Catholic Apologetics [Question and Answer Thread]

Are You Catholic?

Yes	20.9%	[ 9 ]
No	79.1%	[ 34 ]
Total Votes:			[ 43 ]

[StormAndFury]

brother_edward

CitrixRose

brother_edward

CitrixRose

If someone who was raised Catholic and then left the faith and became agnostic, according to the Catholic church, is that person doomed to eternal torment?

I am agnostic and was once Catholic but it's been a few years since I even stepped into a church.

Note: Your answer most likely won't change my mind and bring me back to Catholicism or religion but I do want to know what the Church teaches anyway. Innocent curiosity if you will.

I'm curious, why did you stop going to church?

It wasn't for me. And it still isn't. I'm happier being agnostic. Plus I don't believe a god would send people to hell for following the wrong religion. There are millions, if not billions, of religions. I'm okay with saying I don't know.

Would you mind answering my question now? smile

There are places for those who have not heard the Word and simply live as best they can according to their moral compass.

Eternity is a long time. We can't be sure of the next year, let alone always. But "agnostic" implies that you're seeking the truth. I believe that I have the truth. Therefore, if you're left alone to continue your search, you will come to where I am.

Think what you'd like, I'm not returning to the church. And I'm not seeking anything.

[CuAnnan]

brother_edward

You are claiming that I am personally acting in a certain fashion with a specific motivation.

You are equivocating upon the behaviour of the Catholic Church, attempting to claim that because other evils elsewhere in the world are taking place the evils of the Catholic Church are somehow lesser and that they are, somehow, pinnacles of propriety where it comes to predation of children in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

brother_edward

And where is this utopia in which you reside?

This is ******** sick.
Claiming that the Church being the biggest predators of Children in Ireland makes it a Utopia?

[Lightning the Lulu]

brother_edward

CitrixRose

brother_edward

CitrixRose

If someone who was raised Catholic and then left the faith and became agnostic, according to the Catholic church, is that person doomed to eternal torment?

I am agnostic and was once Catholic but it's been a few years since I even stepped into a church.

Note: Your answer most likely won't change my mind and bring me back to Catholicism or religion but I do want to know what the Church teaches anyway. Innocent curiosity if you will.

I'm curious, why did you stop going to church?

It wasn't for me. And it still isn't. I'm happier being agnostic. Plus I don't believe a god would send people to hell for following the wrong religion. There are millions, if not billions, of religions. I'm okay with saying I don't know.

Would you mind answering my question now? smile

There are places for those who have not heard the Word and simply live as best they can according to their moral compass.

Eternity is a long time. We can't be sure of the next year, let alone always. But "agnostic" implies that you're seeking the truth. I believe that I have the truth. Therefore, if you're left alone to continue your search, you will come to where I am.

Eternity is eternity. Time is a construct. We cannot be sure we are not brains in vats, either, but the problem of hard solipsism is not one that is logical to address on a moment-to-moment basis. "Agnostic" does NOT "imply that you're seeking the truth". The root word of agnostic is gnostic, a form of the word gnosis.

Gnosis is the common Greek noun for knowledge (in the nominative case γνῶσις f.). In the context of the English language gnosis generally refers to the word’s meaning within the spheres of Christian, Islamic, or Jewish mysticism, Mystery religions and Gnosticism where it signifies a “spiritual knowledge” or religion of knowledge, in the sense of mystical enlightenment or “insight”. [Gnosis, Kurt Rudolph, Harper & Row, 1987, p.2]

Origin of GNOSIS
Greek gnōsis, literally, knowledge, from gignōskein
(First Known Use: 1703)

In the English language, the a- prefix is used with a root word to indicate “not” or “without”, eg. apolitical, atheist, apathy, aphasia. There is no variance regarding the correct use of gnosis, this root word always refers to knowledge.

An a-gnostic does "not" (claim that) "it is possible to know" (if gods exist). That's it.

INB4 "But..but...I have this dictionary definition that says otherwise, bluhbluhbluh"...bear in mind that a dictionary is not for the purpose of explaining philosophical positions, it is for the purpose of recording what words mean and how they are used as determined by the majority of speakers/writers of that language and it just so happens the majority of English speakers are not only not philosophers, they are religious, majority Christian.

In other words the dictionary isn't a proper source for a philosophical debate, any more than someone's religious texts are a proper source for grammar references.

I am agnostic, and sincerely doubt I will ever arrive at where you are, because I would have to be convinced it is possible to know if gods exist, then be convinced that what you have is "the truth". From what I have seen of your argument with CuAnnan? That's never going to happen, because I do not think you have a chance at convincing me that the Catholic Church has not operated in the manner of an organized crime institution and anybody who would defend such reprehensible behavior is not selling anything I am interested in buying.

[Lightning the Lulu]

CuAnnan

brother_edward

You are claiming that I am personally acting in a certain fashion with a specific motivation.

You are equivocating upon the behaviour of the Catholic Church, attempting to claim that because other evils elsewhere in the world are taking place the evils of the Catholic Church are somehow lesser and that they are, somehow, pinnacles of propriety where it comes to predation of children in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

brother_edward

And where is this utopia in which you reside?

This is ******** sick.
Claiming that the Church being the biggest predators of Children in Ireland makes it a Utopia?

Good luck, CuAnnan, I don't think I could handle debating this guy without becoming physically ill...what the actual ******** is this guy on about.... emotion_facepalm

[brother_edward]

CuAnnan

brother_edward

You are claiming that I am personally acting in a certain fashion with a specific motivation.

You are equivocating upon the behaviour of the Catholic Church, attempting to claim that because other evils elsewhere in the world are taking place the evils of the Catholic Church are somehow lesser and that they are, somehow, pinnacles of propriety where it comes to predation of children in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

brother_edward

And where is this utopia in which you reside?

This is ******** sick.
Claiming that the Church being the biggest predators of Children in Ireland makes it a Utopia?

Yeah... I may not be from Ireland, but I know Blarney when I hear it.

http://epubs.rcsi.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=psycholrep

[CuAnnan]

brother_edward

Yeah... I may not be from Ireland, but I know Blarney when I hear it.

]http://epubs.rcsi.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=psycholrep

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB09000504
http://www.childabusecommission.ie/public_hearings/transarchive.html

[brother_edward]

CuAnnan

brother_edward

Yeah... I may not be from Ireland, but I know Blarney when I hear it.

http://epubs.rcsi.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=psycholrep

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB09000504
http://www.childabusecommission.ie/public_hearings/transarchive.html

These are specific investigations into specific cases. While any abuse of a child is to say the least unacceptable, this doesn't point to a trend, or the greatest number as you've claimed. I could point to hearings about public schools here in the US, or the Department of Indian Affairs, or a chain of stores. The fact that abuse happens in those areas doesn't make them the main or only culprit.

So, what part of Ireland are you from?

[CuAnnan]

brother_edward

These are specific investigations into specific cases. While any abuse of a child is to say the least unacceptable, this doesn't point to a trend, or the greatest number as you've claimed. I could point to hearings about public schools here in the US, or the Department of Indian Affairs, or a chain of stores. The fact that abuse happens in those areas doesn't make them the main or only culprit.

Statistically, it does.
As is supported by your citation.
Yes, one's parents or uncles may be slightly more likely to be the purportrator, but those people are not unified by anything save their relation to the victim.
The single largest source of predatory sexual offenders in Ireland, according to your citation, is the Catholic Clergy.

brother_edward

So, what part of Ireland are you from?

Inititially? Tallaght.

[Lightning the Lulu]

brother_edward

CuAnnan

brother_edward

Yeah... I may not be from Ireland, but I know Blarney when I hear it.

http://epubs.rcsi.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=psycholrep

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB09000504
http://www.childabusecommission.ie/public_hearings/transarchive.html

These are specific investigations into specific cases.

No, the first source relates to investigations of allegations and suspicions of child abuse against clerics of the entire Archdiocese of Dublin:

The Province of Dublin is one of four ecclesiastical provinces that together form the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland; the other provinces are Armagh, Tuam and Cashel. The geographical remit of the province includes all of counties Fingal, South Dublin, Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown, most of County Wicklow, and fragments of counties Kildare, Carlow, Wexford and Laois. Altogether it covers an area of 698,277 statute acres.

The Archdiocese is served by around 700 priests, about one quarter of whom are "on loan" from religious orders (along with a few from the Archdiocese of Cashel). Most priests minister in parishes, with a small number involved in administrative roles or serving on special diocesan projects.

Quote:

While any abuse of a child is to say the least unacceptable, this doesn't point to a trend, or the greatest number as you've claimed. I could point to hearings about public schools here in the US, or the Department of Indian Affairs, or a chain of stores.

Please demonstrate the logical connection between statistics on child abuse involving the Catholic Church (which is a worldwide organization) and the Department of Indian Affairs (what does that have to do with child abuse?) and a chain of stores (really, I must know what that has to do with trends in child abuse). You can point to your big toe, but you won't be making a logical connection to what's being discussed.

Quote:

The fact that abuse happens in those areas doesn't make them the main or only culprit.

Not being the main culprit (which I am not convinced is not the case) or the only culprit (which I agree is likely not to be the case) does not in any way whatsoever indicate a decrease in the danger they represent.

Quote:

So, what part of Ireland are you from?

Irrelevant. CuAnnan himself does not have to be a victim nor have been in the vicinity of a perpetrator for him to be aware of a trend in the entire country (not to mention the planet).

[brother_edward]

CuAnnan

brother_edward

These are specific investigations into specific cases. While any abuse of a child is to say the least unacceptable, this doesn't point to a trend, or the greatest number as you've claimed. I could point to hearings about public schools here in the US, or the Department of Indian Affairs, or a chain of stores. The fact that abuse happens in those areas doesn't make them the main or only culprit.

Statistically, it does.
As is supported by your citation.
Yes, one's parents or uncles may be slightly more likely to be the purportrator, but those people are not unified by anything save their relation to the victim.
The single largest source of predatory sexual offenders in Ireland, according to your citation, is the Catholic Clergy.

brother_edward

So, what part of Ireland are you from?

Inititially? Tallaght.

According to my citation, the single largest source of predatory sexual offenders is Family, and by a large margin. And statistics would tell us that our numbers are only as good as our reporting, and as historically sexual crimes especially against minors go unreported, it's difficult at best to draw a valid statistical conclusion.

Now that things are settling down a bit, I'd like to bring up the fact that the reason I'm so quick to point out the failure of child protection in public schools is that heads rolled over the catholic abuse scandal. I'm not as familiar with the situation in Ireland, but I know that over here discipline against teachers is rare enough to be reported on and debated on it's own. That's significant, as there are and have been many more children hurt in this way at school, but the dangers are never told to us.

I've never been to East Ireland. One of my most cherished memories, however, is landing in Shannon. We got off the plane right on the tarmac and it was raining ever so softly, just enough to bring the smell of *green* to the air. We couldn't see anything really, but we could smell that we were some place alive.

[CuAnnan]

brother_edward

According to my citation, the single largest source of predatory sexual offenders is Family, and by a large margin.

And if everyone in Ireland were the same family, you'd have an argument there.
They're not, though.

[Kaworu 17]

brother_edward

And yet you hear these words used about catholics. It's a plague, it's an epidemic, it's a cover-up, it's an on-going issue, there has been no movement forward. Which is hogwash. There have been hundreds of priests investigated over the last ten years, and dozens of them defrocked and turned over to civil authorities. Dozens more have been removed from parishes without evidence, simply on suspicion.

And what do you hear about when a female teacher becomes pregnant by a twelve year old boy?

Crickets.

The fact that the mainstream media and the secularists are constantly bombarding news of the sex abuse scandal while ignoring the much higher rates of molestation in families and schools is in itself a form of cover-up.

[Lightning the Lulu]

Kaworu 17

brother_edward

And yet you hear these words used about catholics. It's a plague, it's an epidemic, it's a cover-up, it's an on-going issue, there has been no movement forward. Which is hogwash. There have been hundreds of priests investigated over the last ten years, and dozens of them defrocked and turned over to civil authorities. Dozens more have been removed from parishes without evidence, simply on suspicion.

And what do you hear about when a female teacher becomes pregnant by a twelve year old boy?

Crickets.

The fact that the mainstream media and the secularists are constantly bombarding news of the sex abuse scandal while ignoring the much higher rates of molestation in families and schools is in itself a form of cover-up.

It is not a form of cover-up to point out that the Catholic Church is operating as an organized crime institution, with respect to the moving and hiding of offenders. That is not ignoring the rates of molestation in any other demographic; it is pointing to a data set that is unique to the Catholic Church.

Please keep crying about secularists, though. I water my plants with those tears.

[CuAnnan]

Kaworu 17

The fact that the mainstream media and the secularists are constantly bombarding news of the sex abuse scandal while ignoring the much higher rates of molestation in families and schools is in itself a form of cover-up.

I love the way you, personally, propogate the lie that our complaint is about rates when you, personally, have been told repeatedly it's about the post-abuse institutional behaviour.

[Kaworu 17]

The Legendary Guest

It is not a form of cover-up to point out that the Catholic Church is operating as an organized crime institution, with respect to the moving and hiding of offenders. That is not ignoring the rates of molestation in any other demographic; it is pointing to a data set that is unique to the Catholic Church.

"It's not a form of cover-up to cherry pick."

Yes, it is.