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Sparkly Shapeshifter

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This is mostly aimed towards Christians, since this hypothetical situation involves Satan/Lucifer in some form to exist (I don't believe he exists, but let's pretend). This is also aimed at Christians who are against abortions.

However, feel free to provide your own thoughts regardless of your beliefs.

I remember an episode of Masters of Horror where a young woman was pregnant with Satan's baby, or at least, some sort of demon's baby, and the demon was pressuring a fanatic version of a pro-life man to do crazy murderous and evil s**t to stop the abortion.

Now, assuming Satan is real, assuming you are a woman, and you found yourself pregnant with Satan's baby (and not pregnant of your own free will), would you abort it? Would you try to give birth to the thing? What would you do?

Personally ... I'd probably have no idea if whatever impregnated me was Satan or not, but if I thought I was pregnant because of rape, I'd probably hurry to an abortion clinic. No promises, though.

Shameless Mystic

It'd probably result in the Charlie Kelley situation.

Tipsy Dabbler

Nope, still wouldn't abort it. Your parents have nothing to do with your value as a person, even if your father was satan himself. Which, coincidentally, would most likely be impossible, as I can't see a spirit producing semen : P

Heads up! The following is a fairly long rant about why I (being a Christian) disagree with abortion, as I assume that was the underlying cause for the creation of this thread. If, on the other hand, you simply wanted a direct answer to the 'satan's child' question and nothing more, you'd do yourself well to pretend the rest of this post doesn't exist xD Also, this is the first time I've had the opportunity to discuss abortion directly with someone who (presumably) agrees with it, so forgive me if I'm not 100% familiar with all the reasoning behind your stances as of yet.

Christians view abortion as an act of murder, equivalent to the slaughtering of a newborn child. There really isn't much difference; they're both incapable of defending themselves, but they're still both heading towards becoming our intellectual, spiritual, political and philosophical equals.

Do you consider the murder of child less 'wrong' than the murder of an adult? I mean, you should, if you believe in abortion; adults have more to offer to society, they're (generally) more intelligent, and they can attest to the rights that they possess. Children, on the other hand, are impressionable; the intelligence they develop is dependent upon the information they're shown, and their beliefs aren't their own, but that of their parents and other authority figures. If you so desired, you could even convince a young child you were raising that he or she doesn't have any rights or value; that, because of their age and immaturity, they're sub-human.

So why do we view crimes against children as being so terrible? As an example, the stigma against molesting a child is generally far greater than that of adult rape. Why is that? Sure, children lack the ability to defend themselves, but they also have minimal to offer to our society at their current age. Even though they may eventually grow into an adult who benefits society and has their own family and friends, right now, they're weak and insignificant.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you can't have both abortion and a moral disagreement with child abuse. They're both the selfish act of taking from one that can't defend his/herself for your own gain.

I don't care how much childbirth would inconvenience a mother, she has the moral (and what should be legal) obligation to go through with it. Taking the life of another, regardless of how young or seemingly insignificant, for your own gain is the ultimate act of selfishness. Just because, when they are in extremely early stages of development, they cannot feel emotion like us, does not make it justifiable. You're still stealing from them an opportunity out of your own selfishness. They eventually would feel emotion, and grow as people just like we have.

tl;dr, a parent's situational convenience is never more valuable than the life of a fellow human, even if it's still in development.
Red Wight
Christians view abortion as an act of murder, equivalent to the slaughtering of a newborn child.


Not all of them.
- ninja

Red Wight
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you can't have both abortion and a moral disagreement with child abuse. They're both the selfish act of taking from one that can't defend his/herself for your own gain.


Only the former necessarily removes one who is taking from me for their own gain - if abortion is the only way to do that, and it is denied to me, I effectively can't defend myself from that one taking from me for their own gain. Unless you're arguing I chose not to defend myself when I didn't take care to not be in any situation that could potentially get me pregnant, I guess.
- dramallama

Tipsy Dabbler

Lucky~9~Lives

Not all of them.


Touche. Most Christians disagree with abortion, though given the Bible's emphasis on God's love for children, I have a hard time understanding why there are some that don't.

Lucky~9~Lives

Only the former necessarily removes one who is taking from me for their own gain - if abortion is the only way to do that, and it is denied to me, I effectively can't defend myself from that one taking from me for their own gain. Unless you're arguing I chose not to defend myself when I didn't take care to not be in any situation that could potentially get me pregnant, I guess.
- dramallama


It's the responsibility of those who have power to use it to benefit those whom they have power over. The way of thinking you've just demonstrated to me is the primary driving power behind dictatorships, political corruption, blackmail, and murder. While very different in many ways, the one thing all these issues have in common with abortion is that they're caused by people with power exercising the 'it's either you or me' philosophy. I understand that you likely don't believe in a higher meaning or divine moral standard, so I'm not going to try to argue with you on those grounds. But don't you think that a society that practices and openly accepts the 'dog eat dog' mentality is doomed to eventually fail? Where, then, does the boundary between us and ordinary animals come into play?

That aside, there are still other reasons not to let your argument stand as reason for legal abortions. For one, it's not the baby's fault that it's in this predicament; it's the mother and father's. So yes, I suppose that in one regard, you're correct when you said; "Unless you're arguing I chose not to defend myself when I didn't take care to not be in any situation that could potentially get me pregnant". Actions have consequences, yet our current society is obsessed with the idea of doing whatever the hell we want and then desperately trying to avoid the results. In a sickening turn of events, this fairly regularly involves people getting away with their actions by pushing the consequences onto somebody else. While for courts and politics this often involves pinning the blame on innocent parties, abortion expresses this through the deletion of 'the problem', without regard for the problem-causers. Sexual encounters, regardless of their intentions, can cause pregnancy. It doesn't matter if you wanted it or not; you're now dealing with not only the two sexually involved partners, but a new, third party.

And that leads into my third argument; the child has a lot more to lose than both mother and father combined. Yes, the mother needs to go through 9 months of carrying the baby. Yes, she needs to go through the pain of childbirth. Yes, the father needs to pay child care if the mother opts not to put it up for adoption. And yes, there will be many social and psychological repercussions for all involved. But really, is less than a year of discomfort really comparable to the entire lifetime the child is missing out on? If at least one side is going to lose something anyways, does it not make sense to move in favour of the side that has the most to lose, given the circumstances?
Red Wight
Most Christians disagree with abortion, though given the Bible's emphasis on God's love for children, I have a hard time understanding why there are some that don't.


Not all of them:

""Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
- 1 Samuel 15:2-3

Red Wight
But don't you think that a society that practices and openly accepts the 'dog eat dog' mentality is doomed to eventually fail?


No more than a society that practices and openly accepts the 'eat me' mentality.
- ninja

Red Wight
That aside, there are still other reasons not to let your argument stand as reason for legal abortions. For one, it's not the baby's fault that it's in this predicament; it's the mother and father's. So yes, I suppose that in one regard, you're correct when you said; "Unless you're arguing I chose not to defend myself when I didn't take care to not be in any situation that could potentially get me pregnant". Actions have consequences, yet our current society is obsessed with the idea of doing whatever the hell we want and then desperately trying to avoid the results.


If being in a situation constitutes an action, the fetus is equally culpable for being in someone else's womb.

Red Wight
And that leads into my third argument; the child has a lot more to lose than both mother and father combined. Yes, the mother needs to go through 9 months of carrying the baby. Yes, she needs to go through the pain of childbirth. Yes, the father needs to pay child care if the mother opts not to put it up for adoption. And yes, there will be many social and psychological repercussions for all involved. But really, is less than a year of discomfort really comparable to the entire lifetime the child is missing out on?


Is dying in childbirth and orphaning three children really comparable to dying painlessly?

Tipsy Dabbler

Lucky~9~Lives

""Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"
- 1 Samuel 15:2-3


That's an interesting passage to mention, because child murder was deeply rooted into the Amalekite culture (“…in worshipping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.” (Deuteronomy 12.31)). God commanded to Isrealites to completely remove any and all remnants of their culture from the world at the time to prevent it from corrupting and influencing the surrounding cultures.

As for the specific command to kill infants; that was justified because God is just. I know that seems like an incredibly brain-washed, 'typical' Christian answer, but believing in the kind of omnipotent, omniscient and eternal God that Christians do naturally implies that it's so (this is also true of other religions that believe in God(s) of similar descriptions).

However, that isn't to say that this judgement is beyond our understanding; a look at Genesis 18:20-33 shows that God would be willing to spare the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah had there been any righteous people living there (it's fairly safe to assume the reason Abraham didn't count down below 10 was because he had finally gotten the point). This, and the understanding that God knows what people will do before they are even born, implies that God knew not even a single one of the Amalekites was redeemable. Not even the infants, as God knew they would grow up to be like their fathers and mothers regardless of the culture they were in. In fact, if this is true, killing them may have been an act of mercy rather than judgement, as most Christians believe that babies and young children are automatically forgiven due to their lack of independent thought and innocent trustfulness (as demonstrated in Matthew 18:3: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." ).

Lucky~9~Lives
No more than a society that practices and openly accepts the 'eat me' mentality.
- ninja


I disagree. A society based on individual survival and personal benefits would be even more rife with betrayal, abuse, deception and disrespect than the even society we have now. And when such constant evil abounds, revenge is sure to follow suite, in turn causing more deaths and more suffering.

Besides, would you rather live in a world where everyone only cares about themselves, or in a world where people care about others as much as themselves? Doesn't mean you need to be a masochist; just care enough to make truly unbiased decisions (which abortion never is).

Lucky~9~Lives

If being in a situation constitutes an action, the fetus is equally culpable for being in someone else's womb.


I never said that being in a situation constitutes an action. I said that actions cause situations. In the vast majority of pregnancies, both the mother and the father were willing sexual partners. They caused the situation of an unwanted pregnancy.

Lucky~9~Lives

Is dying in childbirth and orphaning three children really comparable to dying painlessly?


15 in every 10,000 mothers die in childbirth in the US. That's 0.15%. While still far too high a number, the odds of you dying due to accidental causes are higher. Does that mean you should never leave your house?

Zealot

Red Wight
Christians view abortion as an act of murder, equivalent to the slaughtering of a newborn child. There really isn't much difference; they're both incapable of defending themselves, but they're still both heading towards becoming our intellectual, spiritual, political and philosophical equals.
So I guess you're not a fan of wanking either.
Red Wight
In fact, if this is true, killing them may have been an act of mercy rather than judgement, as most Christians believe that babies and young children are automatically forgiven due to their lack of independent thought and innocent trustfulness (as demonstrated in Matthew 18:3: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." ).


Which leads to the conclusion that killing every baby is an act of mercy.

Red Wight
Lucky~9~Lives
No more than a society that practices and openly accepts the 'eat me' mentality.
- ninja


I disagree. A society based on individual survival and personal benefits would be even more rife with betrayal, abuse, deception and disrespect than the even society we have now.


The society we have now is not one that practices and openly accepts the 'eat me' mentality.

Red Wight
I never said that being in a situation constitutes an action.


Then you haven't been addressing my point that some pregnancies are a result of being in a situation (rather than of any conscious decision of the mother).

Red Wight
Lucky~9~Lives
Is dying in childbirth and orphaning three children really comparable to dying painlessly?


15 in every 10,000 mothers die in childbirth in the US. That's 0.15%. While still far too high a number, the odds of you dying due to accidental causes are higher. Does that mean you should never leave your house?


It means I should have some input in whether I leave my house or not.
Dieu des hommes
Red Wight
Christians view abortion as an act of murder, equivalent to the slaughtering of a newborn child. There really isn't much difference; they're both incapable of defending themselves, but they're still both heading towards becoming our intellectual, spiritual, political and philosophical equals.
So I guess you're not a fan of wanking either.


Out of the two, which would you wank?
- emotion_awesome

Tipsy Dabbler

Lucky~9~Lives


I can tell we've reached an impasse. We could continue tossing forth arguments and counter-arguments until Christmas, but I don't think it's going to do either of us any further good.

I believe that abortion should be an issue of a respect for life. You believe that abortion should be about the rights of those who can voice them. These are fundamental beliefs, and I don't think that either of us is going to change them solely due to a discussion on internet forums.

Thanks for the debate! It was actually fairly thought-provoking, even though you never wrote more than a sentence or two in response to my paragraphs xD Not that you really needed it...Damn, looking back, I really need to learn how to condense and make these things more readable @_@

Floppy Member

Red Wight

I believe that abortion should be an issue of a respect for life.


You must weep copious amounts of tears every time you wash your hands after using the toilet. Those poor, innocent bacteria.

Sparkly Shapeshifter

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Red Wight
Nope, still wouldn't abort it. Your parents have nothing to do with your value as a person, even if your father was satan himself. Which, coincidentally, would most likely be impossible, as I can't see a spirit producing semen : P

Heads up! The following is a fairly long rant about why I (being a Christian) disagree with abortion, as I assume that was the underlying cause for the creation of this thread. If, on the other hand, you simply wanted a direct answer to the 'satan's child' question and nothing more, you'd do yourself well to pretend the rest of this post doesn't exist xD Also, this is the first time I've had the opportunity to discuss abortion directly with someone who (presumably) agrees with it, so forgive me if I'm not 100% familiar with all the reasoning behind your stances as of yet.

Christians view abortion as an act of murder, equivalent to the slaughtering of a newborn child. There really isn't much difference; they're both incapable of defending themselves, but they're still both heading towards becoming our intellectual, spiritual, political and philosophical equals.

Do you consider the murder of child less 'wrong' than the murder of an adult? I mean, you should, if you believe in abortion; adults have more to offer to society, they're (generally) more intelligent, and they can attest to the rights that they possess. Children, on the other hand, are impressionable; the intelligence they develop is dependent upon the information they're shown, and their beliefs aren't their own, but that of their parents and other authority figures. If you so desired, you could even convince a young child you were raising that he or she doesn't have any rights or value; that, because of their age and immaturity, they're sub-human.

So why do we view crimes against children as being so terrible? As an example, the stigma against molesting a child is generally far greater than that of adult rape. Why is that? Sure, children lack the ability to defend themselves, but they also have minimal to offer to our society at their current age. Even though they may eventually grow into an adult who benefits society and has their own family and friends, right now, they're weak and insignificant.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you can't have both abortion and a moral disagreement with child abuse. They're both the selfish act of taking from one that can't defend his/herself for your own gain.

I don't care how much childbirth would inconvenience a mother, she has the moral (and what should be legal) obligation to go through with it. Taking the life of another, regardless of how young or seemingly insignificant, for your own gain is the ultimate act of selfishness. Just because, when they are in extremely early stages of development, they cannot feel emotion like us, does not make it justifiable. You're still stealing from them an opportunity out of your own selfishness. They eventually would feel emotion, and grow as people just like we have.

tl;dr, a parent's situational convenience is never more valuable than the life of a fellow human, even if it's still in development.


So ... what you're saying is that if Satan himself raped you and got you pregnant, you'd still try to give birth the the offspring?

Tipsy Dabbler

The Legendary Guest

You must weep copious amounts of tears every time you wash your hands after using the toilet. Those poor, innocent bacteria.


Bacteria never develop into thinking, feeling beings. Fetuses do. Of course, if you don't think human life has any real value, that argument falls apart. Along with society and the entire human psyche.

If it makes you happy, I'll reword my statement; I believe that abortion should be an issue of a respect for human life.

Blood Valkyrie
So ... what you're saying is that if Satan himself raped you and got you pregnant, you'd still try to give birth the the offspring?


Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. The origin of the human life in question doesn't determine whether or not it has value.

Let me ask you a quick counter-question; do you believe that a person's value as an individual is based entirely upon his or her parents? For example; if Hitler himself had a living infant child, would the allies have been justified in torturing, starving, and killing it to pay back the evil his father had committed? Would ending it's life be acceptable, even though it had not yet willfully supported the murder of the jews? Would the argument that "he's Hitler's son; there's no way he's going to benefit the rest of society" be a good reason to place a bullet in his skull?

**EDIT** Consider this to be my last post here. I don't think that any of us is getting anything out of this discussion; on the contrary, I'm finding it harder and harder not to get involved on an emotional level, and I really don't need the added stress. Feel free to continue the discussion among yourselves, but it would be greatly appreciated if you could refrain from quoting me any further. And if you do, be wary that I likely won't reply.

Thanks for understanding!

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