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Haha Coffee
However the Qur'an is not a MIracle in the fact that it is just Poetry, it is a Miracle in the fact that it not only contains Scientific Information thousands of years ahead of it's time...


Such as?

There's a guy with a whole site dedicated to promulgating that the first 10 Hexagrams of the I-Ching match an advanced hydrological understanding of the water-cycle.

Haha Coffee
Akin to asking a modern writer to mimic the literary style of Shakespear(A feat which incidentally can be done with little effort by a student of his work)...


Source that such a feat can be done?

Haha Coffee
The Quranic mode of expression does not fall into the given categories of the Arabic language. This suggests that the inimitable mode of expression lies outside the productive capacity of the Arabic language. I freely admit that this only leads to a deduction that Author posses liteary and intelectual ability beyond that of any Living Arab.
However if it lies beyond the productive capacity of a human being, it must lie in the productive capacity of something with a greater capacity, this lends strong verification to the document’s other interal claim that it is a direct revelation from God.


That it lies beyond that of any living Arab does not mean it lies beyond the productive capacity of a human-being, though.
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
I'm unhappy I was ignored: What does Repentance mean to you?


I'm very sorry, I was trying to reply to everyone, I must have issed yours. Repentence is simply the wish to be forgiven for ones sins, and I mean to truely want to be forgiven. The want to change our ways and live as a better person. Jesus is forgiving always we just have to seek his forgivness.
Are there steps to repentance?
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Haha Coffee



Ok you claim it was memorized by over a thousand people before it was even written down, but where i your proof of this? You cannot prove this and thus this could very easily be nothing but a story. As for the one who ok'd it, it doesn't matter who they where, fact is they are still human and no title in the world will make that fact go away.


As for things that it predicted, the Bible has made many predictions as well that have also come true, in fact one of the biggest ones of all is coming true right now as we speak. It said that during the ends of days, nations would be fighting one another, and natural desaters would be abundent.

I'd like you to disprove any of the predictions of the Bible that didn't come true befoe you go on saying that all of the Qur'an's have.
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Derek Gibson
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I'm unhappy I was ignored: What does Repentance mean to you?


I'm very sorry, I was trying to reply to everyone, I must have issed yours. Repentence is simply the wish to be forgiven for ones sins, and I mean to truely want to be forgiven. The want to change our ways and live as a better person. Jesus is forgiving always we just have to seek his forgivness.
Are there steps to repentance?



Steps? Well, I'm not so sure there are really set seteps. Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior would be the first I suppose, then seeking repentence for what you've done wrong, and simply trying your best to live a Christ centered life. ( Meaning you try your best not to sin anymore. ) Humans aren't perfect, we don't simply poof into being better, it takes time and God understands that. He's happy just knowing that we try to be better and try not to do what we've done in the past.
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
I'm unhappy I was ignored: What does Repentance mean to you?


I'm very sorry, I was trying to reply to everyone, I must have issed yours. Repentence is simply the wish to be forgiven for ones sins, and I mean to truely want to be forgiven. The want to change our ways and live as a better person. Jesus is forgiving always we just have to seek his forgivness.
Are there steps to repentance?



Steps? Well, I'm not so sure there are really set seteps. Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior would be the first I suppose, then seeking repentence for what you've done wrong, and simply trying your best to live a Christ centered life. ( Meaning you try your best not to sin anymore. ) Humans aren't perfect, we don't simply poof into being better, it takes time and God understands that. He's happy just knowing that we try to be better and try not to do what we've done in the past.
Have you ever renounced and subsequently repented of anything?
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Derek Gibson
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Derek Gibson
I'm unhappy I was ignored: What does Repentance mean to you?


I'm very sorry, I was trying to reply to everyone, I must have issed yours. Repentence is simply the wish to be forgiven for ones sins, and I mean to truely want to be forgiven. The want to change our ways and live as a better person. Jesus is forgiving always we just have to seek his forgivness.
Are there steps to repentance?



Steps? Well, I'm not so sure there are really set seteps. Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior would be the first I suppose, then seeking repentence for what you've done wrong, and simply trying your best to live a Christ centered life. ( Meaning you try your best not to sin anymore. ) Humans aren't perfect, we don't simply poof into being better, it takes time and God understands that. He's happy just knowing that we try to be better and try not to do what we've done in the past.
Have you ever renounced and subsequently repented of anything?


Oh of course, many times. Like I said, just because we accept Jesus, it doesn't make us instently perfect. I've done my share of sins. I for a while struggled with Sexual immorality when I hit my 20's but have progressivly gotten much better since. It wasn't an instent thing, but with God's help, I have come a long way and hope to go much further. =)
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
I'm unhappy I was ignored: What does Repentance mean to you?


I'm very sorry, I was trying to reply to everyone, I must have issed yours. Repentence is simply the wish to be forgiven for ones sins, and I mean to truely want to be forgiven. The want to change our ways and live as a better person. Jesus is forgiving always we just have to seek his forgivness.
Are there steps to repentance?



Steps? Well, I'm not so sure there are really set seteps. Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior would be the first I suppose, then seeking repentence for what you've done wrong, and simply trying your best to live a Christ centered life. ( Meaning you try your best not to sin anymore. ) Humans aren't perfect, we don't simply poof into being better, it takes time and God understands that. He's happy just knowing that we try to be better and try not to do what we've done in the past.
Have you ever renounced and subsequently repented of anything?


Oh of course, many times. Like I said, just because we accept Jesus, it doesn't make us instently perfect. I've done my share of sins. I for a while struggled with Sexual immorality when I hit my 20's but have progressivly gotten much better since. It wasn't an instent thing, but with God's help, I have come a long way and hope to go much further. =)
Why do you repent specifically? What is your motivation I mean.
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Are there steps to repentance?



Steps? Well, I'm not so sure there are really set seteps. Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior would be the first I suppose, then seeking repentence for what you've done wrong, and simply trying your best to live a Christ centered life. ( Meaning you try your best not to sin anymore. ) Humans aren't perfect, we don't simply poof into being better, it takes time and God understands that. He's happy just knowing that we try to be better and try not to do what we've done in the past.
Have you ever renounced and subsequently repented of anything?


Oh of course, many times. Like I said, just because we accept Jesus, it doesn't make us instently perfect. I've done my share of sins. I for a while struggled with Sexual immorality when I hit my 20's but have progressivly gotten much better since. It wasn't an instent thing, but with God's help, I have come a long way and hope to go much further. =)
Why do you repent specifically? What is your motivation I mean.


Because I don't like doing what is wrong and I wish to make God and Jesus happy. God has given us so much and I feel that to make him happy is the least I can do to repay all that he has done for me. I may have gone through hard times myself but out of those hard times I have gained much more good and undertanding. Not to mention, doing what's right simply feels good, and it can make others happy as well.
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
Are there steps to repentance?



Steps? Well, I'm not so sure there are really set seteps. Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior would be the first I suppose, then seeking repentence for what you've done wrong, and simply trying your best to live a Christ centered life. ( Meaning you try your best not to sin anymore. ) Humans aren't perfect, we don't simply poof into being better, it takes time and God understands that. He's happy just knowing that we try to be better and try not to do what we've done in the past.
Have you ever renounced and subsequently repented of anything?


Oh of course, many times. Like I said, just because we accept Jesus, it doesn't make us instently perfect. I've done my share of sins. I for a while struggled with Sexual immorality when I hit my 20's but have progressivly gotten much better since. It wasn't an instent thing, but with God's help, I have come a long way and hope to go much further. =)
Why do you repent specifically? What is your motivation I mean.


Because I don't like doing what is wrong and I wish to make God and Jesus happy. God has given us so much and I feel that to make him happy is the least I can do to repay all that he has done for me. I may have gone through hard times myself but out of those hard times I have gained much more good and undertanding. Not to mention, doing what's right simply feels good, and it can make others happy as well.
Do you follow the NT only with what it incorporates from the OT or a combination of the NT and OT? I ask because this effects what is considered a sin and what you must repent of.
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Have you ever renounced and subsequently repented of anything?


Oh of course, many times. Like I said, just because we accept Jesus, it doesn't make us instently perfect. I've done my share of sins. I for a while struggled with Sexual immorality when I hit my 20's but have progressivly gotten much better since. It wasn't an instent thing, but with God's help, I have come a long way and hope to go much further. =)
Why do you repent specifically? What is your motivation I mean.


Because I don't like doing what is wrong and I wish to make God and Jesus happy. God has given us so much and I feel that to make him happy is the least I can do to repay all that he has done for me. I may have gone through hard times myself but out of those hard times I have gained much more good and undertanding. Not to mention, doing what's right simply feels good, and it can make others happy as well.
Do you follow the NT only with what it incorporates from the OT or a combination of the NT and OT? I ask because this effects what is considered a sin and what you must repent of.


While I do take into account that the old Testament does still have vaule, the fact that I am Chritian automatically makes my guide the New Testament. I'm not scolding you or anything, just letting you know lol. I don't discredit the old Testment out right but I do know that the Old Testament is not how Christian's conduct themselves today for the most part. But it doesn't mean that everything in the old testament is irrelvent, Such as the 10 commandments. Each of the 10 commandments should be how a person normally conducts them selves anyways. Don't murerd, don't steal, Don't bear false witness, Love God and don't take his name in vein or put other God's before him, ect. For a Christian these are already staple belifes that we follow anyways, but Jesus then added onto it that we are to not only Love God with all our heart Soul and mind, but also love others as yourself. Even love your enemies. Because even if someone hates you, you shouldn't hate them, we need to care about them and their soul because Jesus and God do.
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
Derek Gibson
Have you ever renounced and subsequently repented of anything?


Oh of course, many times. Like I said, just because we accept Jesus, it doesn't make us instently perfect. I've done my share of sins. I for a while struggled with Sexual immorality when I hit my 20's but have progressivly gotten much better since. It wasn't an instent thing, but with God's help, I have come a long way and hope to go much further. =)
Why do you repent specifically? What is your motivation I mean.


Because I don't like doing what is wrong and I wish to make God and Jesus happy. God has given us so much and I feel that to make him happy is the least I can do to repay all that he has done for me. I may have gone through hard times myself but out of those hard times I have gained much more good and undertanding. Not to mention, doing what's right simply feels good, and it can make others happy as well.
Do you follow the NT only with what it incorporates from the OT or a combination of the NT and OT? I ask because this effects what is considered a sin and what you must repent of.


While I do take into account that the old Testament does still have vaule, the fact that I am Chritian automatically makes my guide the New Testament. I'm not scolding you or anything, just letting you know lol. I don't discredit the old Testment out right but I do know that the Old Testament is not how Christian's conduct themselves today for the most part. But it doesn't mean that everything in the old testament is irrelvent, Such as the 10 commandments. Each of the 10 commandments should be how a person normally conducts them selves anyways. Don't murerd, don't steal, Don't bear false witness, Love God and don't take his name in vein or put other God's before him, ect. For a Christian these are already staple belifes that we follow anyways, but Jesus then added onto it that we are to not only Love God with all our heart Soul and mind, but also love others as yourself. Even love your enemies. Because even if someone hates you, you shouldn't hate them, we need to care about them and their soul because Jesus and God do.


Do you feel that you are ever restrained from activity due to it being considered a sin?
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Why do you repent specifically? What is your motivation I mean.


Because I don't like doing what is wrong and I wish to make God and Jesus happy. God has given us so much and I feel that to make him happy is the least I can do to repay all that he has done for me. I may have gone through hard times myself but out of those hard times I have gained much more good and undertanding. Not to mention, doing what's right simply feels good, and it can make others happy as well.
Do you follow the NT only with what it incorporates from the OT or a combination of the NT and OT? I ask because this effects what is considered a sin and what you must repent of.


While I do take into account that the old Testament does still have vaule, the fact that I am Chritian automatically makes my guide the New Testament. I'm not scolding you or anything, just letting you know lol. I don't discredit the old Testment out right but I do know that the Old Testament is not how Christian's conduct themselves today for the most part. But it doesn't mean that everything in the old testament is irrelvent, Such as the 10 commandments. Each of the 10 commandments should be how a person normally conducts them selves anyways. Don't murerd, don't steal, Don't bear false witness, Love God and don't take his name in vein or put other God's before him, ect. For a Christian these are already staple belifes that we follow anyways, but Jesus then added onto it that we are to not only Love God with all our heart Soul and mind, but also love others as yourself. Even love your enemies. Because even if someone hates you, you shouldn't hate them, we need to care about them and their soul because Jesus and God do.


Do you feel that you are ever restrained from activity due to it being considered a sin?


Yes actually. There are some activties I steer clear of. For instense, I steer clear of M rated games that have large Sexual content and the same goes for movies. Ialso steer clear of shos o anything that directly makes fun of God or Jesus. Or that promote other Gods

I also steer clear o anything with eccesive cussing but that's more of a personal thing of mine I think.
The Real Mikuo Hatsune
It said that during the ends of days, nations would be fighting one another, and natural desaters would be abundent.


Nations have always fought one another, and natural disasters are no more abundant than previously.
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Ok you claim it was memorized by over a thousand people before it was even written down, but where i your proof of this?
Pick up a History Book on 5th-9th century Arabia.

Im not going to bother to source you accepted history, anymore than I would expect you to source me that Napoleon lost at Waterloo.

Quote:
You cannot prove this and thus this could very easily be nothing but a story. As for the one who ok'd it, it doesn't matter who they where, fact is they are still human and no title in the world will make that fact go away.

By this argument, you have just claimed the Bible is faillible, man made drivel.

Congratulations.


Quote:
As for things that it predicted, the Bible has made many predictions as well that have also come true, in fact one of the biggest ones of all is coming true right now as we speak. It said that during the ends of days, nations would be fighting one another, and natural desaters would be abundent.

Actually, no Biblical Prophecy (except the ones written after the event, such as the splitting of the two kingdoms) has come true.

There are many that failed to come true.

You say "During the end days there will be nations fighting each other and natural disasters will be abundent".

This current century is actually the most peaceful in the past thousand years, there are "less" wars going on now, than almost ever before.

Same for Natural Disasters, they are no more frequent than any other point in recorded history, and we havent had many major ones recently at all.

Not compared to the freqneucy AND scale of ones of previous Generations.

You forget that St Paull, thought the world was going to end in his lifetime.


Quote:
I'd like you to disprove any of the predictions of the Bible that didn't come true befoe you go on saying that all of the Qur'an's have.


Im so , so, SO happy you asked me to do this.

The NT brings us prophecies of which it claims that they are fulfilled by JC.

Let us take a closer look at those. The first one we find in Matthew 1:21; “she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).”

This text can be found in Isaiah 7:14; “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.” Revised Standard Version.

We see here that here in Isaiah is not spoken about a virgin, but about a young woman. It is of course much more normal that a young woman gets pregnant than that a virgin gets pregnant. But Isaiah clearly speaks about a young woman, and not a virgin. Some translations say, for instance the King James, say in Isaiah 7:14 “virgin”, and not “young woman”, but that is a wrong translation. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 7:14 is “almah”, and that means “young woman”, and not virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is “betulah”. That word is used for instance when the Torah speaks about Rebecca in Gen 24:16; “The maiden was very fair to look upon, a virgin, whom no man had known.”

This fact is recognized by many Christian Bible translators. For instance the New English Bible, the Good News Bible, the Revised Standard Version, and the New World Translation have translated this in the right way, and not as “virgin”.

So the NT has been misquoting the Hebrew Bible.
Nowhere in the Tanach (Tanach is compilation of the first letters of the three parts of the Hebrew Bible, Torah, Nevi'iem, (prophets), and Chetuviem, (writings)) is a virgin to be found who would get pregnant. In fact, NOWHERE in the Tanach does a virgin bear a child. This concept is only to found in pagan mythology.
And when we look at the whole chapter of Isaiah 7, then we see that it doesn't speak about the messiah. It speaks about God giving a sign to Achaz, that he will have peace in his days.
This chapter has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.
What the NT does is ripping a text out of context, mistranslating it, and presenting it as a messianic prophecy.


Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Matt 2:14 “And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."”

Here a text from Hosea 11: 1 which says: “out of Egypt I called my son” is applied to the messiah.
But let's take a look WHO is the “son of God” in the Tanach: “And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my first-born son, and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me"; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.'" Exodus 4:22
This is clear language. And also in Hosea 11:1 it CLEARLY speaks about Israel, which has been led out of slavery from Egypt by God. See here Hosea 11:1 complete, and not a part ripped out of context: “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.”
Just read the whole chapter of Hosea 11 and see that it all speaks about Israel, and not about the messiah.
What the NT is doing here once again is ripping a piece of text out of context which has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and then present it as a “messianic prophecy”. Something it obviously is not.

Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Matt 2:16-18 “Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: “A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."”
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about a slaughter of children, taking place in the days of the messiah.

And now read what is really happening there: Jeremiah 31: “10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the coastlands afar off; say, 'He who scattered Israel will gather him, and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him. 12 They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. 13 Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. 14 I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, says the LORD." 15 Thus says the LORD: "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not." 16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country.”

As everyone can see, this speaks about Israel which went into exile, and of whom God says that they will return from the exile back to the land of Israel.

Another text which has no bearing on the slaughter of children in the days of messiah which is ripped out of context by the NT and is presented to us as a “messianic prophecy”.

Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Matthew 2:23 “And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."”

This prophecy won't take up much time, because you can go through the whole Hebrew Bible, and NOWHERE is it written that the messiah should live in Nazareth, or the he should be called “Nazarene”.

So the NT is also giving non-existing prophecies.



Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Matthew 26:14-15 "Then one of the twelve, who is called Judas Iscariot, having gone unto the chief priests, said, `What are ye willing to give me, and I will deliver him up to you?' and they weighed out to him thirty silverlings,"

Matthew 27: "3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

This OT text can by found in Zech 11:12 "I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter."

As we see here in Zechariah, there is no messiah to be seen who is being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. And no potters fields are being bought in Zechariah.
As a matter of fact, in all of this text in Zechariah is no potter to be found.

No potter to be found?

No potter to be found.

The above translation of Zechariah 11:12 is from the New International Version. It says that Zechariah threw the money to the "potter" in the Temple.
In the Hebrew is written "yotseer". That can mean "potter", but it can also mean "treasurer".
In the Temple weren't any potters sitting around. Who was sitting there, was a treasurer, who accepted the gifts for the Temple.
So Zechariah doesn't speak about a potter, but about a treasurer.
This fact is recognized by the Revised Standard Version, it says here "treasurer" in stead of "potter".
Also Youngs Literal Translation says here "treasurer", and also the Contemporary English Version says here "treasury".
The Stone Edition of the Tanach says: "HASHEM (literally: "The Name) said to me, "Throw it to the treasurer of the Precious Stronghold which I have divested from them". So I threw it into the Temple of HASHEM, to the treasurer."
Also the New World Translation of the Watch Tower Society gives a good translation: At that, J-e-h-o-v-a-h said to me: “Throw it to the treasury—the majestic value with which I have been valued from their standpoint.” Accordingly I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw it into the treasury at the house of J-e-h-o-v-a-h."

So what we see here, is that there is no "potter" in Zechariah, and that the whole NT story about buying land of a potter has no bearing whatsoever on the text in Zechariah.

Also we have here a clear proof that the NT text is so orchestrated that it looks as if it fulfills OT prophecies. But because of the fact that they make here another mistake in the translation, the set up is clear to see for everybody.

And there is more. Look again to Matthew 27 and see what the Christians won't tell you: "9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

So here we see that Matthew claims that this text comes from Jeremiah, when in truth, it comes from Zechariah.
Another slip up of the New Testament which is supposedly divinely inspired.

Matthew was not capable of naming the right prophet.
And this is supposed to "proof" that JC is the messiah.

Well, with friends like Matthew, you don't need enemies anymore.


Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:

Luke 24: “44 Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

But the problem is: NOWHERE in the Tanach is it written that “the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

Another NT quote of OT prophecy which is nowhere to be found in the OT.


Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an a**, and upon a colt the foal of an a**. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.



(Yes this was a Copy and Paste...however, it's MY copy and paste so Im not just lifting a random wall of text, im lifting a relevent wall of text I made a while ago)
Fates Oblivion's avatar

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I think this has gone on long enough, the very fact that you are relying on information written down by other people condtradits your own sayings. You kept saying that the Qur'an is real because people memorized and have written it down. Thus you are trust what other people say. i'm sorry but no matter how uch you try to disprove the Bible, you cannot because the fact is, you were not there. Yes I cannot prove it either because I was not there bu in the end all this "knowledge" you have is nothing but what other humans claim to have found.

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