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So, as an atheist, I like to bring up all the strange verses in the bible when discussing it (stone your kids, kill gays, etc, etc, I'm sure you've read them). So, when I bring these up, I usually get responses along the lines of "that's from the old testament where they needed strict laws. Jesus made the old testament not apply anymore."

Well, I looked into it, and Jesus promoted the teachings of old testament... a lot. He claimed that the scripture cannot be broken, it is the commandment of god, and "until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished" (John 10:35, Matthew 15:3, and Matthew 5:18 respectively). Jesus also apparently believed the story of Adam and Eve to be true (Matthew 19:1-6).

So, am I reading these correctly? Am I wrong here? I ask these questions honestly, not as an accusation or challenge to Christians. I trust that I am missing something here, because every Christian I have met is adamant about the old testament not applying.


Also, if the old testament somehow did became the "law" today, would you be willing to stone your child to death for being rebellious, as the old testament demands?
A Pharmaceutical Bandit
So, as an atheist, I like to bring up all the strange verses in the bible when discussing it (stone your kids, kill gays, etc, etc, I'm sure you've read them). So, when I bring these up, I usually get responses along the lines of "that's from the old testament where they needed strict laws. Jesus made the old testament not apply anymore."

Well, I looked into it, and Jesus promoted the teachings of old testament... a lot. He claimed that the scripture cannot be broken, it is the commandment of god, and "until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished" (John 10:35, Matthew 15:3, and Matthew 5:18 respectively). Jesus also apparently believed the story of Adam and Eve to be true (Matthew 19:1-6).

So, am I reading these correctly? Am I wrong here? I ask these questions honestly, not as an accusation or challenge to Christians. I trust that I am missing something here, because every Christian I have met is adamant about the old testament not applying.


Also, if the old testament somehow did became the "law" today, would you be willing to stone your child to death for being rebellious, as the old testament demands?


Jesus founded a Church and gave the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter as the head of that Church. Peter, together with Paul and the other Apostles worked out which of the OT laws were to continued and which were to be done away with for the sake of opening the Church to gentiles.
So, is it said which old testament laws are kept and which are tossed aside? Why toss any aside if they are the word of god, and god is perfect, etc.?
Bump, bump. heart
chpmunk
Bump, bump. heart

Is it good when someone bumps the second listed topic? confused
The OT wasn't invalidated. The Law isn't gone (it's still lived by modern Jews). Rather Jesus fulfilled the need for old covenant. The original Law, and the Law that still binds all Christians is the Law of Agape (Love God, Love your neighbor) was seen through the older rules.

I'm going to have point out that "Fulfill" in this context means "to meet the requirement" and "to bring to an end". In fact, it's Matthew 5:17 (among others) that covers this point. The point is that the OT isn't irrelevant, or meaningless. But the OT and the NT topics cover the same things and form two different contracts. You can't forget the history and context, but the same rules that applied then are not the same rules that apply to us.
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HelloNoora
A Pharmaceutical Bandit
So, as an atheist, I like to bring up all the strange verses in the bible when discussing it (stone your kids, kill gays, etc, etc, I'm sure you've read them). So, when I bring these up, I usually get responses along the lines of "that's from the old testament where they needed strict laws. Jesus made the old testament not apply anymore."

Well, I looked into it, and Jesus promoted the teachings of old testament... a lot. He claimed that the scripture cannot be broken, it is the commandment of god, and "until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished" (John 10:35, Matthew 15:3, and Matthew 5:18 respectively). Jesus also apparently believed the story of Adam and Eve to be true (Matthew 19:1-6).

So, am I reading these correctly? Am I wrong here? I ask these questions honestly, not as an accusation or challenge to Christians. I trust that I am missing something here, because every Christian I have met is adamant about the old testament not applying.


Also, if the old testament somehow did became the "law" today, would you be willing to stone your child to death for being rebellious, as the old testament demands?


Jesus founded a Church and gave the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter as the head of that Church. Peter, together with Paul and the other Apostles worked out which of the OT laws were to continued and which were to be done away with for the sake of opening the Church to gentiles.


Peter, Paul, and the Apostles = the very first nit-pickers

I thought the Bible was supposed to be, and I quote, "the infallible word of God." If this is so, how can people simply go "Oh hey, the Gentiles won't take kindly to that part. Let's toss it out, shall we?"
A Soporific
The OT wasn't invalidated. The Law isn't gone (it's still lived by modern Jews). Rather Jesus fulfilled the need for old covenant. The original Law, and the Law that still binds all Christians is the Law of Agape (Love God, Love your neighbor) was seen through the older rules.

I'm going to have point out that "Fulfill" in this context means "to meet the requirement" and "to bring to an end". In fact, it's Matthew 5:17 (among others) that covers this point. The point is that the OT isn't irrelevant, or meaningless. But the OT and the NT topics cover the same things and form two different contracts. You can't forget the history and context, but the same rules that applied then are not the same rules that apply to us.


Okay... so... being a moron, I still don't understand why Christians aren't stoning their sons and killing gays.

Here's my thought process right now:

1. OT = the word of god, as confirmed by Jesus himself.
2. The word of god is infallible.
3. Since god is perfect and his word is infallible, and the OT is indeed the word of god, the OT laws must still stand.

Where is my thought process going wrong?
A Pharmaceutical Bandit
A Soporific
The OT wasn't invalidated. The Law isn't gone (it's still lived by modern Jews). Rather Jesus fulfilled the need for old covenant. The original Law, and the Law that still binds all Christians is the Law of Agape (Love God, Love your neighbor) was seen through the older rules.

I'm going to have point out that "Fulfill" in this context means "to meet the requirement" and "to bring to an end". In fact, it's Matthew 5:17 (among others) that covers this point. The point is that the OT isn't irrelevant, or meaningless. But the OT and the NT topics cover the same things and form two different contracts. You can't forget the history and context, but the same rules that applied then are not the same rules that apply to us.


Okay... so... being a moron, I still don't understand why Christians aren't stoning their sons and killing gays.

Here's my thought process right now:

1. OT = the word of god, as confirmed by Jesus himself.
2. The word of god is infallible.
3. Since god is perfect and his word is infallible, and the OT is indeed the word of god, the OT laws must still stand.

Where is my thought process going wrong?



Well, #1 is somewhat incorrect because Jesus himself didn't follow all the rules set out in the OT. A lot of what he did and preached demonstrated that the way that the Pharises followed the law wasn't quite right. The agreement entered into by the Jews in the beginning of the OT contained rules to keep the jews together as a people in that time and place as well as the core. During the NT Jesus didn't abolish or eliminate the Law, but rather brought everything back to the basic things that God always asked of us. That mostly is don't cheat on YHVH with other deities, and treat others right.

I'll have to hear what you mean exactly by "infallible" to determining if there's anything wrong with #2.

Perfect for what? After all, the perfect comeback in one time and place would fall totally flat somewhere else. Rules designed to help the Hebrew people survive life in the desert just don't work particularly well in modern America, for example. So, as the composition of the followers of YHVH changed so did the minor details.
Well, they did...the even kept some records of people that they killed for silly reasons. It is because the early Christians were Essenes and Nazerenes, who were heavily influenced by Magic and the kabbalah-- they followed Jewish Law--there's no indication that followers were meant to stop following them-- Jesus was only speaking to his people-- not us. He taught his Jews to start loving one another-- good works were for the Jews to do to each other--outsiders weren't treated the same as insiders, that's a fact,. Remember how Jesus mistreated Greeks? Pauli was wasn't chosen to do anything, he didn't even foll,ow Jewish law like the Essenes were taught. Jesus was supposed to restore Israel and bring about the end of the world so the Jews could be raptured--he failed. There were many messiahs that the Jews followed believing that they would restore Israel. Jewish beliefs do not teach much different than Jesus taught. There was a big difference between the sects of Christians in the bible. The Paulines and the Apocalypyics exhibited a difference in political and religious views, though the bible puts all these books into one book, they really shouldn't be put together.

Jewish beliefs and history itself fluctuated throughout the bible. When they made political allies with the Persians they started adding on Persian beliefs, when they were in Egypt, they adopted some religious practices and concepts. Recently, they have killed off some of the old beliefs as they feel that they compete with monotheism.



This is in the Jewish Encyclopedia.
Kimihiro_Watanuki
HelloNoora
A Pharmaceutical Bandit
So, as an atheist, I like to bring up all the strange verses in the bible when discussing it (stone your kids, kill gays, etc, etc, I'm sure you've read them). So, when I bring these up, I usually get responses along the lines of "that's from the old testament where they needed strict laws. Jesus made the old testament not apply anymore."

Well, I looked into it, and Jesus promoted the teachings of old testament... a lot. He claimed that the scripture cannot be broken, it is the commandment of god, and "until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished" (John 10:35, Matthew 15:3, and Matthew 5:18 respectively). Jesus also apparently believed the story of Adam and Eve to be true (Matthew 19:1-6).

So, am I reading these correctly? Am I wrong here? I ask these questions honestly, not as an accusation or challenge to Christians. I trust that I am missing something here, because every Christian I have met is adamant about the old testament not applying.


Also, if the old testament somehow did became the "law" today, would you be willing to stone your child to death for being rebellious, as the old testament demands?


Jesus founded a Church and gave the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter as the head of that Church. Peter, together with Paul and the other Apostles worked out which of the OT laws were to continued and which were to be done away with for the sake of opening the Church to gentiles.


Peter, Paul, and the Apostles = the very first nit-pickers

I thought the Bible was supposed to be, and I quote, "the infallible word of God." If this is so, how can people simply go "Oh hey, the Gentiles won't take kindly to that part. Let's toss it out, shall we?"


It wasn't a case of "the gentiles won't take kindly to it." The rationale was that it was unnecessary or inapplicable for gentiles.

I think a lot of it was also about focusing on the principle of the law, rather than it's letter. Like when you have a child, you tell them "don't touch the stove or you'll burn yourself." As that child grows up, you alter the prohibition - be careful using the stove. The idea remains the same, but the details change according to the child's understanding (or perceived capacity for understanding.)
Ah, the Law and the Old Testament. I was just reading a book on this very topic, the relevancy of the Old Testament to modern Christianity ( The Bible Jesus Read by Yancy, for anyone who cares). Anyways, quick rundown of what I was taught about the law.

The Book of Galatians is a great place to look for information on the law as it applies to Christians. In Galatians chapter three, Paul discusses the very issue of the law.

"But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a presioner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might e justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." -- Galatians 3:21-35


Previous to this Paul discusses how Abraham was justified by faith PRIOR to the giving of the law.

Jesus rather than doing away with the law fullfills it. The punishment, death, for breaking the law (which every single one of us does because we are sinful by our very nature) was taken upon Christ, meeting the demands of the law and freeing us from it.

I think my argument is perhaps a bit disjointed as presented here, but there's so much about it. I'll put it this way, the Book of Galatians is only a handful of pages long in my bible, yet my church spent almost a year on it, taking it a handful of verses at a time because there is so much theology packed into each epistle.
Kimihiro_Watanuki
HelloNoora
A Pharmaceutical Bandit
So, as an atheist, I like to bring up all the strange verses in the bible when discussing it (stone your kids, kill gays, etc, etc, I'm sure you've read them). So, when I bring these up, I usually get responses along the lines of "that's from the old testament where they needed strict laws. Jesus made the old testament not apply anymore."

Well, I looked into it, and Jesus promoted the teachings of old testament... a lot. He claimed that the scripture cannot be broken, it is the commandment of god, and "until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished" (John 10:35, Matthew 15:3, and Matthew 5:18 respectively). Jesus also apparently believed the story of Adam and Eve to be true (Matthew 19:1-6).

So, am I reading these correctly? Am I wrong here? I ask these questions honestly, not as an accusation or challenge to Christians. I trust that I am missing something here, because every Christian I have met is adamant about the old testament not applying.


Also, if the old testament somehow did became the "law" today, would you be willing to stone your child to death for being rebellious, as the old testament demands?


Jesus founded a Church and gave the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter as the head of that Church. Peter, together with Paul and the other Apostles worked out which of the OT laws were to continued and which were to be done away with for the sake of opening the Church to gentiles.


Peter, Paul, and the Apostles = the very first nit-pickers

I thought the Bible was supposed to be, and I quote, "the infallible word of God." If this is so, how can people simply go "Oh hey, the Gentiles won't take kindly to that part. Let's toss it out, shall we?"


That's a great question, honey pie! Sorry I didn't find this until now. The OT laws were designed to protect teh Children of Israel from breaking any of their covenant even by accident, so to speak. They made up their own laws, such as "don't boil meat in the milk of the mother" rules to be extremely picky about not copying anything the local non-Hebrews did.

The idea was for them to be set apart from the pagans and non-covenant people and to not accidentally or in any other way incorporate the practices of these people into their own. When they were captives of Babylon and Egypt, they did get these combined into their own, which was why the tablets of the commandments were given to them as a basic summary of God's Will for them.

Jesus taught his message to the Hebrews in fulfillment of the prophecies and then opened up the Gospel to the entire world. The peculiar people was changed to include the pagan world, and thus we do incorporate the practices and traditions of the pagans into our worship so far as we place God the Father and the Blessed Trinity in our minds strictly as the God we worship and believe.
Kaosgirl
Kimihiro_Watanuki
HelloNoora
A Pharmaceutical Bandit
So, as an atheist, I like to bring up all the strange verses in the bible when discussing it (stone your kids, kill gays, etc, etc, I'm sure you've read them). So, when I bring these up, I usually get responses along the lines of "that's from the old testament where they needed strict laws. Jesus made the old testament not apply anymore."

Well, I looked into it, and Jesus promoted the teachings of old testament... a lot. He claimed that the scripture cannot be broken, it is the commandment of god, and "until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished" (John 10:35, Matthew 15:3, and Matthew 5:18 respectively). Jesus also apparently believed the story of Adam and Eve to be true (Matthew 19:1-6).

So, am I reading these correctly? Am I wrong here? I ask these questions honestly, not as an accusation or challenge to Christians. I trust that I am missing something here, because every Christian I have met is adamant about the old testament not applying.


Also, if the old testament somehow did became the "law" today, would you be willing to stone your child to death for being rebellious, as the old testament demands?


Jesus founded a Church and gave the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter as the head of that Church. Peter, together with Paul and the other Apostles worked out which of the OT laws were to continued and which were to be done away with for the sake of opening the Church to gentiles.


Peter, Paul, and the Apostles = the very first nit-pickers

I thought the Bible was supposed to be, and I quote, "the infallible word of God." If this is so, how can people simply go "Oh hey, the Gentiles won't take kindly to that part. Let's toss it out, shall we?"


It wasn't a case of "the gentiles won't take kindly to it." The rationale was that it was unnecessary or inapplicable for gentiles.

I think a lot of it was also about focusing on the principle of the law, rather than it's letter. Like when you have a child, you tell them "don't touch the stove or you'll burn yourself." As that child grows up, you alter the prohibition - be careful using the stove. The idea remains the same, but the details change according to the child's understanding (or perceived capacity for understanding.)


Wow! That's a better answer than I gave, Kaos old gal! heart heart heart I hope my post above got across the idea of the "letter of the law" explanation. The law doesn't save us, it is love which saves. Love doesn't let us do things to hurt each other and to offend Goodness personified; Divine Love and Mercy Incarnate. heart heart heart
Aporeia's avatar

Obsessive Sage

A Pharmaceutical Bandit
So, as an atheist, I like to bring up all the strange verses in the bible when discussing it (stone your kids, kill gays, etc, etc, I'm sure you've read them). So, when I bring these up, I usually get responses along the lines of "that's from the old testament where they needed strict laws. Jesus made the old testament not apply anymore."

Well, I looked into it, and Jesus promoted the teachings of old testament... a lot. He claimed that the scripture cannot be broken, it is the commandment of god, and "until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished" (John 10:35, Matthew 15:3, and Matthew 5:18 respectively). Jesus also apparently believed the story of Adam and Eve to be true (Matthew 19:1-6).

So, am I reading these correctly? Am I wrong here? I ask these questions honestly, not as an accusation or challenge to Christians. I trust that I am missing something here, because every Christian I have met is adamant about the old testament not applying.


Also, if the old testament somehow did became the "law" today, would you be willing to stone your child to death for being rebellious, as the old testament demands?
Um, I believe you've fallen for the terrible wording of other people. Allow me to clear this up.

Jesus did not "invalidate" the old testament. What Jesus did actually fulfilled many prophecies from the old testament.

What was "invalidated", for lack of a better world, was the need for the old law. This however is a canon idea that has existed since the book of Jeremiah in the OT. Jeremiah said that there would be a new covenant, and that the old one would be no more. This new covenant would not eradicate the old one, it would take its place.

Now, in fact, the new covenant is not drastically different than the old one, but it is noticeable. The old covenant was ceremonial, ritualistic, and specific. It said certain things cannot be done and that certain things should be done. The new covenant replaces it with a more fluctuating since of morality as opposed to law. Things should be done / avoided not because of there being a specific law dealing with it, but because it is inherently right or wrong.

The old covenant is a winding list of words in which people could attempt world-play to try to escape these laws (much like today and the government...). The new covenant is far more simple and far more difficult to conceal your own wrongdoings with.

"Love your neighbor" is such a powerful, all-purpose statement that it is incredibly hard to get around. It is impossible to murder someone in cold blood and say that you were in line with Jesus' teachings.


There are of course other reasons the new covenant that Jesus brought about are different. On a list of ethics, though, it has simple been worded in a more airtight manner, and become less ritualistic. What has changed is the relationship between God and man. That, by far, is much different.

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