In this verse He says, “He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.”

Verse 44 discusses slaves that they may already have from nations around them. They can be bought and sold. It doesn’t say to seek them out or have forced slavery. Hence it is not giving an endorsement of seeking new slaves or encouraging the slave trade. At this point, the Israelites had just come out of slavery and were about to enter the Holy Land. They shouldn’t have had many servants. Also, this doesn’t restrict other people in cultures around them from selling themselves as bondservants. But as discussed already there are passages for the proper and godly treatment of servants/slaves.

For a New Testament example of slavery, let’s look at the story of Paul and Onesimus. Onesimus, a slave, had escaped from Philemon, his owner. Paul shared the gospel with Onesimus, who became a Christian! Over the course of time, Onesimus returned to Philemon with a letter from Paul. In the letter, Paul pleads with Philemon to receive Onesimus back as if he were Paul himself, not as a slave but as a brother. Paul also takes the responsibility for any debt that Onesimus might owe upon himself personally.

Those verses aren't talking about indentured servitude. The bible even mentions that it's okay to kidnap your "slaves" from neighboring countries.

[Sir Kyle of Elsewhere]

Avgvsto

Sir Kyle of Elsewhere

Do Christians really support this? This is straight from their "benevolent" creator. If you truly follow God, then I hope you are happy following his sadistic side.

Is slavery sadistic?

Gee, I don't know. Is owning another persons life for the sole purpose of serving you not considered just a little ******** up to you?

[Arcoon Effox]

Sir Kyle of Elsewhere

Arcoon Effox

IronySandwich

...a bunch of quibbling about how that was just "part of the times"

Isn't it funny how Christians try to explain away horrible verses by "putting them in historical context", then talk about their God's absolute, objective morality... all while criticizing the idea of moral relativism?

~~~

Lady Kariel

It’s important to remember that the type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was different from the harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected.

...(God) certainly wanted (the Israelites) to remember the horrible years of suffering that they endured

Um, yeah, so that "harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected" never actually happened... along with most of the rest of the Exodus narrative.

(I figured that somebody who copy-pasted their defense of Biblical slavery from Answers in Genesis is probably unaware of this, so I thought I should tell you.)

Exodus isn't the only book that talks about it. So that's kind of an invalid point.

PLZ elaborate on what you mean by this.

[Sir Kyle of Elsewhere]

Arcoon Effox

Sir Kyle of Elsewhere

Arcoon Effox

IronySandwich

...a bunch of quibbling about how that was just "part of the times"

Isn't it funny how Christians try to explain away horrible verses by "putting them in historical context", then talk about their God's absolute, objective morality... all while criticizing the idea of moral relativism?

~~~

Lady Kariel

It’s important to remember that the type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was different from the harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected.

...(God) certainly wanted (the Israelites) to remember the horrible years of suffering that they endured

Um, yeah, so that "harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected" never actually happened... along with most of the rest of the Exodus narrative.

(I figured that somebody who copy-pasted their defense of Biblical slavery from Answers in Genesis is probably unaware of this, so I thought I should tell you.)

Exodus isn't the only book that talks about it. So that's kind of an invalid point.

PLZ elaborate on what you mean by this.

I'm just stating that Exodus isn't the only book of the bible that has examples of God endorsing slavery.

[Thee Magical Yuri Toaster]

The evidence is pretty overwhelming. Christians tend to just ignore stuff like that though. I mean...my whole view is if you do believe there is a God that is fine but how can you really believe the Bible is some moral book sent to guide us from that God with passages like the ones posted in it?
I would never ask anyone to give up a deeply cherished belief but my hope with these kinds of discussions is always just to get people to question the things they are taught in life. I think it is a healthy exercise of the mind that not enough people participate in.

[Oh stop]

Sir Kyle of Elsewhere

Lady Kariel

These verses do not encourage or support slavery as we often perceive it. It’s important to remember that the type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was different from the harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected. It was also different from the harsh slavery endured by African Americans in the United States and United Kingdom. The type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was typically a way for people to pay off their debts. If they were deep in debt, they could sell themselves for a period of time in order to become free of debt.

There were times, however, when a debt could never be paid off, such as when one nation conquered another and made slaves of the captives (1 Sam 17:8–9). Even under those circumstances, Israelites were not allowed to impose harsh slavery upon their captives. In verse 38, God reminded the Israelites that He delivered them from harsh bondage under the Egyptions. He certainly wanted them to remember the horrible years of suffering that they endured, and to treat their servants/slaves in a way that is kind.

Typically, things that are considered good do not need rules or limitations. For instance, there is no limit on how kind you can be to others. There is no limit on how much fruit of the Spirit you can cultivate. God places limitations, or laws, on things that can be harmful to ourselves and others (see Galatians 5:19–25). The Bible is full of limitations placed on harsh slavery. In Exodus 21:16, God condemns kidnapping and forced slavery. In this verse He says, “He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.”

Verse 44 discusses slaves that they may already have from nations around them. They can be bought and sold. It doesn’t say to seek them out or have forced slavery. Hence it is not giving an endorsement of seeking new slaves or encouraging the slave trade. At this point, the Israelites had just come out of slavery and were about to enter the Holy Land. They shouldn’t have had many servants. Also, this doesn’t restrict other people in cultures around them from selling themselves as bondservants. But as discussed already there are passages for the proper and godly treatment of servants/slaves.

For a New Testament example of slavery, let’s look at the story of Paul and Onesimus. Onesimus, a slave, had escaped from Philemon, his owner. Paul shared the gospel with Onesimus, who became a Christian! Over the course of time, Onesimus returned to Philemon with a letter from Paul. In the letter, Paul pleads with Philemon to receive Onesimus back as if he were Paul himself, not as a slave but as a brother. Paul also takes the responsibility for any debt that Onesimus might owe upon himself personally.

Those verses aren't talking about indentured servitude. The bible even mentions that it's okay to kidnap your "slaves" from neighboring countries.

“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything." Exodus 21:2

"Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession." Exodus 21:16

[Oh stop]

The Magical Yuri Toaster

The evidence is pretty overwhelming. Christians tend to just ignore stuff like that though. I mean...my whole view is if you do believe there is a God that is fine but how can you really believe the Bible is some moral book sent to guide us from that God with passages like the ones posted in it?
I would never ask anyone to give up a deeply cherished belief but my hope with these kinds of discussions is always just to get people to question the things they are taught in life. I think it is a healthy exercise of the mind that not enough people participate in.

I agree to a point, it is healthy to rationalize about ones beliefs and to ask questions about them.
Not everything is supposed to be handed to you and the Bible is certainly not without it's confusing moments, but I guess that's why Christians believe in faith.
But, it isn't right to drag down someone's belief in the Bible over some "evidence" that may be unsettling and to slight it's morality based on a few verses.
Yes, there are some pretty unbelievable and shocking things in the Bible that make you wonder why people even trust in a God like that. But obviously, the Bible isn't just filled with those things.

[Arcoon Effox]

Sir Kyle of Elsewhere

Arcoon Effox

Sir Kyle of Elsewhere

Arcoon Effox

IronySandwich

...a bunch of quibbling about how that was just "part of the times"

Isn't it funny how Christians try to explain away horrible verses by "putting them in historical context", then talk about their God's absolute, objective morality... all while criticizing the idea of moral relativism?

~~~

Lady Kariel

It’s important to remember that the type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was different from the harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected.

...(God) certainly wanted (the Israelites) to remember the horrible years of suffering that they endured

Um, yeah, so that "harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected" never actually happened... along with most of the rest of the Exodus narrative.

(I figured that somebody who copy-pasted their defense of Biblical slavery from Answers in Genesis is probably unaware of this, so I thought I should tell you.)

Exodus isn't the only book that talks about it. So that's kind of an invalid point.

PLZ elaborate on what you mean by this.

I'm just stating that Exodus isn't the only book of the bible that has examples of God endorsing slavery.

...you know I wasn't trying to justify or make excuses for Biblical slavery, right? I was just letting Kariel know that all the Biblical prattle she copy-pasted from AiG quoted about the Israelites remembering how they were slaves in Egypt is nonsense, because they never were slaves in Egypt.

I'm well aware that there's slavery in numerous other books, but my point wasn't addressing that. What I was saying was that the Bible's justification for its Relative Privation fallacy about slavery is bullshit.

As such, my point is plenty "valid".

[ratgirl34]

Oh stop

Sir Kyle of Elsewhere

Lady Kariel

These verses do not encourage or support slavery as we often perceive it. It’s important to remember that the type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was different from the harsh slavery to which the Israelites were subjected. It was also different from the harsh slavery endured by African Americans in the United States and United Kingdom. The type of slavery mentioned in Leviticus was typically a way for people to pay off their debts. If they were deep in debt, they could sell themselves for a period of time in order to become free of debt.

There were times, however, when a debt could never be paid off, such as when one nation conquered another and made slaves of the captives (1 Sam 17:8–9). Even under those circumstances, Israelites were not allowed to impose harsh slavery upon their captives. In verse 38, God reminded the Israelites that He delivered them from harsh bondage under the Egyptions. He certainly wanted them to remember the horrible years of suffering that they endured, and to treat their servants/slaves in a way that is kind.

Typically, things that are considered good do not need rules or limitations. For instance, there is no limit on how kind you can be to others. There is no limit on how much fruit of the Spirit you can cultivate. God places limitations, or laws, on things that can be harmful to ourselves and others (see Galatians 5:19–25). The Bible is full of limitations placed on harsh slavery. In Exodus 21:16, God condemns kidnapping and forced slavery. In this verse He says, “He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.”

Verse 44 discusses slaves that they may already have from nations around them. They can be bought and sold. It doesn’t say to seek them out or have forced slavery. Hence it is not giving an endorsement of seeking new slaves or encouraging the slave trade. At this point, the Israelites had just come out of slavery and were about to enter the Holy Land. They shouldn’t have had many servants. Also, this doesn’t restrict other people in cultures around them from selling themselves as bondservants. But as discussed already there are passages for the proper and godly treatment of servants/slaves.

For a New Testament example of slavery, let’s look at the story of Paul and Onesimus. Onesimus, a slave, had escaped from Philemon, his owner. Paul shared the gospel with Onesimus, who became a Christian! Over the course of time, Onesimus returned to Philemon with a letter from Paul. In the letter, Paul pleads with Philemon to receive Onesimus back as if he were Paul himself, not as a slave but as a brother. Paul also takes the responsibility for any debt that Onesimus might owe upon himself personally.

Those verses aren't talking about indentured servitude. The bible even mentions that it's okay to kidnap your "slaves" from neighboring countries.

“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything." Exodus 21:2

"Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession." Exodus 21:16

I can't remember which passage implies it, but I recall somewhere that it is implied that citizens of other countries, or followers of other religions, aren't really people. Which is a pretty d**k thing for anyone to say or believe, much less use to defend the fact that outsiders were forced into slavery.

[IronySandwich]

Arcoon Effox

Isn't it funny how Christians try to explain away horrible verses by "putting them in historical context", then talk about their God's absolute, objective morality... all while criticizing the idea of moral relativism?

Yeah, I should be used to it by now, but it still amazes me how certain Christians will attack moral relativism for its potential to excuse slavery and genocide while excusing slavery and genocide in the very same breath.

P.S. I found where that person I was talking to got their argument from (they are pretty much NEVER original)

Here's a video everyone should watch.


There you have it. Using Christianity as a "moral compass" he concludes that the slaughter of innocent children is not only acceptable but good. And this is not some random madman but a very well respected speaker in the fundamentalist community.