Can we just talk?

[TANRailgun]

Yo! Your friendly neighborhood Agnostic Atheist here. Despite my lack of belief, I find religion and all the things that come with it fascinating, and I'm afraid that in the desolate wasteland of human decency that is the internet, good conversations about religion between believers and non-believers are quite hard to come by, and so I find myself a bit starved for conversation.

I don't want to attack you or your religion, I'm not an Anti-theist, or "New Atheist" or whatever the ********, I just want to have an open and honest conversation.

On the other hand, I don't appreciate overt conversion attempts, so if you're going to try it, please don't. I've done everything in my, your, and gods power to make myself believe, it ain't happenin and you aren't going to be the one to change that. Please don't try.

Why don't we start with introductions, I'll go first:


Hi, I'm TANRailgun, you can just call me "tan" if you wish.

I'm an Agnostic Atheist, meaning I don't believe in god, but don't claim to know, as I believe that if a god were to exist they would be unknowable.

I believe I am one of the few Atheists who as never believed, I went to church as a kid, went to Sunday school, even went to a Lutheran school for kindergarten, but I honestly do not remember a time when I ever believed. I went through the motions, did what was expected of me, and never resented it. Sure I was pretty bored most of the time, but it wasn't all bad.

I didn't even know what an Atheist was until High School, and once I found out that I was not only in a minority, but an extremely unpopular minority I spent the next 4 or so years trying to convince myself to believe in something. I have long since accepted my incapability to embrace faith and decided to continue my studies in various religions but as an observer rather than a convert.

I can get kind of defensive sometimes and I sometimes can be pretty blunt, or even combative, so I apologize ahead of time if that happens.


Ok, now your turn.

For a topic...hmm...how about "What is your (or your religion's) stance on the nature of Good and Evil (How do you define them, were they created or are they constants, how do they relate, what are consequences and/or punishments for each, that kind of thing)". That seems like a good place to start...or whatever you want to talk about, really doesn't matter to me.

Man, I'm just waiting for the mods, to move this to chatterbox.

[Dieu des hommes]

I'm a God of man and I'm a nihilist. I believe in nothing. Nothing. And tomorrow I'll come back and cut off your toes because whatever.

Seriously though I don't care to read into meta-ethics enough to take a stance on any of it.

[TANRailgun]

Dieu des hommes

I'm a God of man and I'm a nihilist. I believe in nothing. Nothing. And tomorrow I'll come back and cut off your toes because whatever.

Seriously though I don't care to read into meta-ethics enough to take a stance on any of it.

Ok, is there anything you would like to talk about?

[King Shining Heaven]

What is your (or your religion's) stance on the nature of Good and Evil
My religion's stance on good and evil is basically obedience. One is "good" by following the guidelines that God has set down, and one is 'bad" when they sin, or disobey the law of God.


Were they created or are they constants
Sin came into the world as a result of the Original Sin, the first disobedience of God's will



What are consequences and/or punishments for each, that kind of thing
All sin is punishable by eternal damnation. However, if one asks for forgiveness and repents for their sins, it is washed away

[TANRailgun]

Young King under Heaven

What is your (or your religion's) stance on the nature of Good and Evil
My religion's stance on good and evil is basically obedience. One is "good" by following the guidelines that God has set down, and one is 'bad" when they sin, or disobey the law of God.


Were they created or are they constants
Sin came into the world as a result of the Original Sin, the first disobedience of God's will



What are consequences and/or punishments for each, that kind of thing
All sin is punishable by eternal damnation. However, if one asks for forgiveness and repents for their sins, it is washed away

So pretty much toeing the Abrahamic moral line. That's fine, here's another question: When, if ever, is ok to disobey god? What if you come across a situation where "doing the right thing" means disobeying? For example: Pulling an a** out of a pit on the Sabbath? On the one hand, you're not supposed to do work on the Sabbath, yet if you do nothing, the a** (in this context meaning "donkey" ) will die due to your neglect. What are some situations where you might disobey god in order to do good?

[Samadhi23]

TANRailgun

Young King under Heaven

What is your (or your religion's) stance on the nature of Good and Evil
My religion's stance on good and evil is basically obedience. One is "good" by following the guidelines that God has set down, and one is 'bad" when they sin, or disobey the law of God.


Were they created or are they constants
Sin came into the world as a result of the Original Sin, the first disobedience of God's will



What are consequences and/or punishments for each, that kind of thing
All sin is punishable by eternal damnation. However, if one asks for forgiveness and repents for their sins, it is washed away

So pretty much toeing the Abrahamic moral line. That's fine, here's another question: When, if ever, is ok to disobey god? What if you come across a situation where "doing the right thing" means disobeying? For example: Pulling an a** out of a pit on the Sabbath? On the one hand, you're not supposed to do work on the Sabbath, yet if you do nothing, the a** (in this context meaning "donkey" ) will die due to your neglect. What are some situations where you might disobey god in order to do good?

Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling spent a lot of time looking at that problem. His conclusion was pretty straight-forward: there is no such thing as black and white morality; there is only following god or not following god. As such, there is no command except the command given to you directly from god. Anything else would best be termed a guideline.

So for his example, "thou shall not kill" is a guideline for all of humanity, not a law (outside of the specific context where it was given as a law i.e. ancient Israel). In most circumstances, not killing someone would be morally correct, so the platitude still holds value as a general guideline. If taken to its extreme, however, it leads to contradictions - which "law" should be followed when there is a seeming contradiction?

The person in touch with divinity will not even see a contradiction; they would be able to ignore any artificial moral standards to do what was right for the specific situation and personalities involved. The person who is worshiping books and documents instead of the divine itself, however, will be trapped in an endless application of legalistic strategies and logical manipulations entirely unrelated to the actual.

R.A.Wilson referred to this phenomena as confusing the map (our mental image of the actual) with the territory (the actual), although this might have been him regurgitating Korzybski. I would propose that abrahamic regulations against idol-worship are ultimately striving after the same concept.

[King Shining Heaven]

TANRailgun

Young King under Heaven

What is your (or your religion's) stance on the nature of Good and Evil
My religion's stance on good and evil is basically obedience. One is "good" by following the guidelines that God has set down, and one is 'bad" when they sin, or disobey the law of God.


Were they created or are they constants
Sin came into the world as a result of the Original Sin, the first disobedience of God's will



What are consequences and/or punishments for each, that kind of thing
All sin is punishable by eternal damnation. However, if one asks for forgiveness and repents for their sins, it is washed away

So pretty much toeing the Abrahamic moral line. That's fine, here's another question: When, if ever, is ok to disobey god? What if you come across a situation where "doing the right thing" means disobeying? For example: Pulling an a** out of a pit on the Sabbath? On the one hand, you're not supposed to do work on the Sabbath, yet if you do nothing, the a** (in this context meaning "donkey" ) will die due to your neglect. What are some situations where you might disobey god in order to do good?

I may be wrong, but I believe there's an interpretation that the Sabbath is to be used as we wish it to be, so pulling the a** out of a pit would be fine. As for anything else, I'm not sure

[Fermionic]

I actively believe religious thought originates in the human condition, and as a relic from our cultural development, as opposed to any transcendental truth captured in word and ritual.

[TANRailgun]

Fermionic

I actively believe religious thought originates in the human condition, and as a relic from our cultural development, as opposed to any transcendental truth captured in word and ritual.

I would agree with that statement, and I find it fascinating.

[TANRailgun]

Young King under Heaven

TANRailgun

Young King under Heaven

What is your (or your religion's) stance on the nature of Good and Evil
My religion's stance on good and evil is basically obedience. One is "good" by following the guidelines that God has set down, and one is 'bad" when they sin, or disobey the law of God.


Were they created or are they constants
Sin came into the world as a result of the Original Sin, the first disobedience of God's will



What are consequences and/or punishments for each, that kind of thing
All sin is punishable by eternal damnation. However, if one asks for forgiveness and repents for their sins, it is washed away

So pretty much toeing the Abrahamic moral line. That's fine, here's another question: When, if ever, is ok to disobey god? What if you come across a situation where "doing the right thing" means disobeying? For example: Pulling an a** out of a pit on the Sabbath? On the one hand, you're not supposed to do work on the Sabbath, yet if you do nothing, the a** (in this context meaning "donkey" ) will die due to your neglect. What are some situations where you might disobey god in order to do good?

I may be wrong, but I believe there's an interpretation that the Sabbath is to be used as we wish it to be, so pulling the a** out of a pit would be fine. As for anything else, I'm not sure

That's fine, and pretty much all but the most orthodox believers pretty much ignore the Sabbath anyway, so it was a bit of a dated question, I just couldn't think of a different one that wasn't something extreme like "would you kill to protect life" or something with a relatively obvious moral answer.

Uh...I don't know, you have anything you want to talk about? Questions for me or tangents you would like to pursue....I'm starvin here man, give me somethin...

[rmcdra]

TANRailgun

"What is your (or your religion's) stance on the nature of Good and Evil (How do you define them, were they created or are they constants, how do they relate, what are consequences and/or punishments for each, that kind of thing)". That seems like a good place to start...or whatever you want to talk about, really doesn't matter to me.

Good is defined in my religion as the presence of love in one's actions and evil is defined as it's absence. I'm not talking about hallmark crap kind of love but the kind of love one shows to those you regard as family (not in the biological family sense). I don't know if it was created or not, I know that its been around for a long time. Since love in my religion is closely connected with the concept of being honest with oneself and those you are connected with in your life it's not completely clear cut and requires self-reflection. While there are some actions that can be clearly defined as good and bad, there's a lot of grey area that you kinda have to deal with and make sense of. As long as you are trying to do your best in your particular circumstances that's what's most important. As for consequences, it's kinda in the eye of the beholder. Lacking in love toward others to me makes life kinda dull and not as fulfilling, like I'm just part of the background but I'm sure someone could see a benefit from it.

[Dieu des hommes]

TANRailgun

Dieu des hommes

I'm a God of man and I'm a nihilist. I believe in nothing. Nothing. And tomorrow I'll come back and cut off your toes because whatever.

Seriously though I don't care to read into meta-ethics enough to take a stance on any of it.

Ok, is there anything you would like to talk about?

Hmm. I've always wondered whether there is much of a connection between the moral system a person subscribes to, and their actual behaviour. For example, we hear every other month a famous homophobic televangelist being caught having a homosexual affair. Or we have the entire Catholic ****** affair. You have Buddhists in areas of South-East Asia attacking Muslims. They're clearly behaving in contradiction to their moral systems, so is it safe to think that moral systems even convince human behaviour in any significant way? It seems to me that every nihilist I have met appears to be a productive member of society, but why do they behave in what would conventionally be considered a moral life, if they are amoral. Maybe people are more likely to subscribe to a claimed objective moral system if they feel urges that are conventionally considered immoral by most of society. Think about some of the most prolific serial killers. Many still attended church, prayed and even sought forgiveness for what they did. The obvious diversion from this are people who set up their own moral systems, and they're more than likely to be reflective of their own personal desires and dreams. I've brought myself to the conclusion that people just do the things they do regardless of any respective moral systems. So in this respect any claim to an objective moral system is inherently useless, because humans will do the same things regardless. It's like telling people not to breathe.

[Aporeia]

TANRailgun

What is your (or your religion's) stance on the nature of Good and Evil (How do you define them, were they created or are they constants, how do they relate, what are consequences and/or punishments for each, that kind of thing)

My beliefs are personal.

I am unsure of the nature of good and evil, but I have some personal ideas. I think man was once like the beasts we separate ourselves from. Whether we are a creation of God, or merely an augmentation is uncertain, but what I think is more visible is that man achieved sentience, and this was an object of God's attention. Some believe this sentience is a gift from God, others believe it was the fall of man. There is wisdom in both, and perhaps they can both be true. In contemplation of evil, man obtained something new, the ability to regret a decision before going through with it. Man learned to see his acts as evil, and when given the opportunity to turn away, they pursued.

This is evil, defined, I think. When you hold yourself accountable before the act has even begun, to act evil is to be evil. That was the fall of man, his unrepentant path through evil.

I have done much wrong, and suffered much because of it. When I see others who can do such evil in spite of such suffering, I hate them for what they have chosen to become. It is not the act that disturbs me, but the person behind these arms. Who could, so willingly, dawn these demons as themselves? What manner of person could act without prior reservations, and guilt afterwords? Have they learned not to suffer, or have they becoming suffering themselves? How do they not despise themselves?

I wish no harm to them, and it is not my place to decide their fates, but when what we deserve can often be unclear, for them, it is not. The acts have existed long before man, but man has become them. Am I evil? I do not know, but I do not intend to be. What can be said for those that do?

[shadow22cat]

I just have to say not all religions are the same including the so-called 'Abrahamic' ones. That's almost an offensive term. Same with 'Judeo-Christian'. We are not the same. I'm Jewish, and the general idea about good and evil in our religion is that there has to be 'evil' in order for us to know 'good'. There has to be a balance. That's how we tend to answer the question of why something bad happens to good people is that they had to know the bad in order to appreciate the good. But, this can be hard to swallow for some. Our idea of 'sin' is that you missed the mark with something. Doesn't necessarily mean it was bad, but you didn't quite make the right decision or that you didn't know it was wrong to begin with.

As for the 'disobeying' G-d thing, if something is life threatening you're exempt from it. For example, if you don't fast on Yom Kippur, that's a sin. But, people with medical conditions (they have to do something like take meds with food and water), little children, pregnant women, and the elderly are exempt from it. It'd be a sin to not eat for them. If you follow all the laws for Shabbat (and it's not just the orthodox that do...), it's ok to break them in order to save a life. Like, if there's an emergency of some sort you can pick up the phone and call 911. G-d doesn't want us to knowingly and essentially kill ourselves just to follow everything to a 'T'. It's not really disobeying, it's just different laws for certain circumstances.

[kinnykins]

i think that Hell is evil. the concept of it is sick, and i find it paradoxical to the concept of a god that is all-powerful and benevolent.

that's it. i don't think evil is a thing, since that's too objective a thing. i believe in sickness. i believe in misled sheep.
the closest thing to evil that i think actually exists is insurance companies.