Atheism - A Brief Description and subsequent Discussion

[Poon Tang Head]

Science would fit into what is called Empiricism, a philosophy which relies on direct observation, experience, sense perception and experimentation in order to obtain knowledge as well as confronting and explaining the natural world. Empiricism is also the rival of Rationalism.Classic examples of both camps include John Locke and Rene Descartes. Anyhow just thought this needed to be addressed since I didn't see anyone mention Empiricism.

[The Forbidden Soul]

Red Panda - the kings

I dont know if you want people to post yet, but I'm going to make a statement. We cannot prove love, but its there. We know how gravity works but we can't prove it. You can make diagrams and the whole nine yards but the bottom line is we will never "see" gravity. There are things we cannot prove. Period. That is were faith comes in, where you accept that life is not random. People need to find their purpose which is to worship God. But what people dont understand is you dont have to get on your knees to worship God. Worshiping God is do what you know is right, treating others with respect and showing love and compassion. Following the messengers of Gods footsteps. What I don't understand is why do Atheist believe in things that they themselves cannot prove but don't believe in the pure essence of all humanity, God. And no not some guy in a chair in the sky. We all know God wether we try to block him out or not. We are born spiritual beings and we will die spiritual beings and there will never be enough scientific evidence in the world to prove this. So people can accept it now or later. But if you choose later your slowing down your growth process.

I was not born believing in God, I was raised in a family that tried to get me to believe but hes just not there. If you believe in him the go for it, believe all you want. But I refuse to believe that my purpose in life is to worship an invisible man.
Btw we can and have scientifically proved love, a balance of chemicals, more specifically oxytocin.
More on that here.
We do know how gravity works and we have proved it, ill even prove it to you that gravity works, take a book and just hold it above the ground and let it go, BAM PROOF! Or if thats not good enough for you scientists have been able to SEE gravity in gravitational bends in the universe. (Black holes much?)
Yes there are things we havent proved, and who knows there will most likely be things we cannot prove, however its not a matter of me having faith in any God. Really what does God have to do with proving things? If anything he himself would be a paradox if all he was about was proof.
The things we cannot prove are the things that are needless to be explained.

" Worshiping God is do what you know is right, treating others with respect and showing love and compassion."
Did god treat others with respect, love, and compassion when he turned that woman into a pillar of salt for simply looking behind her? Did he show respect when he asked Judas Iscariot to kill his son and sent an angel to say "Haaaaayyy Judaaas, about your son...JK!"
(Im probably the only Atheist/Nihilist you will ever meet who actually read the bible. As a book. Not a way of life.)

"Following the messengers of Gods footsteps."
Thats funny, why would I follow them when they themselves wrote the bible in the 'name of God' thus not giving themselves any more credibility than any other nut job saying they do things in the name of god (Reverend Jones anyone?) Also, theyre the one who wrote the bible right? Not God? Then what do you know, the bible was MANMADE. Unless of course you have some incriminating evidence to prove otherwise?

"What I don't understand is why do Atheist believe in things that they themselves cannot prove but don't believe in the pure essence of all humanity, God."
What do I believe in that I cannot prove? The pure essence of humanity is not god. Humans are water, meat, and atoms. That is essentially, their true essence. Not invisible sky daddy.

One last picture before I go.


If you think im being hostile and mean I do say that that is only because you basically said all of humanity is a christian just like me and they just dont know it. When there are serious people out there who would say the opposite to you, just like me.
You cant prove heaven and I cant disprove heaven. Until then I wouldnt say its definite if I were in your position.

[Aleitheo the III]

Red Panda - the kings

We cannot prove love, but its there.

False, we can track brain patterns and hormones to see "love".

Quote:

We know how gravity works but we can't prove it.

False again.

Quote:

You can make diagrams and the whole nine yards but the bottom line is we will never "see" gravity.

So what, just because you can't see it with the naked eye, doesn't mean you can't see it in a dozen other ways.

Quote:

There are things we cannot prove. Period. That is were faith comes in,

Wrong. If you don't know the answer, have the guts to admit it rather than use blind faith and believe whatever makes you feel comfortable.

Quote:

People need to find their purpose which is to worship God.

No it isn't.

Quote:

What I don't understand is why do Atheist believe in things that they themselves cannot prove but don't believe in the pure essence of all humanity, God.

Atheism is merely a lack of a belief in something you can't prove, specifically a god.

Quote:

But if you choose later your slowing down your growth process.

Some say that you are supposed to leave behind imaginary friends in your childhood.

[Red Panda - the kings]

Aleitheo the III

Red Panda - the kings

We cannot prove love, but its there.

False, we can track brain patterns and hormones to see "love".
^
False. You don't "see" love, you "see" the effects of love. Hence, people can only express to you the effects of God.

Quote:

We know how gravity works but we can't prove it.

False again.

Quote:

You can make diagrams and the whole nine yards but the bottom line is we will never "see" gravity.

So what, just because you can't see it with the naked eye, doesn't mean you can't see it in a dozen other ways.
^
Same goes with seeing God. When I move closer to God and strive for perfection, life becomes easier and more understandable. You no longer need to get wrapped up in the physical realm for satisfaction.

Quote:

There are things we cannot prove. Period. That is were faith comes in,

Wrong. If you don't know the answer, have the guts to admit it rather than use blind faith and believe whatever makes you feel comfortable.
^
It's not blind faith. Your statements like these are invalid because if you truly accepted God into your life you would understand.

Quote:

People need to find their purpose which is to worship God.

No it isn't.
^
Yes it is. Worshiping God has many forms and example parenthood. Taking care of your child is a kind of worship. Having high morals and striving for perfection is worship. We weren't placed here for no reason, we need give back to the creator.

Quote:

What I don't understand is why do Atheist believe in things that they themselves cannot prove but don't believe in the pure essence of all humanity, God.

Atheism is merely a lack of a belief in something you can't prove, specifically a god.
^
No one can have concrete proof about God because he isn't concrete himself. The relationship with God is different with everyone. If you never try to accept gods grace then you won't have any proof. Until you try it you will never know. Can't express it in gaiaonline forums, the relationship with God does not have a mathematical equation.

Quote:

But if you choose later your slowing down your growth process.

Some say that you are supposed to leave behind imaginary friends in your childhood.
^
Didn't get the punt, but I'm glad you have a sense of humor.

[Fermionic]

Red Panda - the kings

Aleitheo the III

Red Panda - the kings

We cannot prove love, but its there.

False, we can track brain patterns and hormones to see "love".
^
False. You don't "see" love, you "see" the effects of love. Hence, people can only express to you the effects of God.

Quote:

We know how gravity works but we can't prove it.

False again.

Quote:

You can make diagrams and the whole nine yards but the bottom line is we will never "see" gravity.

So what, just because you can't see it with the naked eye, doesn't mean you can't see it in a dozen other ways.
^
Same goes with seeing God. When I move closer to God and strive for perfection, life becomes easier and more understandable. You no longer need to get wrapped up in the physical realm for satisfaction.

Quote:

There are things we cannot prove. Period. That is were faith comes in,

Wrong. If you don't know the answer, have the guts to admit it rather than use blind faith and believe whatever makes you feel comfortable.
^
It's not blind faith. Your statements like these are invalid because if you truly accepted God into your life you would understand.

Quote:

People need to find their purpose which is to worship God.

No it isn't.
^
Yes it is. Worshiping God has many forms and example parenthood. Taking care of your child is a kind of worship. Having high morals and striving for perfection is worship. We weren't placed here for no reason, we need give back to the creator.

Quote:

What I don't understand is why do Atheist believe in things that they themselves cannot prove but don't believe in the pure essence of all humanity, God.

Atheism is merely a lack of a belief in something you can't prove, specifically a god.
^
No one can have concrete proof about God because he isn't concrete himself. The relationship with God is different with everyone. If you never try to accept gods grace then you won't have any proof. Until you try it you will never know. Can't express it in gaiaonline forums, the relationship with God does not have a mathematical equation.

Quote:

But if you choose later your slowing down your growth process.

Some say that you are supposed to leave behind imaginary friends in your childhood.

^Didn't get the punt, but I'm glad you have a sense of humor.

rofl

[Song of the Century]

Red Panda - the kings

Same goes with seeing God. When I move closer to God and strive for perfection, life becomes easier and more understandable. You no longer need to get wrapped up in the physical realm for satisfaction.

Some people need not believe in a god for non-physical satisfaction. Some atheists are quite spiritual. Not to mention those who believe in other gods.

Quote:

It's not blind faith. Your statements like these are invalid because if you truly accepted God into your life you would understand.

You do not see it as blind due to your feelings regarding the matter. If a person who has not had an experience regarding a deity would try to believe in a god just because they were told it exists by a person, that would be blind faith.

Quote:

Yes it is. Worshiping God has many forms and example parenthood. Taking care of your child is a kind of worship. Having high morals and striving for perfection is worship. We weren't placed here for no reason, we need give back to the creator.

You need to review the meaning of "worship".

Quote:

No one can have concrete proof about God because he isn't concrete himself. The relationship with God is different with everyone. If you never try to accept gods grace then you won't have any proof. Until you try it you will never know. Can't express it in gaiaonline forums, the relationship with God does not have a mathematical equation.

The existence of a deity does not make sense to some people. Some people try their whole lives and fail to believe.

[Razten Mizuten]

Err, Red Panda, without wanting to be disrespectful in any way, your argument isn't exactly valid is it?
"Your statements are invalid cause you don't understand God"
That's like saying you can't ask a question because you don't know the answer. Also there is no rationality in your argument.
All you seem to do is go on about how great your relationship with God is, but you don't actually give any examples of how or why that a more rationally minded person could understand. Instead of barking on about how nice it is to have a relationship with God why don't you explain why you believe in what you do?

[Aleitheo the III]

Red Panda - the kings

False. You don't "see" love, you "see" the effects of love. Hence, people can only express to you the effects of God.

And why don't your god express himself then? Why do people have to do all the work to try to convince people he even exists in the first place?

Quote:

Same goes with seeing God. When I move closer to God and strive for perfection, life becomes easier and more understandable.

When you try harder with anything of course your life gets easier.

Quote:

It's not blind faith. Your statements like these are invalid because if you truly accepted God into your life you would understand.

Blind faith is believing without evidence, that is what you are suggesting, when we have no evidence, rely on faith. Also don't assume that because I don't believe what you do that I don't understand.

Quote:

Yes it is. Worshiping God has many forms and example parenthood. Taking care of your child is a kind of worship. Having high morals and striving for perfection is worship. We weren't placed here for no reason, we need give back to the creator.

You are stretching the definition of the word beyond what it actually means.

Quote:

No one can have concrete proof about God because he isn't concrete himself.

You don't say.

Quote:

The relationship with God is different with everyone. If you never try to accept gods grace then you won't have any proof.

Who said I have never tried? Who said that I didn't believe before and then gave it up when I started looking at it critically rather than only defensively?

Also use quotes properly in future, it makes reading them much easier.

[Red Panda - the kings]

Eh I don't think going back and forth is going to solve anything. I don't really see the point in responding, because everyone here seems to be too connected with Dunyah. I wish the best for you all and you can debate this matter with someone else smile

[Tuah]

Lately due to anxiety, I've been having occasional moments where my thoughts are completely re-arranged into something resembling religious thought.

For example, I understand the gist of how evolution works, and accept it as a reasonable explanation for how all of biology works and whatnot.
But during one of those times, I feel my 'understanding' shift into 'belief', wherein my entire understanding of the scientific process; all my logic, is thrown out the door. When it happens, I still side with evolution because I remember to, but feels dogmatic. Lucky I've managed to recognize this pattern even within an occurrence; I seriously hope it doesn't become permanent at some point.


All-in-all, I suppose this is to express how powerful emotion is, and how frail and weak the human mind is. In cases such as Red Panda, there is little hope for understanding or rationality at all.

[Xiam]

Incoming rant.

Tuah

Demonstrate that God is real, and I'll readily accept it.

Maybe I'm just completely messed up on this thinking, but I don't think that's really the point.

I know Red Panda started off the discussion with Love and Gravity and whatnot, but here's another experiment that might hit on a more personal level.

Demonstrate that you are real. Prove that you exist, as an individual consciousness. Prove that what you believe to be "you" is not just a collection of firing synapses within the nervous system.

Perhaps you're agreeing with this fact, though. Scientifically minded, you must be aware that you don't truly exist, that it's all within the brain. Perhaps you'll readily admit that you don't really exist, that you're just electrochemical patterns within the brain, itself simply cells produced by combinations of molecules, themselves simply atoms combined together. Perhaps you're fully aware that you're nothing but the remnants of a long-dead star, that just happened to combine in a shape that has somehow generated the delusion that it is an individual being, capable of intelligent thought.

You can know this, but it's particularly hard to actually feel it. You barely even have to think to move your hand, look at it, and know it to be your hand. You feel a location of existence, oriented around the body, isolated from the rest of the universe. You know that even if you separate an arm or a leg, what remains as "you" is, more or less, still in tact, so you know the body is not you, and if part of the brain is damaged, "you" may still be able to remain in tact.

It eventually becomes easier not to question what part of you is "you," and simply acknowledge that you exist. It becomes a given. Something taken for granted. And at least for much of humanity, the prospect of losing this self through death, or perhaps amnesia or dementia, is a terrifying thought and therefore ignored for the sake of the present moment in which the self continues to exist.

I hope I didn't lose you in my rant, but the point I'm trying to make is... like yourself, God is a mental construct. At least for some, it is the perceived "universal consciousness," perhaps that of the combined minds of sentient beings, each individual acting like a single neuron within a larger brain. Which is not to say Man is God. That would be arrogant, and a complete disregard for the entire model of the universe. But we're certainly a part of it.

This is all just my random thoughts, of course, and I'll probably change them as need be, but imagine for a moment that God loves you, not because it's some invisible parental figure in the sky, but because it is part of you (or rather, you're a part of it.) God doesn't intervene because it's you. You're pretty much asking yourself to intervene on your behalf, waiting and waiting and not acting because you think you'll come along to save yourself. Which is a bit weird.

The world doesn't run on miracles. Not every little thing can ever be perfect. And to say God doesn't exist simply because he didn't make your life amazing is pretty much forgetting the entire point of life. We're not here as privileged individuals or heroes around whom the entire universe revolves. We're just little temporary knots of consciousness in a great tangle of... stuff. And we have to take the bad with the good, no matter how fleeting the good, or how excruciatingly long the bad. To be honest, I think I've started to wonder if the Meaning of Life is humility.

I've thought a long while about "What if, like in that show Quantum Leap, we are all the same person, but living from birth to death before leaping into some other life, then forgetting everything we ever learned within that life, even that we ever had that life? What if we're all the same person, and even that that person is God?" It seems that many Eastern religions have similar views on the matter - basically, that every individual is God pretending he's not God, and all at the same time.

I don't know, it's something to think about, I guess. I'll stop chattering. Just know that, even with atheism, you can awaken a sort of spirituality about it all. When you look at the vastness, and the beauty, of the universe just as-is... you start to realize how little the problems of a single human really matter in the vast scheme of things. And yet, you're a part of it all. You're a piece of the universe. You and it are one. And then you start to think... "Maybe I do matter after all."

Which I guess goes against that humility thing I said before, but that's life for you. Everything is different, yet the same.

[Aleitheo the III]

Red Panda - the kings

Eh I don't think going back and forth is going to solve anything. I don't really see the point in responding, because everyone here seems to be too connected with Dunyah. I wish the best for you all and you can debate this matter with someone else smile

The point in you not responding is because you seem to have no evidence to prove your beliefs, insist on relying on faith and think that not being able to see gravity with the naked eye is somehow is point against it or room for the possibility of your god existing.

[Tuah]

Xiam

Incoming rant.

Tuah

Demonstrate that God is real, and I'll readily accept it.

Maybe I'm just completely messed up on this thinking, but I don't think that's really the point.

I know Red Panda started off the discussion with Love and Gravity and whatnot, but here's another experiment that might hit on a more personal level.

Demonstrate that you are real. Prove that you exist, as an individual consciousness. Prove that what you believe to be "you" is not just a collection of firing synapses within the nervous system.

Perhaps you're agreeing with this fact, though. Scientifically minded, you must be aware that you don't truly exist, that it's all within the brain. Perhaps you'll readily admit that you don't really exist, that you're just electrochemical patterns within the brain, itself simply cells produced by combinations of molecules, themselves simply atoms combined together. Perhaps you're fully aware that you're nothing but the remnants of a long-dead star, that just happened to combine in a shape that has somehow generated the delusion that it is an individual being, capable of intelligent thought.

You can know this, but it's particularly hard to actually feel it. You barely even have to think to move your hand, look at it, and know it to be your hand. You feel a location of existence, oriented around the body, isolated from the rest of the universe. You know that even if you separate an arm or a leg, what remains as "you" is, more or less, still in tact, so you know the body is not you, and if part of the brain is damaged, "you" may still be able to remain in tact.

It eventually becomes easier not to question what part of you is "you," and simply acknowledge that you exist. It becomes a given. Something taken for granted. And at least for much of humanity, the prospect of losing this self through death, or perhaps amnesia or dementia, is a terrifying thought and therefore ignored for the sake of the present moment in which the self continues to exist.

I hope I didn't lose you in my rant, but the point I'm trying to make is... like yourself, God is a mental construct. At least for some, it is the perceived "universal consciousness," perhaps that of the combined minds of sentient beings, each individual acting like a single neuron within a larger brain. Which is not to say Man is God. That would be arrogant, and a complete disregard for the entire model of the universe. But we're certainly a part of it.

This is all just my random thoughts, of course, and I'll probably change them as need be, but imagine for a moment that God loves you, not because it's some invisible parental figure in the sky, but because it is part of you (or rather, you're a part of it.) God doesn't intervene because it's you. You're pretty much asking yourself to intervene on your behalf, waiting and waiting and not acting because you think you'll come along to save yourself. Which is a bit weird.

The world doesn't run on miracles. Not every little thing can ever be perfect. And to say God doesn't exist simply because he didn't make your life amazing is pretty much forgetting the entire point of life. We're not here as privileged individuals or heroes around whom the entire universe revolves. We're just little temporary knots of consciousness in a great tangle of... stuff. And we have to take the bad with the good, no matter how fleeting the good, or how excruciatingly long the bad. To be honest, I think I've started to wonder if the Meaning of Life is humility.

I've thought a long while about "What if, like in that show Quantum Leap, we are all the same person, but living from birth to death before leaping into some other life, then forgetting everything we ever learned within that life, even that we ever had that life? What if we're all the same person, and even that that person is God?" It seems that many Eastern religions have similar views on the matter - basically, that every individual is God pretending he's not God, and all at the same time.

I don't know, it's something to think about, I guess. I'll stop chattering. Just know that, even with atheism, you can awaken a sort of spirituality about it all. When you look at the vastness, and the beauty, of the universe just as-is... you start to realize how little the problems of a single human really matter in the vast scheme of things. And yet, you're a part of it all. You're a piece of the universe. You and it are one. And then you start to think... "Maybe I do matter after all."

Which I guess goes against that humility thing I said before, but that's life for you. Everything is different, yet the same.

Eventually, with all the philosophy and metaphysical concepts accounted for, it devolves into a matter of practicality.

Example along similar lines of logic, it's perfectly fine to say that the world is flat, and as long as you can demonstrate it in a model, it is valid; it can be done. That said, such a model would be unnecessarily complicated and impractical.

Occam's Razor is nice to use.

[Xiam]

Tuah

Occam's Razor is nice to use.

But often not practical. razz

Sometimes, the simplest answer is the most unlikely answer.

How do magnets work?

Wikipedia.org, "Magnetism"

Magnetism, at its root, arises from two sources:

1. Electric currents or more generally, moving electric charges create magnetic fields (see Maxwell's Equations).
2. Many particles have nonzero "intrinsic" (or "spin" wink magnetic moments. Just as each particle, by its nature, has a certain mass and charge, each has a certain magnetic moment, possibly zero.

It was found hundreds of years ago that certain materials have a tendency to orient in a particular direction. For example ancient people knew that lodestone when suspended from a string is free to rotate. It comes to rest in a horizontal direction plane in the North-South direction.Ancient Mariners used lodestones for navigational purposes.

In magnetic materials, sources of magnetization are the electrons' orbital angular motion around the nucleus, and the electrons' intrinsic magnetic moment (see electron magnetic dipole moment). The other sources of magnetism are the nuclear magnetic moments of the nuclei in the material which are typically thousands of times smaller than the electrons' magnetic moments, so they are negligible in the context of the magnetization of materials. Nuclear magnetic moments are important in other contexts, particularly in nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI).

Ordinarily, the enormous number of electrons in a material are arranged such that their magnetic moments (both orbital and intrinsic) cancel out. This is due, to some extent, to electrons combining into pairs with opposite intrinsic magnetic moments as a result of the Pauli exclusion principle (see electron configuration), or combining into filled subshells with zero net orbital motion. In both cases, the electron arrangement is so as to exactly cancel the magnetic moments from each electron. Moreover, even when the electron configuration is such that there are unpaired electrons and/or non-filled subshells, it is often the case that the various electrons in the solid will contribute magnetic moments that point in different, random directions, so that the material will not be magnetic.

However, sometimes — either spontaneously, or owing to an applied external magnetic field — each of the electron magnetic moments will be, on average, lined up. Then the material can produce a net total magnetic field, which can potentially be quite strong.

The magnetic behavior of a material depends on its structure, particularly its electron configuration, for the reasons mentioned above, and also on the temperature. At high temperatures, random thermal motion makes it more difficult for the electrons to maintain alignment.

Insane Clown ********' miracles![/quote

[IronySandwich]

Xiam

Tuah

Occam's Razor is nice to use.

But often not practical. razz

Sometimes, the simplest answer is the most unlikely answer.

That's not how Occam's Razor works. You select the simplest answer from those with "equal predictive power". A more complex answer which better predicts a phenomenon is still considered superior.