C.S. Lewis Quote

[Lady Vizsla]

Quote:

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Criticisms

[ratgirl34]

I love C.S. Lewis as an author, but I don't accept him as a good representation of logical thinking.

I find it just silly that we can call Jesus a lunatic or a demon for preaching the things he did, much of which was promoting tolerance. But he can't just be a guy with an idea.

So people like Martin Luther King Jr. are either demons, lunatics, or products of Yahweh's sex life, because good people with amazing charisma don't just happen.

[IronySandwich]

ratgirl34

I love C.S. Lewis as an author, but I don't accept him as a good representation of logical thinking.

I find it just silly that we can call Jesus a lunatic or a demon for preaching the things he did, much of which was promoting tolerance. But he can't just be a guy with an idea.

So people like Martin Luther King Jr. are either demons, lunatics, or products of Yahweh's sex life, because good people with amazing charisma don't just happen.

It's not the promotion of tolerance that the demon, lunatic, lord thing comes from, it's the preaching of abandoning your family and how no one gets to God but through him, etc. Those are the sorts of things a lunatic/charlatan would say.

Of course, the single biggest fault with the statement is a very simple one. It assumes all words attributed to Jesus were actually spoken by him. If people today started a religion worshiping MLK Jr, and write a book attributing all sorts of miracles and how he says he is the new way to God and so on, that doesn't mean MLK Jr. actually performed miracles or made any claim to divinity. By far the most likely scenario is that the Jesus of the bible is a fictional character who is at best loosely based on a real person.

[Very Horrorshow]

Okay then, Mr. Lewis, I reject him as a teacher as well. Happy?

[ratgirl34]

IronySandwich

ratgirl34

I love C.S. Lewis as an author, but I don't accept him as a good representation of logical thinking.

I find it just silly that we can call Jesus a lunatic or a demon for preaching the things he did, much of which was promoting tolerance. But he can't just be a guy with an idea.

So people like Martin Luther King Jr. are either demons, lunatics, or products of Yahweh's sex life, because good people with amazing charisma don't just happen.

It's not the promotion of tolerance that the demon, lunatic, lord thing comes from, it's the preaching of abandoning your family and how no one gets to God but through him, etc. Those are the sorts of things a lunatic/charlatan would say.

Of course, the single biggest fault with the statement is a very simple one. It assumes all words attributed to Jesus were actually spoken by him. If people today started a religion worshiping MLK Jr, and write a book attributing all sorts of miracles and how he says he is the new way to God and so on, that doesn't mean MLK Jr. actually performed miracles or made any claim to divinity. By far the most likely scenario is that the Jesus of the bible is a fictional character who is at best loosely based on a real person.

Which just makes me think of a passing theory I had a few months ago. Please note that I have done no research or study to look into the theory.

Based on some of the little things, I'm not entirely convinced that when he said that he's the son of god that he meant it in a way that implied that he was 'genetically' related to Yahweh. He spoke of Yahweh as being the father of all mankind, and said that everything he did everyone else is capable of and then some.

I don't agree with leaving all possessions and family behind to follow a religion. But I don't see it as being totally crazy or demonic either. For the right ideology I'd drop everything, maybe not family, but my possessions for sure. My only stipulation would be that my money doesn't go to the group I'm joining but an independent charity.

[haunting heaven]

better C.S. Lewis quote

[C]ould one seriously introduce the idea of a bad God, as it were by the back door, through a sort of extreme Calvinism? You could say we are fallen and depraved. We are so depraved that our ideas of goodness count for nothing; or worse than nothing — the very fact that we think something good is presumptive evidence that it is really bad. Now God has in fact — our worst fears are true — all the characteristics we regard as bad: unreasonableness, vanity, vindictiveness, injustice, cruelty. But all these [negatives] (as they seem to us) are really [positives]. It’s only our depravity makes them look [negative] to us.

And so what? This, for all practical (and speculative) purposes sponges God off the slate. The word good, applied to [God], becomes meaningless: like abracadabra. We have no motive for obeying [God]. Not even fear. It is true we have [God's] threats and promises. But why should we believe them? If cruelty is from [God's] point of view 'good,' telling lies may be 'good' too. Even if they are true, what then? If [God's] ideas of good are so very different from ours, what [God] calls 'Heaven' might well be what we should call Hell, and vice-versa. Finally, if reality at its very root is so meaningless to us — or, putting it the other way round, if we are such total imbeciles — what is the point of trying to think either about God or about anything else? This knot comes undone when you try to pull it tight.

Keep that in mind during discussions of whether or not humanity can judge the actions of God as moral or immoral.

Also, even if Jesus were mentally ill, could he not still be a great moral teacher? Like... the idea that they're mutually exclusive is really messed up.

[bogosghost1]

ratgirl34

I love C.S. Lewis as an author, but I don't accept him as a good representation of logical thinking.

I find it just silly that we can call Jesus a lunatic or a demon for preaching the things he did, much of which was promoting tolerance. But he can't just be a guy with an idea.

I don't think that Jesus promoted tolerance. The definition of tolerance is being able to tolerate something that you don't agree with in people, or put up with it. It's saying "well, I don't really like these people or what they're doing, but I'll put up with it. We can all get along."

When people say that Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors, as in he was accepting of their lifestyles, they're missing how much he emphasizes that it's important for people to turn from their sin. Tolerating someone is putting up with them but disagreeing, while Jesus loved people enough to tell them that they needed to follow him and quit their lifestyles

John 8:11 - "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

From the story where people were going to stone an adulterous woman, but Jesus said "let he who is without sin throw the first stone." However, he didn't say that it was okay for her to be an adulteress, but he told her to go and leave your life of sin.

Quote:

So people like Martin Luther King Jr. are either demons, lunatics, or products of Yahweh's sex life, because good people with amazing charisma don't just happen.

Except Martin Luther King Jr. never claimed some of the things that Jesus claimed.

John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

That's a pretty big claim, and central to Christian doctrine.

[ratgirl34]

bogosghost1

ratgirl34

I love C.S. Lewis as an author, but I don't accept him as a good representation of logical thinking.

I find it just silly that we can call Jesus a lunatic or a demon for preaching the things he did, much of which was promoting tolerance. But he can't just be a guy with an idea.

I don't think that Jesus promoted tolerance. The definition of tolerance is being able to tolerate something that you don't agree with in people, or put up with it. It's saying "well, I don't really like these people or what they're doing, but I'll put up with it. We can all get along."

When people say that Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors, as in he was accepting of their lifestyles, they're missing how much he emphasizes that it's important for people to turn from their sin. Tolerating someone is putting up with them but disagreeing, while Jesus loved people enough to tell them that they needed to follow him and quit their lifestyles

John 8:11 - "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

From the story where people were going to stone an adulterous woman, but Jesus said "let he who is without sin throw the first stone." However, he didn't say that it was okay for her to be an adulteress, but he told her to go and leave your life of sin.

Quote:

So people like Martin Luther King Jr. are either demons, lunatics, or products of Yahweh's sex life, because good people with amazing charisma don't just happen.

Except Martin Luther King Jr. never claimed some of the things that Jesus claimed.

John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

That's a pretty big claim, and central to Christian doctrine.

I think people who take religion seriously are wasting their time, I still have religious friends and talk to religious relatives. I don't think that they deserve to be punished for thinking or behaving differently from me.

I fail to see how that is so much different from Jesus' accepting people's lifestyles in the Bible. If I were as charismatic as Jesus apparently was... I'd probably think nothing of talking them into giving up religion. I'm sure that the only reason why presently I think that would be an infringement on their rights is because I don't have that 'ability.'

True that Martin Luther King Jr. isn't recorded as saying that he is the son of Yahweh, it was an example given to show how silly that part of Lewis Carols statement was. That a good moral teacher has to be either insane, a demon, or the son of a god... That's just stupid. If it were true it would be able to apply to all good moral teachers. The statement was suggesting that it is impossible for Jesus to be a mere man, that it is insensible to take him as simply a moral teacher.

I'm skeptical about how much of what the Bible says is a quote from Jesus is something he actually said, or at least not verbatim. He also said that everything he did we are all capable of and then some, suggesting that it is not necessary to be the child of Yahweh to cure diseases, turn water into wine or walk on water. And since according to Jesus all Christians are children of Yahweh, it sometimes leads me to wonder if he is being misquoted in verses like the one you posted. Of course that is uneducated postulating.

[bogosghost1]

ratgirl34

bogosghost1

ratgirl34

I love C.S. Lewis as an author, but I don't accept him as a good representation of logical thinking.

I find it just silly that we can call Jesus a lunatic or a demon for preaching the things he did, much of which was promoting tolerance. But he can't just be a guy with an idea.

I don't think that Jesus promoted tolerance. The definition of tolerance is being able to tolerate something that you don't agree with in people, or put up with it. It's saying "well, I don't really like these people or what they're doing, but I'll put up with it. We can all get along."

When people say that Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors, as in he was accepting of their lifestyles, they're missing how much he emphasizes that it's important for people to turn from their sin. Tolerating someone is putting up with them but disagreeing, while Jesus loved people enough to tell them that they needed to follow him and quit their lifestyles

John 8:11 - "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

From the story where people were going to stone an adulterous woman, but Jesus said "let he who is without sin throw the first stone." However, he didn't say that it was okay for her to be an adulteress, but he told her to go and leave your life of sin.

Quote:

So people like Martin Luther King Jr. are either demons, lunatics, or products of Yahweh's sex life, because good people with amazing charisma don't just happen.

Except Martin Luther King Jr. never claimed some of the things that Jesus claimed.

John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

That's a pretty big claim, and central to Christian doctrine.

I think people who take religion seriously are wasting their time, I still have religious friends and talk to religious relatives. I don't think that they deserve to be punished for thinking or behaving differently from me.

Well when it comes to Christianity the doctrine of original sin, and that all people are sinful is really important, which is why there's so much trying to change lifestyles, if you will, and why there's such a big emphasis on sin and people repenting of sin in the Bible

Quote:

I fail to see how that is so much different from Jesus' accepting people's lifestyles in the Bible. If I were as charismatic as Jesus apparently was... I'd probably think nothing of talking them into giving up religion. I'm sure that the only reason why presently I think that would be an infringement on their rights is because I don't have that 'ability.'

Wait so how is Jesus accepting of people's lifestyles and how does Jesus show a message of tolerance?

Matthew 7:13-14 - “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Quote:

True that Martin Luther King Jr. isn't recorded as saying that he is the son of Yahweh, it was an example given to show how silly that part of Lewis Carols statement was. That a good moral teacher has to be either insane, a demon, or the son of a god... That's just stupid. If it were true it would be able to apply to all good moral teachers. The statement was suggesting that it is impossible for Jesus to be a mere man, that it is insensible to take him as simply a moral teacher.

But you're going off of the assumption that Jesus claimed to be just a good and moral teacher. He didn't, he claimed to be the son of God, that's what I'm saying. Although the good moral teacher could fit into the liar category of the illustration, as in Jesus lied about being the son of God, when he was really just a teacher. The liar, lunatic, lord thing is all about Jesus' divinity.

Quote:

I'm skeptical about how much of what the Bible says is a quote from Jesus is something he actually said, or at least not verbatim. He also said that everything he did we are all capable of and then some, suggesting that it is not necessary to be the child of Yahweh to cure diseases, turn water into wine or walk on water. And since according to Jesus all Christians are children of Yahweh, it sometimes leads me to wonder if he is being misquoted in verses like the one you posted. Of course that is uneducated postulating.

Well if you don't believe that Jesus said those words, or that they were paraphrased wrong or something, you may not trust in the Bible from the start. If your view is that he was misquoted or that elements about his divinity was something made up by man, we're free to believe or be skeptical of what we want, but my point was that going off of what the Bible says, the illustration of liar, lunatic, or lord is good. Sure you may not agree or say that Jesus was just a good teacher, but that's ignoring several passages about his divinity and the role he played as an atoning sacrifice for sin. That's what's so important, but often times that's exactly what's left out when talking about Jesus. Also, it seems we have an immediate assumption to think that everything "supernatural" must be false. That's why people say that he was just a good teacher because if you don't accept the supernatural, than it won't make sense (but at the same time Jesus is treated very clearly as the divine son of God. I could give you a lot of verses).

[ratgirl34]

bogosghost1

ratgirl34

bogosghost1

ratgirl34

I love C.S. Lewis as an author, but I don't accept him as a good representation of logical thinking.

I find it just silly that we can call Jesus a lunatic or a demon for preaching the things he did, much of which was promoting tolerance. But he can't just be a guy with an idea.

I don't think that Jesus promoted tolerance. The definition of tolerance is being able to tolerate something that you don't agree with in people, or put up with it. It's saying "well, I don't really like these people or what they're doing, but I'll put up with it. We can all get along."

When people say that Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors, as in he was accepting of their lifestyles, they're missing how much he emphasizes that it's important for people to turn from their sin. Tolerating someone is putting up with them but disagreeing, while Jesus loved people enough to tell them that they needed to follow him and quit their lifestyles

John 8:11 - "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

From the story where people were going to stone an adulterous woman, but Jesus said "let he who is without sin throw the first stone." However, he didn't say that it was okay for her to be an adulteress, but he told her to go and leave your life of sin.

Quote:

So people like Martin Luther King Jr. are either demons, lunatics, or products of Yahweh's sex life, because good people with amazing charisma don't just happen.

Except Martin Luther King Jr. never claimed some of the things that Jesus claimed.

John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

That's a pretty big claim, and central to Christian doctrine.

I think people who take religion seriously are wasting their time, I still have religious friends and talk to religious relatives. I don't think that they deserve to be punished for thinking or behaving differently from me.

Well when it comes to Christianity the doctrine of original sin, and that all people are sinful is really important, which is why there's so much trying to change lifestyles, if you will, and why there's such a big emphasis on sin and people repenting of sin in the Bible

Quote:

I fail to see how that is so much different from Jesus' accepting people's lifestyles in the Bible. If I were as charismatic as Jesus apparently was... I'd probably think nothing of talking them into giving up religion. I'm sure that the only reason why presently I think that would be an infringement on their rights is because I don't have that 'ability.'

Wait so how is Jesus accepting of people's lifestyles and how does Jesus show a message of tolerance?

Matthew 7:13-14 - “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Quote:

True that Martin Luther King Jr. isn't recorded as saying that he is the son of Yahweh, it was an example given to show how silly that part of Lewis Carols statement was. That a good moral teacher has to be either insane, a demon, or the son of a god... That's just stupid. If it were true it would be able to apply to all good moral teachers. The statement was suggesting that it is impossible for Jesus to be a mere man, that it is insensible to take him as simply a moral teacher.

But you're going off of the assumption that Jesus claimed to be just a good and moral teacher. He didn't, he claimed to be the son of God, that's what I'm saying. Although the good moral teacher could fit into the liar category of the illustration, as in Jesus lied about being the son of God, when he was really just a teacher. The liar, lunatic, lord thing is all about Jesus' divinity.

Quote:

I'm skeptical about how much of what the Bible says is a quote from Jesus is something he actually said, or at least not verbatim. He also said that everything he did we are all capable of and then some, suggesting that it is not necessary to be the child of Yahweh to cure diseases, turn water into wine or walk on water. And since according to Jesus all Christians are children of Yahweh, it sometimes leads me to wonder if he is being misquoted in verses like the one you posted. Of course that is uneducated postulating.

Well if you don't believe that Jesus said those words, or that they were paraphrased wrong or something, you may not trust in the Bible from the start. If your view is that he was misquoted or that elements about his divinity was something made up by man, we're free to believe or be skeptical of what we want, but my point was that going off of what the Bible says, the illustration of liar, lunatic, or lord is good. Sure you may not agree or say that Jesus was just a good teacher, but that's ignoring several passages about his divinity and the role he played as an atoning sacrifice for sin. That's what's so important, but often times that's exactly what's left out when talking about Jesus. Also, it seems we have an immediate assumption to think that everything "supernatural" must be false. That's why people say that he was just a good teacher because if you don't accept the supernatural, than it won't make sense (but at the same time Jesus is treated very clearly as the divine son of God. I could give you a lot of verses).

I can accept that I made a faulty analogy. Though I do maintain disagreement that there is no room for the possibility that Jesus was just a good moral teacher, which is what the quote claims.

The problem with the supernatural is that it can not be proven, if it could then it would be natural. I have yet to see any evidence that the Bible is accurate at all in the claims of divine activity, even some of the events that should have some natural evidence are sorely lacking any. Maybe he was a lunatic, for his time he may have been seen that way by a lot of people, perhaps by the standards of the time he was a crazy guy. I'm not trying to say that I know with absolute certainty what/who he was, just that there is no reason not to expect that he may very well have been just an ordinary guy with an extraordinary worldview. There are plenty of cases in more recent history where people get displayed as these amazing people, but if you sift through all the things that their fans had to say about them and gather information from the source... They were just guys, some of them extremely flawed and horrible people. I'm not saying that Jesus had skeletons in his closet, it's totally possible that he was a straight up great guy, I just think that given enough time any story that involves a person doing something huge is going to get embellished. The time between the death of Jesus and all these stories being written down is huge, especially in a word-of-mouth society, it's a big game of telephone with someone writing down the version they think is the most accurate one. Or rather, multiple people writing down what they think is accurate. I don't think that the Bible is a complete work of fiction, but I do think that most of it is suspect, especially the direct quotes.

[VeganIncubus]

Neither, Mr Lewis.
Jesus, if he was real was probably a bit of an a*****e.
But I bet he also liked partying, doing pot and a**l with the apostles.

Quote:

no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[Arcoon Effox]

ratgirl34

I love C.S. Lewis as an author...

Why...?

Everything he wrote was allegorical fluff stuffed with Greek mythological beasties who didn't act like Greek mythological beasties.

[Lucky~9~Lives]

Arcoon Effox

ratgirl34

I love C.S. Lewis as an author...

Why...?

Everything he wrote was allegorical fluff stuffed with Greek mythological beasties who didn't act like Greek mythological beasties.

The Screwtape Letters.

[They Came to Kill GSK]

Lucky~9~Lives

Arcoon Effox

ratgirl34

I love C.S. Lewis as an author...

Why...?

Everything he wrote was allegorical fluff stuffed with Greek mythological beasties who didn't act like Greek mythological beasties.

The Screwtape Letters.

Actually read that eye roller last year. Screwtape and Wormwood were ******** scrubs in the demonic war against Heaven department.