Welcome to Gaia! ::

Hello!

As you likely saw from the title, this thread is a place where you can open discussions on Christianity and religion. I want this thread to be a safe place for everyone who is curious, confused, or lost, whether they may be Christian or not, and whether they may believe things most Christians dislike or not.

ALL backgrounds are welcome regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity, race, religion, or belief system—I don’t care if you’re a motherflubbing fairy that rides unicorns and poops butterflies with sparkly kawaii desu nii magical powers, you are more than welcome to start a debate here or participate in the current ones. biggrin

I also have a Q&A thread if you'd like to check that out.

RULES:

o1. Be nice to all the kiddies! Please respect all people on this thread regardless of sexual orientation, religion, belief system, gender identity, personal choice, and race. Prosecution for any of that stuff ain’t gonna fly here, either.

o2. Don’t shove your beliefs in their face! Please refrain from using your belief system as a weapon, a means of conversion, or as a means to discredit the opinions and beliefs of others.

o3. No one is going to agree 100%! It’s fine if you don’t like what someone says or if you’re dissatisfied with it. We all have different beliefs for many different, very valid reasons. If you can't come to a conclusion or agreement in your debate, there's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.

o4. Don't feed the trolls! Any attempt at or effort to encourage trolling will result in an immediate report.

o5. Listen to our great Internet Mother Gaia! Failure to follow the ToS will result in an immediate report.

Please follow the above rules anytime you’re in this thread. Failure to do so will result in an Ignore and the inability to be seen or heard on this thread. I hate Ignoring people and I’d rather not have to do it.


________________________________________________________


FAQ:


What if I don’t like someone's belief system or what they have to say?

Well, hun. That’s your problem, not mine or the other party's.

If you were running a thread like this one, would you like it if I came on and I was like YOU’RE WRONG!!!11 and started giving you a hard time because of what you believe? I’m sure you wouldn’t like it very much. I ask that you extend the same courtesy to everyone within this thread, and allow me to run it as I see fit.

If you don’t like it, you can start your own thread! No one’s stopping you.

So if you don’t agree with everything the Catholic Church says, why’d you stick with it? Why don’t you just leave?

Because I believe I saw something wrong with my religion, and I feel that God asked me to fix it. If I abandoned Catholicism, I don’t think I would be a very good Catholic anymore.

I have been tempted by the idea of becoming Episcopalian, but something stops me every time. :’)

I don't get your beliefs . . . how'd you come up with them? How do they make sense with what the Catholic Church says?

I'm working on my own article for that, but in the meantime these should help:

Moral Conscience - From the Catechism, an often overlooked piece.

The Great Debate: Justin's View - A really long but awesome article examining Scripture in support of marriage equality.

Believe Out Loud - This wonderful website has all sorts of different articles and resources to look at.

So if you support gay people . . . are you gay too?

Nope! I like men. biggrin Though if people think I’m a lesbian for whatever reason I don’t bother correcting them. XD

I could technically be included in the group of not-heteronormative because I’m also polyamorous, though my current relationship is closed and I’ve never been in a poly relationship before.

Basically it means I prefer or sometimes need to have a loving, committed relationship with more than one person at once to which all parties consent. Polyamoury exists on a spectrum much like gayness and gender identity—some people are on either end of the extreme, and some people are somewhere in the middle.

So I can really start ANY discussion I want? You won’t judge me?

Yes, you can start ANY discussion you want. It’s not my place to judge you or prosecute you—that’s God’s job, not mine, and chances are you’re probably okay anyway.

Others aren't allowed to prosecute you in here either, in accordance with the rules.

So who are you, anyway?

You can read more about that at my Q&A thread, or you can always look at my profile!

________________________________________________________


DISCUSSION TOPICS:


Here's some questions and ideas to get us started:

Who or what is God? What does God want?

How do atheists/non-Christians factor into everything?

Why do you think Christians are against X? Is that right? Is it wrong?

What are some of your favorite things about Christianity? Why don't you like Christianity?
Ask Jappleack's avatar

Greedy Consumer

I am 'atheist' because, well, how I try to prove god isnt real is by.
1, showing that gods were invented from the human mind as a concept
2, point out logical fallacies

And those can be divided to further points.

1a, one way of showing how gods were invented is researching cultures before and after they acquired the beliefs in dieties to determine a motivation for creating a god.
1b, use psychology to explain things like wishful thinking or think why would I invent the idea of a god, and what would psychologists think of my creating a god persona or whatnot, to therefore demonstrate why gods are not real.

2a, bible is not evidence anymore than shakespeare's plays are evidence of romeo or juliet having existed, is an example.

2b, the bible is contradictory within itself

2c, the bible is contradictory with science and history and other things beyond itself, making it look like fiction.



Something along those lines is how I think I can disbelieve in a god(s).
I was raised in a partially christian household, I was a naive person. I judged, like 'holier than thou' and had high standards of belief. I looked down on people who werent as serious religion wise. Then I got educated and realized how bad the church/vatican was. And that caused great conflict within my mind. Eventually I am as I am. I think atheism is a word to explain the abnormal disbelief in god, that gets abused to judge those who dont believe, and if a god(s) suddenly show themself, of course, who wouldnt convert if god actually spoke to us? But the news exagerates, people exagerate, stories are inaccurate, and somehow the bible is right? I dont see how thats possible. Other religions are less hypocritical and match up with my morals more, none are perfect, and because I veiw religion as a social construct I still think religion has its uses for society, but I also think a direct approach would be better, such as education.
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What are some of your favorite things about Christianity? Why don't you like Christianity?

Some of my favorite things about my heretical take on Christianity is that it makes sense to me and helps me find inner peace. I love attending mass in the Episcopal Church and I also love leading my Gnostic services. It helps give me tools into developing into a more decent person and keeps me aware that I'm not big dog that I sometimes like to believe that I am at times.

What I don't like about Christianity... It's all the baggage that believers and nonbelievers want to tack on to it. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean that I'm a Seven Day Creationist, nor does it mean I'm opposed to gay marriage or women rights. It doesn't mean that I believe in Biblical literalism. I hate it how everyone makes assumptions that I must be associated with all these things because I say that I'm Christian. Granted there's more baggage with being a Gnostic too, but most people don't even know what Gnosticism is so it's not a big issue.
We Are Organisms
I am 'atheist' because, well, how I try to prove god isnt real is by.
1, showing that gods were invented from the human mind as a concept
2, point out logical fallacies

And those can be divided to further points.

1a, one way of showing how gods were invented is researching cultures before and after they acquired the beliefs in dieties to determine a motivation for creating a god.
1b, use psychology to explain things like wishful thinking or think why would I invent the idea of a god, and what would psychologists think of my creating a god persona or whatnot, to therefore demonstrate why gods are not real.

2a, bible is not evidence anymore than shakespeare's plays are evidence of romeo or juliet having existed, is an example.

2b, the bible is contradictory within itself

2c, the bible is contradictory with science and history and other things beyond itself, making it look like fiction.



Something along those lines is how I think I can disbelieve in a god(s).
I was raised in a partially christian household, I was a naive person. I judged, like 'holier than thou' and had high standards of belief. I looked down on people who werent as serious religion wise. Then I got educated and realized how bad the church/vatican was. And that caused great conflict within my mind. Eventually I am as I am. I think atheism is a word to explain the abnormal disbelief in god, that gets abused to judge those who dont believe, and if a god(s) suddenly show themself, of course, who wouldnt convert if god actually spoke to us? But the news exagerates, people exagerate, stories are inaccurate, and somehow the bible is right? I dont see how thats possible. Other religions are less hypocritical and match up with my morals more, none are perfect, and because I veiw religion as a social construct I still think religion has its uses for society, but I also think a direct approach would be better, such as education.


To be honest I personally think the whole 'atheist vs. Christian' argument is kind of pointless, because honestly there's REALLY no way to prove 100% beyond a doubt that God does or does not exist. If we could, it would sort of defeat the purpose of religion and belief systems, I think, and we would all believe the same thing and it would be boring and we would have nothing about the meaning in our lives to figure out as human beings.

And then I would be out of a job as an author because the original purpose of stories was to figure out who God is and how God made it work. XD

BUT ANYWAY. Whether or not God exists, I think religion is an effort to understand what God is and what God wants, as well as our place as human beings and our purpose for existing here. Because we're human, we make mistakes as human beings in our belief systems, and this sadly has terrible and lasting repercussions when we allow those belief systems to have a hold over us beyond common sense and basic human decency.

My problem with a lot of Christians is that they get all ~high and mighty~ in their beliefs and then proceed to prosecute people like you, even though they can't prove 100% that their beliefs are right and yours are wrong, or vice versa. They forget that we as human beings lead shaky, fragile existences and many of the things we believe COULD be human constructs we invented. c:

Thus why I think the Christians vs. Atheists argument is pointless. LIKE WHO CARES we both want to be at peace as human beings, and we both strive to be the best we can be, whether or not we think we need God. I think it's more important to focus on that rather than arguing about who's right and who's not.
Ask Jappleack's avatar

Greedy Consumer

Kashii_Ai
We Are Organisms
I am 'atheist' because, well, how I try to prove god isnt real is by.
1, showing that gods were invented from the human mind as a concept
2, point out logical fallacies

And those can be divided to further points.

1a, one way of showing how gods were invented is researching cultures before and after they acquired the beliefs in dieties to determine a motivation for creating a god.
1b, use psychology to explain things like wishful thinking or think why would I invent the idea of a god, and what would psychologists think of my creating a god persona or whatnot, to therefore demonstrate why gods are not real.

2a, bible is not evidence anymore than shakespeare's plays are evidence of romeo or juliet having existed, is an example.

2b, the bible is contradictory within itself

2c, the bible is contradictory with science and history and other things beyond itself, making it look like fiction.



Something along those lines is how I think I can disbelieve in a god(s).
I was raised in a partially christian household, I was a naive person. I judged, like 'holier than thou' and had high standards of belief. I looked down on people who werent as serious religion wise. Then I got educated and realized how bad the church/vatican was. And that caused great conflict within my mind. Eventually I am as I am. I think atheism is a word to explain the abnormal disbelief in god, that gets abused to judge those who dont believe, and if a god(s) suddenly show themself, of course, who wouldnt convert if god actually spoke to us? But the news exagerates, people exagerate, stories are inaccurate, and somehow the bible is right? I dont see how thats possible. Other religions are less hypocritical and match up with my morals more, none are perfect, and because I veiw religion as a social construct I still think religion has its uses for society, but I also think a direct approach would be better, such as education.


To be honest I personally think the whole 'atheist vs. Christian' argument is kind of pointless, because honestly there's REALLY no way to prove 100% beyond a doubt that God does or does not exist. If we could, it would sort of defeat the purpose of religion and belief systems, I think, and we would all believe the same thing and it would be boring and we would have nothing about the meaning in our lives to figure out as human beings.

And then I would be out of a job as an author because the original purpose of stories was to figure out who God is and how God made it work. XD

BUT ANYWAY. Whether or not God exists, I think religion is an effort to understand what God is and what God wants, as well as our place as human beings and our purpose for existing here. Because we're human, we make mistakes as human beings in our belief systems, and this sadly has terrible and lasting repercussions when we allow those belief systems to have a hold over us beyond common sense and basic human decency.

My problem with a lot of Christians is that they get all ~high and mighty~ in their beliefs and then proceed to prosecute people like you, even though they can't prove 100% that their beliefs are right and yours are wrong, or vice versa. They forget that we as human beings lead shaky, fragile existences and many of the things we believe COULD be human constructs we invented. c:

Thus why I think the Christians vs. Atheists argument is pointless. LIKE WHO CARES we both want to be at peace as human beings, and we both strive to be the best we can be, whether or not we think we need God. I think it's more important to focus on that rather than arguing about who's right and who's not.
exactly, we need peace, not christians cutting off foreskins of babies', hating on gays, etc. I know its more of the parenting/education issue than christianity but dont say I cant disprove god beyond a doubt, I can disprove gods through disproving religion through, science, history, rational thought, etc. Just not peoples' individual ideas of god(s), but even that is shaky because theres a billion ideas of god not with religion, its futile to assume anything of god, its a huge distraction and waste of time. Yeah let the vatican prevent people giving condoms to african americans, so they can still spread aids and babies born with aids, babies who are probably going to starve to death anyways. Yeah believe in your fictional ******** egotistical god and lets have a rational conversation about peace, well you need to drop god before you can be rational. But yeah, you obviously cant prove I cant disprove god either, which should sit well with your logic, so ok lets not argue about this.

And about meaning in lives, religion is an awefullly convenient way to give people purpose and answers, maybe thats why it was made. :O And then god conveniently disapears, by magical coincidence.

But yeah, what should we be talking about in this discussion anyways?
Ask Jappleack's avatar

Greedy Consumer

Right the discussion is on christianity. I say its fake, proveably so, in fact I think their wishful thinking prevents them from seeing things in a rational manner. They think god hates them if an accident happens then blame god on their lives but still beleive in him, isnt that a wee bit retarded?
Ask Jappleack's avatar

Greedy Consumer

Besides if atheists depend on proof then 'common sense' should say theres no proof for the Abrahamic god. Everyone quotes the bible as evidence. Yeah, and I can quote the onion as proof for the onion's stories being correct, it means it must be correct, because strangers thousands of years ago wrote it down. Well strangers thousands of years ago also wrote down other religions, and Im sure its easy to type a lie.

I am Obama.

Yup easy enough. Nobody smited me.
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Kashii_Ai
We Are Organisms
I am 'atheist' because, well, how I try to prove god isnt real is by.
1, showing that gods were invented from the human mind as a concept
2, point out logical fallacies

And those can be divided to further points.

1a, one way of showing how gods were invented is researching cultures before and after they acquired the beliefs in dieties to determine a motivation for creating a god.
1b, use psychology to explain things like wishful thinking or think why would I invent the idea of a god, and what would psychologists think of my creating a god persona or whatnot, to therefore demonstrate why gods are not real.

2a, bible is not evidence anymore than shakespeare's plays are evidence of romeo or juliet having existed, is an example.

2b, the bible is contradictory within itself

2c, the bible is contradictory with science and history and other things beyond itself, making it look like fiction.



Something along those lines is how I think I can disbelieve in a god(s).
I was raised in a partially christian household, I was a naive person. I judged, like 'holier than thou' and had high standards of belief. I looked down on people who werent as serious religion wise. Then I got educated and realized how bad the church/vatican was. And that caused great conflict within my mind. Eventually I am as I am. I think atheism is a word to explain the abnormal disbelief in god, that gets abused to judge those who dont believe, and if a god(s) suddenly show themself, of course, who wouldnt convert if god actually spoke to us? But the news exagerates, people exagerate, stories are inaccurate, and somehow the bible is right? I dont see how thats possible. Other religions are less hypocritical and match up with my morals more, none are perfect, and because I veiw religion as a social construct I still think religion has its uses for society, but I also think a direct approach would be better, such as education.


To be honest I personally think the whole 'atheist vs. Christian' argument is kind of pointless, because honestly there's REALLY no way to prove 100% beyond a doubt that God does or does not exist. If we could, it would sort of defeat the purpose of religion and belief systems, I think, and we would all believe the same thing and it would be boring and we would have nothing about the meaning in our lives to figure out as human beings.

And then I would be out of a job as an author because the original purpose of stories was to figure out who God is and how God made it work. XD

BUT ANYWAY. Whether or not God exists, I think religion is an effort to understand what God is and what God wants, as well as our place as human beings and our purpose for existing here. Because we're human, we make mistakes as human beings in our belief systems, and this sadly has terrible and lasting repercussions when we allow those belief systems to have a hold over us beyond common sense and basic human decency.

My problem with a lot of Christians is that they get all ~high and mighty~ in their beliefs and then proceed to prosecute people like you, even though they can't prove 100% that their beliefs are right and yours are wrong, or vice versa. They forget that we as human beings lead shaky, fragile existences and many of the things we believe COULD be human constructs we invented. c:

Thus why I think the Christians vs. Atheists argument is pointless. LIKE WHO CARES we both want to be at peace as human beings, and we both strive to be the best we can be, whether or not we think we need God. I think it's more important to focus on that rather than arguing about who's right and who's not.


"To be honest I personally think the whole 'atheist vs. Christian' argument is kind of pointless, because honestly there's REALLY no way to prove 100% beyond a doubt that God does or does not exist."

There is also no way to prove that Unicon's don't exist 100% beyond a reasonable doubt yet if someone were to attempt to enact legislation around the idea of what their mystical unicorn told them, then they would be met with heavy resistance. And you are right, we both want what we believe is best. It's deciding what is best that is the issue and when it comes down to "because my God said so", then the so called "Atheist vs. christian" debate comes into play. The whole reason that Christians begin to persecute others is because they sincerely believe that they are correct in their actions. They do not do it out of hate, they do it out of an assumed divine love which drives them to combat anything which comes counter to their religion.
We Are Organisms
Kashii_Ai
We Are Organisms
I am 'atheist' because, well, how I try to prove god isnt real is by.
1, showing that gods were invented from the human mind as a concept
2, point out logical fallacies

And those can be divided to further points.

1a, one way of showing how gods were invented is researching cultures before and after they acquired the beliefs in dieties to determine a motivation for creating a god.
1b, use psychology to explain things like wishful thinking or think why would I invent the idea of a god, and what would psychologists think of my creating a god persona or whatnot, to therefore demonstrate why gods are not real.

2a, bible is not evidence anymore than shakespeare's plays are evidence of romeo or juliet having existed, is an example.

2b, the bible is contradictory within itself

2c, the bible is contradictory with science and history and other things beyond itself, making it look like fiction.



Something along those lines is how I think I can disbelieve in a god(s).
I was raised in a partially christian household, I was a naive person. I judged, like 'holier than thou' and had high standards of belief. I looked down on people who werent as serious religion wise. Then I got educated and realized how bad the church/vatican was. And that caused great conflict within my mind. Eventually I am as I am. I think atheism is a word to explain the abnormal disbelief in god, that gets abused to judge those who dont believe, and if a god(s) suddenly show themself, of course, who wouldnt convert if god actually spoke to us? But the news exagerates, people exagerate, stories are inaccurate, and somehow the bible is right? I dont see how thats possible. Other religions are less hypocritical and match up with my morals more, none are perfect, and because I veiw religion as a social construct I still think religion has its uses for society, but I also think a direct approach would be better, such as education.


To be honest I personally think the whole 'atheist vs. Christian' argument is kind of pointless, because honestly there's REALLY no way to prove 100% beyond a doubt that God does or does not exist. If we could, it would sort of defeat the purpose of religion and belief systems, I think, and we would all believe the same thing and it would be boring and we would have nothing about the meaning in our lives to figure out as human beings.

And then I would be out of a job as an author because the original purpose of stories was to figure out who God is and how God made it work. XD

BUT ANYWAY. Whether or not God exists, I think religion is an effort to understand what God is and what God wants, as well as our place as human beings and our purpose for existing here. Because we're human, we make mistakes as human beings in our belief systems, and this sadly has terrible and lasting repercussions when we allow those belief systems to have a hold over us beyond common sense and basic human decency.

My problem with a lot of Christians is that they get all ~high and mighty~ in their beliefs and then proceed to prosecute people like you, even though they can't prove 100% that their beliefs are right and yours are wrong, or vice versa. They forget that we as human beings lead shaky, fragile existences and many of the things we believe COULD be human constructs we invented. c:

Thus why I think the Christians vs. Atheists argument is pointless. LIKE WHO CARES we both want to be at peace as human beings, and we both strive to be the best we can be, whether or not we think we need God. I think it's more important to focus on that rather than arguing about who's right and who's not.
exactly, we need peace, not christians cutting off foreskins of babies', hating on gays, etc. I know its more of the parenting/education issue than christianity but dont say I cant disprove god beyond a doubt, I can disprove gods through disproving religion through, science, history, rational thought, etc. Just not peoples' individual ideas of god(s), but even that is shaky because theres a billion ideas of god not with religion, its futile to assume anything of god, its a huge distraction and waste of time. Yeah let the vatican prevent people giving condoms to african americans, so they can still spread aids and babies born with aids, babies who are probably going to starve to death anyways. Yeah believe in your fictional ******** egotistical god and lets have a rational conversation about peace, well you need to drop god before you can be rational. But yeah, you obviously cant prove I cant disprove god either, which should sit well with your logic, so ok lets not argue about this.

And about meaning in lives, religion is an awefullly convenient way to give people purpose and answers, maybe thats why it was made. :O And then god conveniently disapears, by magical coincidence.

But yeah, what should we be talking about in this discussion anyways?


Religion doesn't always = lack of rationality. I'm pretty religious--I attend Mass every week, I pray regularly, I'm part of a faith sharing group, but as you've probably noticed, I don't condone prosecuting people because of their sexuality, belief system, choices, etc etc or preventing an entire people from contraceptives or proper sex education. It's why so many other Catholics have a problem with me. XD

I can also tell you that even with religion, I don't 100% know everything about the meaning of life. I'm constantly facing that dilemma because I'm a storyteller--my entire JOB is figuring out what the meaning of life is, and then telling others what it is through artistic expression, and even then people are gonna take my interpretation and criticize it and either approve or disapprove it.

No storyteller starts out knowing what they're gonna say. I had like three or four drafts for the plot of Mirror of Illusion before I was pleased with it, and even now with half the novel written, I'm cutting out like 60% of it and writing in new scenes or leaving the chapter shorter. I'm sure I'll have to do as much with the second half. And even with all this editing and nitpicking, I'm STILL not 100% sure what I want my ultimate message of the novel to be. I'll probably find out when I get to that crucial point.

I think the biggest issue isn't religion, I think it's that people misuse it to be a weapon, when that's not its purpose. Religion is supposed to be a moral compass and a general place for people to start so they can find the meaning in their lives. It's not an excuse to police or judge people for the way they were born or for the choices they make.

The ultimate goal of Christianity is to love and serve others and make you the BEST VERSION YOU CAN BE, not to prosecute others. That's a lot more compelling and interesting to me than petty notions of who sleeps with who or what someone believes.
Ask Jappleack's avatar

Greedy Consumer

Kashii_Ai
We Are Organisms
Kashii_Ai
We Are Organisms
I am 'atheist' because, well, how I try to prove god isnt real is by.
1, showing that gods were invented from the human mind as a concept
2, point out logical fallacies

And those can be divided to further points.

1a, one way of showing how gods were invented is researching cultures before and after they acquired the beliefs in dieties to determine a motivation for creating a god.
1b, use psychology to explain things like wishful thinking or think why would I invent the idea of a god, and what would psychologists think of my creating a god persona or whatnot, to therefore demonstrate why gods are not real.

2a, bible is not evidence anymore than shakespeare's plays are evidence of romeo or juliet having existed, is an example.

2b, the bible is contradictory within itself

2c, the bible is contradictory with science and history and other things beyond itself, making it look like fiction.



Something along those lines is how I think I can disbelieve in a god(s).
I was raised in a partially christian household, I was a naive person. I judged, like 'holier than thou' and had high standards of belief. I looked down on people who werent as serious religion wise. Then I got educated and realized how bad the church/vatican was. And that caused great conflict within my mind. Eventually I am as I am. I think atheism is a word to explain the abnormal disbelief in god, that gets abused to judge those who dont believe, and if a god(s) suddenly show themself, of course, who wouldnt convert if god actually spoke to us? But the news exagerates, people exagerate, stories are inaccurate, and somehow the bible is right? I dont see how thats possible. Other religions are less hypocritical and match up with my morals more, none are perfect, and because I veiw religion as a social construct I still think religion has its uses for society, but I also think a direct approach would be better, such as education.


To be honest I personally think the whole 'atheist vs. Christian' argument is kind of pointless, because honestly there's REALLY no way to prove 100% beyond a doubt that God does or does not exist. If we could, it would sort of defeat the purpose of religion and belief systems, I think, and we would all believe the same thing and it would be boring and we would have nothing about the meaning in our lives to figure out as human beings.

And then I would be out of a job as an author because the original purpose of stories was to figure out who God is and how God made it work. XD

BUT ANYWAY. Whether or not God exists, I think religion is an effort to understand what God is and what God wants, as well as our place as human beings and our purpose for existing here. Because we're human, we make mistakes as human beings in our belief systems, and this sadly has terrible and lasting repercussions when we allow those belief systems to have a hold over us beyond common sense and basic human decency.

My problem with a lot of Christians is that they get all ~high and mighty~ in their beliefs and then proceed to prosecute people like you, even though they can't prove 100% that their beliefs are right and yours are wrong, or vice versa. They forget that we as human beings lead shaky, fragile existences and many of the things we believe COULD be human constructs we invented. c:

Thus why I think the Christians vs. Atheists argument is pointless. LIKE WHO CARES we both want to be at peace as human beings, and we both strive to be the best we can be, whether or not we think we need God. I think it's more important to focus on that rather than arguing about who's right and who's not.
exactly, we need peace, not christians cutting off foreskins of babies', hating on gays, etc. I know its more of the parenting/education issue than christianity but dont say I cant disprove god beyond a doubt, I can disprove gods through disproving religion through, science, history, rational thought, etc. Just not peoples' individual ideas of god(s), but even that is shaky because theres a billion ideas of god not with religion, its futile to assume anything of god, its a huge distraction and waste of time. Yeah let the vatican prevent people giving condoms to african americans, so they can still spread aids and babies born with aids, babies who are probably going to starve to death anyways. Yeah believe in your fictional ******** egotistical god and lets have a rational conversation about peace, well you need to drop god before you can be rational. But yeah, you obviously cant prove I cant disprove god either, which should sit well with your logic, so ok lets not argue about this.

And about meaning in lives, religion is an awefullly convenient way to give people purpose and answers, maybe thats why it was made. :O And then god conveniently disapears, by magical coincidence.

But yeah, what should we be talking about in this discussion anyways?


Religion doesn't always = lack of rationality. I'm pretty religious--I attend Mass every week, I pray regularly, I'm part of a faith sharing group, but as you've probably noticed, I don't condone prosecuting people because of their sexuality, belief system, choices, etc etc or preventing an entire people from contraceptives or proper sex education. It's why so many other Catholics have a problem with me. XD

I can also tell you that even with religion, I don't 100% know everything about the meaning of life. I'm constantly facing that dilemma because I'm a storyteller--my entire JOB is figuring out what the meaning of life is, and then telling others what it is through artistic expression, and even then people are gonna take my interpretation and criticize it and either approve or disapprove it.

No storyteller starts out knowing what they're gonna say. I had like three or four drafts for the plot of Mirror of Illusion before I was pleased with it, and even now with half the novel written, I'm cutting out like 60% of it and writing in new scenes or leaving the chapter shorter. I'm sure I'll have to do as much with the second half. And even with all this editing and nitpicking, I'm STILL not 100% sure what I want my ultimate message of the novel to be. I'll probably find out when I get to that crucial point.

I think the biggest issue isn't religion, I think it's that people misuse it to be a weapon, when that's not its purpose. Religion is supposed to be a moral compass and a general place for people to start so they can find the meaning in their lives. It's not an excuse to police or judge people for the way they were born or for the choices they make.

The ultimate goal of Christianity is to love and serve others and make you the BEST VERSION YOU CAN BE, not to prosecute others. That's a lot more compelling and interesting to me than petty notions of who sleeps with who or what someone believes.
But christianity isnt th eonly method, and not the most reliable method, to get everyone to love each other.
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Kashii_Ai
We Are Organisms
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I am 'atheist' because, well, how I try to prove god isnt real is by.
1, showing that gods were invented from the human mind as a concept
2, point out logical fallacies

And those can be divided to further points.

1a, one way of showing how gods were invented is researching cultures before and after they acquired the beliefs in dieties to determine a motivation for creating a god.
1b, use psychology to explain things like wishful thinking or think why would I invent the idea of a god, and what would psychologists think of my creating a god persona or whatnot, to therefore demonstrate why gods are not real.

2a, bible is not evidence anymore than shakespeare's plays are evidence of romeo or juliet having existed, is an example.

2b, the bible is contradictory within itself

2c, the bible is contradictory with science and history and other things beyond itself, making it look like fiction.



Something along those lines is how I think I can disbelieve in a god(s).
I was raised in a partially christian household, I was a naive person. I judged, like 'holier than thou' and had high standards of belief. I looked down on people who werent as serious religion wise. Then I got educated and realized how bad the church/vatican was. And that caused great conflict within my mind. Eventually I am as I am. I think atheism is a word to explain the abnormal disbelief in god, that gets abused to judge those who dont believe, and if a god(s) suddenly show themself, of course, who wouldnt convert if god actually spoke to us? But the news exagerates, people exagerate, stories are inaccurate, and somehow the bible is right? I dont see how thats possible. Other religions are less hypocritical and match up with my morals more, none are perfect, and because I veiw religion as a social construct I still think religion has its uses for society, but I also think a direct approach would be better, such as education.


To be honest I personally think the whole 'atheist vs. Christian' argument is kind of pointless, because honestly there's REALLY no way to prove 100% beyond a doubt that God does or does not exist. If we could, it would sort of defeat the purpose of religion and belief systems, I think, and we would all believe the same thing and it would be boring and we would have nothing about the meaning in our lives to figure out as human beings.

And then I would be out of a job as an author because the original purpose of stories was to figure out who God is and how God made it work. XD

BUT ANYWAY. Whether or not God exists, I think religion is an effort to understand what God is and what God wants, as well as our place as human beings and our purpose for existing here. Because we're human, we make mistakes as human beings in our belief systems, and this sadly has terrible and lasting repercussions when we allow those belief systems to have a hold over us beyond common sense and basic human decency.

My problem with a lot of Christians is that they get all ~high and mighty~ in their beliefs and then proceed to prosecute people like you, even though they can't prove 100% that their beliefs are right and yours are wrong, or vice versa. They forget that we as human beings lead shaky, fragile existences and many of the things we believe COULD be human constructs we invented. c:

Thus why I think the Christians vs. Atheists argument is pointless. LIKE WHO CARES we both want to be at peace as human beings, and we both strive to be the best we can be, whether or not we think we need God. I think it's more important to focus on that rather than arguing about who's right and who's not.
exactly, we need peace, not christians cutting off foreskins of babies', hating on gays, etc. I know its more of the parenting/education issue than christianity but dont say I cant disprove god beyond a doubt, I can disprove gods through disproving religion through, science, history, rational thought, etc. Just not peoples' individual ideas of god(s), but even that is shaky because theres a billion ideas of god not with religion, its futile to assume anything of god, its a huge distraction and waste of time. Yeah let the vatican prevent people giving condoms to african americans, so they can still spread aids and babies born with aids, babies who are probably going to starve to death anyways. Yeah believe in your fictional ******** egotistical god and lets have a rational conversation about peace, well you need to drop god before you can be rational. But yeah, you obviously cant prove I cant disprove god either, which should sit well with your logic, so ok lets not argue about this.

And about meaning in lives, religion is an awefullly convenient way to give people purpose and answers, maybe thats why it was made. :O And then god conveniently disapears, by magical coincidence.

But yeah, what should we be talking about in this discussion anyways?


Religion doesn't always = lack of rationality. I'm pretty religious--I attend Mass every week, I pray regularly, I'm part of a faith sharing group, but as you've probably noticed, I don't condone prosecuting people because of their sexuality, belief system, choices, etc etc or preventing an entire people from contraceptives or proper sex education. It's why so many other Catholics have a problem with me. XD

I can also tell you that even with religion, I don't 100% know everything about the meaning of life. I'm constantly facing that dilemma because I'm a storyteller--my entire JOB is figuring out what the meaning of life is, and then telling others what it is through artistic expression, and even then people are gonna take my interpretation and criticize it and either approve or disapprove it.

No storyteller starts out knowing what they're gonna say. I had like three or four drafts for the plot of Mirror of Illusion before I was pleased with it, and even now with half the novel written, I'm cutting out like 60% of it and writing in new scenes or leaving the chapter shorter. I'm sure I'll have to do as much with the second half. And even with all this editing and nitpicking, I'm STILL not 100% sure what I want my ultimate message of the novel to be. I'll probably find out when I get to that crucial point.

I think the biggest issue isn't religion, I think it's that people misuse it to be a weapon, when that's not its purpose. Religion is supposed to be a moral compass and a general place for people to start so they can find the meaning in their lives. It's not an excuse to police or judge people for the way they were born or for the choices they make.

The ultimate goal of Christianity is to love and serve others and make you the BEST VERSION YOU CAN BE, not to prosecute others. That's a lot more compelling and interesting to me than petty notions of who sleeps with who or what someone believes.
But christianity isnt th eonly method, and not the most reliable method, to get everyone to love each other.


Did you ever hear me say it was? You just assumed by default that's what I think. c:
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Kashii_Ai
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Kashii_Ai
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I am 'atheist' because, well, how I try to prove god isnt real is by.
1, showing that gods were invented from the human mind as a concept
2, point out logical fallacies

And those can be divided to further points.

1a, one way of showing how gods were invented is researching cultures before and after they acquired the beliefs in dieties to determine a motivation for creating a god.
1b, use psychology to explain things like wishful thinking or think why would I invent the idea of a god, and what would psychologists think of my creating a god persona or whatnot, to therefore demonstrate why gods are not real.

2a, bible is not evidence anymore than shakespeare's plays are evidence of romeo or juliet having existed, is an example.

2b, the bible is contradictory within itself

2c, the bible is contradictory with science and history and other things beyond itself, making it look like fiction.



Something along those lines is how I think I can disbelieve in a god(s).
I was raised in a partially christian household, I was a naive person. I judged, like 'holier than thou' and had high standards of belief. I looked down on people who werent as serious religion wise. Then I got educated and realized how bad the church/vatican was. And that caused great conflict within my mind. Eventually I am as I am. I think atheism is a word to explain the abnormal disbelief in god, that gets abused to judge those who dont believe, and if a god(s) suddenly show themself, of course, who wouldnt convert if god actually spoke to us? But the news exagerates, people exagerate, stories are inaccurate, and somehow the bible is right? I dont see how thats possible. Other religions are less hypocritical and match up with my morals more, none are perfect, and because I veiw religion as a social construct I still think religion has its uses for society, but I also think a direct approach would be better, such as education.


To be honest I personally think the whole 'atheist vs. Christian' argument is kind of pointless, because honestly there's REALLY no way to prove 100% beyond a doubt that God does or does not exist. If we could, it would sort of defeat the purpose of religion and belief systems, I think, and we would all believe the same thing and it would be boring and we would have nothing about the meaning in our lives to figure out as human beings.

And then I would be out of a job as an author because the original purpose of stories was to figure out who God is and how God made it work. XD

BUT ANYWAY. Whether or not God exists, I think religion is an effort to understand what God is and what God wants, as well as our place as human beings and our purpose for existing here. Because we're human, we make mistakes as human beings in our belief systems, and this sadly has terrible and lasting repercussions when we allow those belief systems to have a hold over us beyond common sense and basic human decency.

My problem with a lot of Christians is that they get all ~high and mighty~ in their beliefs and then proceed to prosecute people like you, even though they can't prove 100% that their beliefs are right and yours are wrong, or vice versa. They forget that we as human beings lead shaky, fragile existences and many of the things we believe COULD be human constructs we invented. c:

Thus why I think the Christians vs. Atheists argument is pointless. LIKE WHO CARES we both want to be at peace as human beings, and we both strive to be the best we can be, whether or not we think we need God. I think it's more important to focus on that rather than arguing about who's right and who's not.
exactly, we need peace, not christians cutting off foreskins of babies', hating on gays, etc. I know its more of the parenting/education issue than christianity but dont say I cant disprove god beyond a doubt, I can disprove gods through disproving religion through, science, history, rational thought, etc. Just not peoples' individual ideas of god(s), but even that is shaky because theres a billion ideas of god not with religion, its futile to assume anything of god, its a huge distraction and waste of time. Yeah let the vatican prevent people giving condoms to african americans, so they can still spread aids and babies born with aids, babies who are probably going to starve to death anyways. Yeah believe in your fictional ******** egotistical god and lets have a rational conversation about peace, well you need to drop god before you can be rational. But yeah, you obviously cant prove I cant disprove god either, which should sit well with your logic, so ok lets not argue about this.

And about meaning in lives, religion is an awefullly convenient way to give people purpose and answers, maybe thats why it was made. :O And then god conveniently disapears, by magical coincidence.

But yeah, what should we be talking about in this discussion anyways?


Religion doesn't always = lack of rationality. I'm pretty religious--I attend Mass every week, I pray regularly, I'm part of a faith sharing group, but as you've probably noticed, I don't condone prosecuting people because of their sexuality, belief system, choices, etc etc or preventing an entire people from contraceptives or proper sex education. It's why so many other Catholics have a problem with me. XD

I can also tell you that even with religion, I don't 100% know everything about the meaning of life. I'm constantly facing that dilemma because I'm a storyteller--my entire JOB is figuring out what the meaning of life is, and then telling others what it is through artistic expression, and even then people are gonna take my interpretation and criticize it and either approve or disapprove it.

No storyteller starts out knowing what they're gonna say. I had like three or four drafts for the plot of Mirror of Illusion before I was pleased with it, and even now with half the novel written, I'm cutting out like 60% of it and writing in new scenes or leaving the chapter shorter. I'm sure I'll have to do as much with the second half. And even with all this editing and nitpicking, I'm STILL not 100% sure what I want my ultimate message of the novel to be. I'll probably find out when I get to that crucial point.

I think the biggest issue isn't religion, I think it's that people misuse it to be a weapon, when that's not its purpose. Religion is supposed to be a moral compass and a general place for people to start so they can find the meaning in their lives. It's not an excuse to police or judge people for the way they were born or for the choices they make.

The ultimate goal of Christianity is to love and serve others and make you the BEST VERSION YOU CAN BE, not to prosecute others. That's a lot more compelling and interesting to me than petty notions of who sleeps with who or what someone believes.
But christianity isnt th eonly method, and not the most reliable method, to get everyone to love each other.


Did you ever hear me say it was? You just assumed by default that's what I think. c:
It was your defense of christianity. And I obviously didnt assume it when your statement implies it. Any other stories you wanna share?
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Kashii_Ai
We Are Organisms
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We Are Organisms
I am 'atheist' because, well, how I try to prove god isnt real is by.
1, showing that gods were invented from the human mind as a concept
2, point out logical fallacies

And those can be divided to further points.

1a, one way of showing how gods were invented is researching cultures before and after they acquired the beliefs in dieties to determine a motivation for creating a god.
1b, use psychology to explain things like wishful thinking or think why would I invent the idea of a god, and what would psychologists think of my creating a god persona or whatnot, to therefore demonstrate why gods are not real.

2a, bible is not evidence anymore than shakespeare's plays are evidence of romeo or juliet having existed, is an example.

2b, the bible is contradictory within itself

2c, the bible is contradictory with science and history and other things beyond itself, making it look like fiction.



Something along those lines is how I think I can disbelieve in a god(s).
I was raised in a partially christian household, I was a naive person. I judged, like 'holier than thou' and had high standards of belief. I looked down on people who werent as serious religion wise. Then I got educated and realized how bad the church/vatican was. And that caused great conflict within my mind. Eventually I am as I am. I think atheism is a word to explain the abnormal disbelief in god, that gets abused to judge those who dont believe, and if a god(s) suddenly show themself, of course, who wouldnt convert if god actually spoke to us? But the news exagerates, people exagerate, stories are inaccurate, and somehow the bible is right? I dont see how thats possible. Other religions are less hypocritical and match up with my morals more, none are perfect, and because I veiw religion as a social construct I still think religion has its uses for society, but I also think a direct approach would be better, such as education.


To be honest I personally think the whole 'atheist vs. Christian' argument is kind of pointless, because honestly there's REALLY no way to prove 100% beyond a doubt that God does or does not exist. If we could, it would sort of defeat the purpose of religion and belief systems, I think, and we would all believe the same thing and it would be boring and we would have nothing about the meaning in our lives to figure out as human beings.

And then I would be out of a job as an author because the original purpose of stories was to figure out who God is and how God made it work. XD

BUT ANYWAY. Whether or not God exists, I think religion is an effort to understand what God is and what God wants, as well as our place as human beings and our purpose for existing here. Because we're human, we make mistakes as human beings in our belief systems, and this sadly has terrible and lasting repercussions when we allow those belief systems to have a hold over us beyond common sense and basic human decency.

My problem with a lot of Christians is that they get all ~high and mighty~ in their beliefs and then proceed to prosecute people like you, even though they can't prove 100% that their beliefs are right and yours are wrong, or vice versa. They forget that we as human beings lead shaky, fragile existences and many of the things we believe COULD be human constructs we invented. c:

Thus why I think the Christians vs. Atheists argument is pointless. LIKE WHO CARES we both want to be at peace as human beings, and we both strive to be the best we can be, whether or not we think we need God. I think it's more important to focus on that rather than arguing about who's right and who's not.
exactly, we need peace, not christians cutting off foreskins of babies', hating on gays, etc. I know its more of the parenting/education issue than christianity but dont say I cant disprove god beyond a doubt, I can disprove gods through disproving religion through, science, history, rational thought, etc. Just not peoples' individual ideas of god(s), but even that is shaky because theres a billion ideas of god not with religion, its futile to assume anything of god, its a huge distraction and waste of time. Yeah let the vatican prevent people giving condoms to african americans, so they can still spread aids and babies born with aids, babies who are probably going to starve to death anyways. Yeah believe in your fictional ******** egotistical god and lets have a rational conversation about peace, well you need to drop god before you can be rational. But yeah, you obviously cant prove I cant disprove god either, which should sit well with your logic, so ok lets not argue about this.

And about meaning in lives, religion is an awefullly convenient way to give people purpose and answers, maybe thats why it was made. :O And then god conveniently disapears, by magical coincidence.

But yeah, what should we be talking about in this discussion anyways?


Religion doesn't always = lack of rationality. I'm pretty religious--I attend Mass every week, I pray regularly, I'm part of a faith sharing group, but as you've probably noticed, I don't condone prosecuting people because of their sexuality, belief system, choices, etc etc or preventing an entire people from contraceptives or proper sex education. It's why so many other Catholics have a problem with me. XD

I can also tell you that even with religion, I don't 100% know everything about the meaning of life. I'm constantly facing that dilemma because I'm a storyteller--my entire JOB is figuring out what the meaning of life is, and then telling others what it is through artistic expression, and even then people are gonna take my interpretation and criticize it and either approve or disapprove it.

No storyteller starts out knowing what they're gonna say. I had like three or four drafts for the plot of Mirror of Illusion before I was pleased with it, and even now with half the novel written, I'm cutting out like 60% of it and writing in new scenes or leaving the chapter shorter. I'm sure I'll have to do as much with the second half. And even with all this editing and nitpicking, I'm STILL not 100% sure what I want my ultimate message of the novel to be. I'll probably find out when I get to that crucial point.

I think the biggest issue isn't religion, I think it's that people misuse it to be a weapon, when that's not its purpose. Religion is supposed to be a moral compass and a general place for people to start so they can find the meaning in their lives. It's not an excuse to police or judge people for the way they were born or for the choices they make.

The ultimate goal of Christianity is to love and serve others and make you the BEST VERSION YOU CAN BE, not to prosecute others. That's a lot more compelling and interesting to me than petty notions of who sleeps with who or what someone believes.



"Religion doesn't always = lack of rationality. I'm pretty religious--I attend Mass every week, I pray regularly, I'm part of a faith sharing group,"

Religion may not always mean a lack of rationality, but there is a tendency to be more willing to accept irrational things. Faith, by definition, is the belief in something without any rational evidence.


"I think the biggest issue isn't religion, I think it's that people misuse it to be a weapon, when that's not its purpose. Religion is supposed to be a moral compass and a general place for people to start so they can find the meaning in their lives. It's not an excuse to police or judge people for the way they were born or for the choices they make.

One of the biggest issues is Religion precisely because many use it as a moral compass. They use it to make choices about things in their life which generally have no basis in reality and then try to use this "compass" to point others in the right direction
Sorry I was gone for a minute, Gaia was flipping the hell out there. ""XD

Quote:
It was your defense of christianity. And I obviously didnt assume it when your statement implies it.


Lol, it wasn't really a defense, just more of explaining why some Christians act the way they do, or believe what they do, and stating the fact that religion isn't a 100% answer to everything and not a proper excuse to give others a hard time.

I think you may be reading to much into things or looking for an argument where there isn't one. If I believed Christianity was the only right way, I would have attacked you for your beliefs by now and I wouldn't have the 'no prosecution' rule up there in the first post.

Quote:
Religion may not always mean a lack of rationality, but there is a tendency to be more willing to accept irrational things. Faith, by definition, is the belief in something without any rational evidence.


Very true--rationality wouldn't make much sense for every aspect of religion, since part of it depends on faith.

Quote:
One of the biggest issues is Religion precisely because many use it as a moral compass. They use it to make choices about things in their life which generally have no basis in reality and then try to use this "compass" to point others in the right direction


YOU FORGOT A PERIOD DEKEWK okay I'm done. ""XD

Very true. And it's really sad, because they're not using the reason they were born with. Religion isn't supposed to be easy and I think people assume it's suddenly easy so they do stupid dumb things with it and I could go on a really long rant about the stupidity of religious people but I'm not gonna. ""XD

As I've spent time studying theology and history, I've found that a lot of 'extra stuff' has been tacked onto Christianity throughout history, most notably in the Dark Ages when the Catholic Church was at its height of power and most people weren't educated. There was no one there to be like 'hey yo, I think you might be abusing your power' because they either didn't care or didn't realize it. Aaaaand theeeeeeeeen we have a great big clusterf-ck of mistakes and upset people. biggrin

The Ten Commandments are a great thing to look at for a stripped-down version of Christian doctrines--the teachings of Christ from the Gospel are also good. If you examine each teaching, most of them are things we expect most decent people to follow anyway.

Regardless of religion, it's universally agreed that murdering someone, cheating on your partner(s), being a defiant child to your parents, shoplifting or breaking and entering, lying, and being petty and jealous a good person do not make, even more so if the person KNOWS they're doing something wrong and then goes and does it anyway.

But basically my point is we f-cked up our own religion because we let our pride and greed get the best of us, sadly, and what a mess that's created.

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