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A friend and I were discussing the other night how feminists have ruined the men of our generation. We agreed that while women have risen up and changed their views, mentality, and their desirable roles in our culture (moving away from the home and being more prominent in the workplace), that men haven't really followed suit so much on the paradigm. We've found that it's given a lot of guys an excuse to be lazy, underachievers, wanting to sit around and play video games and coast along in life riding on their girlfriends/wives' incomes.


The problem is while women are allowed to break traditional gender roles men aren't. We had this dicussion in a lot of my Early Childcare classes how we don't see a lot of men in that field because society thinks it wrong for men to care for small children and there's little to no help for single dads in non-metro cities. So yeah let's not blame women but society as a whole for this. Without the feminists of yesterday please believe you wouldn't have the right to express yourself as such or much else. Feminism isn't a dirty game.


Part of the reason you don't see too many men working with young children is society now feels uncomfortable with a grown man near small children he's not related to. ***** often comes to people's mind here despite the fact most child molestation happens within the family.
I work at a daycare, and there are 9 of us teachers there. All women, and while it does help kill my hormones (I worked at a fast food joint before then, and there was 6 of us...5 boys and me...needless to say, I didn't get my work done very fast). But I wish we had some male influence during the day for our boys. sad
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Mayor Gravity
What do you mean by "Just female"?

and, I feel stupid but what's MRA?

Like, I'm female, but my experience is going to be different from that of other females because there are more 'ims than just sexism & people don't experience them one at a time. The experience of a white, upper-class, heterosexual woman will be different from what a queer, working-class woman of color experiences (even if they live in the same place), to use a really obvious example. There are more subtle ways that aspects of one's role/perceived role in society can affect can intersect and affect one's experience.

So I preemptively disclaim when I think there might be people whose main experience with feminism is straw feminists from TV.

MRA is short for Mens Rights Activist. The words alone aren't terribly sinister, but those people who self-identify with the term tend to be anti-feminist, misogynistic and pretty well convinced that women/society has it out for (cisgendered, white) men. I've noticed a fair amount of homophobic attitudes as well, which isn't surprising anywhere you get misogyny.

So I was kvetching because that is a group that is the loudest and most serious about hearing "I'm a feminist" as "anyone who has a problem for a reason other than being female can go piss up a rope!" And, based on the Black History Month forum, I fully expect some to come rolling in to complain about mythical organized evil bitches who steal men's sperm for child support money.
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CleoSombra

I think you raise some really good points about intersectionality. Nobody is just female - but unfortunately, in many feminist discourse, it often relates only to white middle class heterosexual female feminists. The white groups don't understand the blacks, the straights distance themselves from the lesbians, the middle class doesn't understand the plight of the working class. Audre Lorde writer on this.

This isn't an issue unique to feminism, though, but of every movement out there. People always end up overlooking or rejecting the issues that they themselves don't experience. I just recently read an article (~1980) by Anna Nietogomez on Chicana feminism, and she was talking about how the Chicano movement often boils down to the Chicano men's movement because a main focus is in fighting for economic power for men . . . but not for women.

Regarding the men's rights activism . . . I feel conflicted.

On the one hand, I don't want to do what society did to the original women's rights movement, which was to label it radical, man-hating, and deviant. I recognize that men have unique issues facing them and unique inequalities - there's a real problem with boys doing worse and school and more women graduating from college. There's a real problem with women being favored in child custody battles and men paying a disproportionate amount of alimony.

At the same time, what I have read about and by the MRA does not make me comfortable and I don't agree with many of its tenets. Much of the discourse seems to be rejecting not only feminism, but men's own liberation - a rejection of homosexuality, feminine qualities in men, etc.

From what I read on some MRA forums, a lot of what I read is about how awful women are and awful things they've done. I wasn't around for when second-wave feminism was taking off, so I don't know what individual feminists were saying, but I've yet to read any article by a major feminist writer that has torn down men.

Yeah, intersectionality is tough, especially since the more privileged in any movement tend to want a cookie and gold star for even being involved/take any discussion of improving inclusion and listening to the voices of Othered people as a personal attack. (Seriously, you have to type in so many little "not everyone" disclaimers and use your most gentle words of suggestion and you'll still get at least one person who is offended. This is redic enough coming from the Limbaughs of the world, never mind people who are supposed to be allies.)

MRA is not a male version of feminism, though. I understand wanting to avoid being dismissive or flipping the narrative (I know that a big part of my personal growth has been shaking the socialization that ensuring other's comfort is more important than feeling safe); but it's ultimately a hateful movement cloaked in activist clothing for defense. MRAs are no more innocent people just calling out inequity than White Pride folks who insist Obama's birth certificate is fake are just people who are really really into following the law. Those people are bigots who are confident in their racism, and MRAs are misogynists who have learned code.
Looking out for sexism in family court for the benefit of men falls under feminism, and while I have personal doubts about anyone who is aware of that but does not want to call themselves a feminist, there are still other terms that suffice.

Mens' Rights Activism is a dogwhistle for a worldview that is dependent on women's rights detracting from mens' liberty. To use it to talk about good things (fair visitation rulings) doesn't erase it's association with the rest (women are crazy bitches who cry rape to ruin mens' lives for fun and will steal your sperm for child support; they have all sorts of privileges men don't and no souls); rather it sullies the discussion of valid points by dragging along those implications.

I think I'll make a cup of tea now, haha, or I'll ramble about entrenched sexism and cognitive dissonance until this becomes a wall of text.
X sansmerci
Mayor Gravity
What do you mean by "Just female"?

and, I feel stupid but what's MRA?

Like, I'm female, but my experience is going to be different from that of other females because there are more 'ims than just sexism & people don't experience them one at a time. The experience of a white, upper-class, heterosexual woman will be different from what a queer, working-class woman of color experiences (even if they live in the same place), to use a really obvious example. There are more subtle ways that aspects of one's role/perceived role in society can affect can intersect and affect one's experience.

So I preemptively disclaim when I think there might be people whose main experience with feminism is straw feminists from TV.

MRA is short for Mens Rights Activist. The words alone aren't terribly sinister, but those people who self-identify with the term tend to be anti-feminist, misogynistic and pretty well convinced that women/society has it out for (cisgendered, white) men. I've noticed a fair amount of homophobic attitudes as well, which isn't surprising anywhere you get misogyny.

So I was kvetching because that is a group that is the loudest and most serious about hearing "I'm a feminist" as "anyone who has a problem for a reason other than being female can go piss up a rope!" And, based on the Black History Month forum, I fully expect some to come rolling in to complain about mythical organized evil bitches who steal men's sperm for child support money.


MRA's often advocate misandry as well. I've seen a lot of them partake in rape apologism, which is making excuses for rapists such as "wearing a mini-skirt is asking for it." Pretty much saying that men can't control themselves.
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It is sad that schools only celebrate Black History month; I didn't learn about Women's history month until college and even that was through the radio! I got angry last year because people in my state were complaining about kids having to go to school on Martin Luthor King Day to make-up for snow days and this year it was "protected" from being a make-up day--Presidents day isn't even protected! I have nothing against Black History month except when you try to mention another history month someone gets angry and goes back to Black History month. I think we should give ALL history months attention, not just the ones who speak the loudest. I say we celebrate Susan B. Anothony Day and Women's History Month!
*thumbs up*
Miss-dark8607's avatar

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scorpiodragon7
It is sad that schools only celebrate Black History month; I didn't learn about Women's history month until college and even that was through the radio! I got angry last year because people in my state were complaining about kids having to go to school on Martin Luthor King Day to make-up for snow days and this year it was "protected" from being a make-up day--Presidents day isn't even protected! I have nothing against Black History month except when you try to mention another history month someone gets angry and goes back to Black History month. I think we should give ALL history months attention, not just the ones who speak the loudest. I say we celebrate Susan B. Anothony Day and Women's History Month!


THIS. That's why I felt that Gaia should have just went along and did a Women's history month forum. Yes it would have been trolled and spam but still.
CleoSombra's avatar

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Miss-dark8607
scorpiodragon7
It is sad that schools only celebrate Black History month; I didn't learn about Women's history month until college and even that was through the radio! I got angry last year because people in my state were complaining about kids having to go to school on Martin Luthor King Day to make-up for snow days and this year it was "protected" from being a make-up day--Presidents day isn't even protected! I have nothing against Black History month except when you try to mention another history month someone gets angry and goes back to Black History month. I think we should give ALL history months attention, not just the ones who speak the loudest. I say we celebrate Susan B. Anothony Day and Women's History Month!


THIS. That's why I felt that Gaia should have just went along and did a Women's history month forum. Yes it would have been trolled and spam but still.


I agree. The Hot Topic section is really a great opportunity for Gaia to be more progressive. But, alas.
Miss-dark8607's avatar

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CleoSombra
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scorpiodragon7
It is sad that schools only celebrate Black History month; I didn't learn about Women's history month until college and even that was through the radio! I got angry last year because people in my state were complaining about kids having to go to school on Martin Luthor King Day to make-up for snow days and this year it was "protected" from being a make-up day--Presidents day isn't even protected! I have nothing against Black History month except when you try to mention another history month someone gets angry and goes back to Black History month. I think we should give ALL history months attention, not just the ones who speak the loudest. I say we celebrate Susan B. Anothony Day and Women's History Month!


THIS. That's why I felt that Gaia should have just went along and did a Women's history month forum. Yes it would have been trolled and spam but still.


I agree. The Hot Topic section is really a great opportunity for Gaia to be more progressive. But, alas.


Well seems like women are getting pushed back into the dark ages anyways so I'm not really shocked with the whole attack on birth control and such.
constantLogic's avatar

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I can't really say much about the angry people hiding in feminist clothing since I haven't come across many, but the feminists I know (including myself) encompass everyone in every status of every colour and are more geared towards making everyone equal rather than all this bullshit (yes, it is bullshit) that the MRA is trying to spout.

As much as women are tired of being treated the way they are, which is simply too much detail for the time span that I have to type this, I'm equally as offended that I have to be considered "strong" and "domineering". While I enjoy being those things, sometimes I also enjoy having an effeminate side and, as I pointed out on my tumblr not too long ago, we really need better words for "masculine" and "effeminate" in general.

Sorry if I seemed somewhat out of it. It's been a really long day for me.
CleoSombra's avatar

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constantLogic
I can't really say much about the angry people hiding in feminist clothing since I haven't come across many, but the feminists I know (including myself) encompass everyone in every status of every colour and are more geared towards making everyone equal rather than all this bullshit (yes, it is bullshit) that the MRA is trying to spout.

As much as women are tired of being treated the way they are, which is simply too much detail for the time span that I have to type this, I'm equally as offended that I have to be considered "strong" and "domineering". While I enjoy being those things, sometimes I also enjoy having an effeminate side and, as I pointed out on my tumblr not too long ago, we really need better words for "masculine" and "effeminate" in general.

Sorry if I seemed somewhat out of it. It's been a really long day for me.


Oh, yes, absolutely yes.

Both men and women are judged for their ability to stay within the gender lines - and some studies show that men are judged more harshly than women. For example, a study on perceptions of traditional and nontraditional parents found that working mothers and stay-at-home fathers were rated less favorably than working fathers and stay-at-home mothers, with the stay-at-home fathers being rated the least favorable. This is probably due in part to the fact that there are very few stay-at-home fathers (only about 2% of fathers stay at home), while the percentage is much higher for mothers.

However, there's also the point that inherent in our society's standard male gender role identity (Brannon, 1970), is the idea that men must reject the feminine - AKA, "No Sissy Stuff." The result of this leads to devaluing feminine traits, especially in men.

The study I'm conducting right now for my honor's thesis looks at perceptions of both women and men in nontraditional gender roles. This study is an extension of what I did for Experimental Psychology, which found that nontraditional men (e.g., male nurse, man doing grocery shopping) was viewed as less attractive then all other groups and less likable than traditional men.


One of the things I'd like to pursue in the future is the influence of priming effects on our perceptions of people who break out of these gender norms - men as well as women. I think something really important in our society is for people to see positive instances of people debunking stereotypes and going against the expected.

Ultimately, though, men are going to have a hard time becoming accepted for feminine traits then women are for masculine ones. Femininity is devalued in our society, so a man that enters the feminine realm is seen as taking a step down. Where a woman entering the masculine realm might be looked at as empowered, or strong for "overcoming" something (her femaleness, society pressure, whatever), men are looked at more negatively because being feminine is not seen as empowering or something to strive for in society.
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Akina
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A friend and I were discussing the other night how feminists have ruined the men of our generation. We agreed that while women have risen up and changed their views, mentality, and their desirable roles in our culture (moving away from the home and being more prominent in the workplace), that men haven't really followed suit so much on the paradigm. We've found that it's given a lot of guys an excuse to be lazy, underachievers, wanting to sit around and play video games and coast along in life riding on their girlfriends/wives' incomes.


The problem is while women are allowed to break traditional gender roles men aren't. We had this dicussion in a lot of my Early Childcare classes how we don't see a lot of men in that field because society thinks it wrong for men to care for small children and there's little to no help for single dads in non-metro cities. So yeah let's not blame women but society as a whole for this. Without the feminists of yesterday please believe you wouldn't have the right to express yourself as such or much else. Feminism isn't a dirty game.

I'm all for the gals that allowed us the right to vote, work outside the home, and be seen as individuals that can contribute to society. I'm saying that the feminists of our generation have taken things beyond what our predecessors had intended, and the ideals have become warped and twisted. Women are not entitled to special rights any more than men are, and yet we are. You stated yourself some of the privileges women have over men. In addition, the court is heavily biased towards women in custody battles. I'm not blaming women, or I'd be blaming myself. I am saying that the current feminist movement is an issue. Feminists do not have to be women, there are male feminists.

The answer is not to downplay the role of a man and put women on a pedestal. By doing that you are keeping the same gender inequality issue, but simply reversing which gender is seen as prominent. If men believe their role is less valuable to society than their female counterparts, what would motivate them to work hard or believe they can achieve anything great? This is the issue my friend and I were discussing. We are tired of seeing men our age being unmotivated.


I don't believe much of that is really happening the way you interpret it. The reason women are favored in custody battles is because of the traditional view that women are the child rearers.

I don't believe that men being lazy and unproductive is due to women stepping up, and if it is, can you really blame women anyway? But I don't think it is--I think it's just more visible now since women have a greater ability to step up and work and leave a man who isn't pulling his weight, where in the past that simply wouldn't happen.
CleoSombra's avatar

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ClandestineDuck
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Miss-dark8607
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A friend and I were discussing the other night how feminists have ruined the men of our generation. We agreed that while women have risen up and changed their views, mentality, and their desirable roles in our culture (moving away from the home and being more prominent in the workplace), that men haven't really followed suit so much on the paradigm. We've found that it's given a lot of guys an excuse to be lazy, underachievers, wanting to sit around and play video games and coast along in life riding on their girlfriends/wives' incomes.


The problem is while women are allowed to break traditional gender roles men aren't. We had this dicussion in a lot of my Early Childcare classes how we don't see a lot of men in that field because society thinks it wrong for men to care for small children and there's little to no help for single dads in non-metro cities. So yeah let's not blame women but society as a whole for this. Without the feminists of yesterday please believe you wouldn't have the right to express yourself as such or much else. Feminism isn't a dirty game.

I'm all for the gals that allowed us the right to vote, work outside the home, and be seen as individuals that can contribute to society. I'm saying that the feminists of our generation have taken things beyond what our predecessors had intended, and the ideals have become warped and twisted. Women are not entitled to special rights any more than men are, and yet we are. You stated yourself some of the privileges women have over men. In addition, the court is heavily biased towards women in custody battles. I'm not blaming women, or I'd be blaming myself. I am saying that the current feminist movement is an issue. Feminists do not have to be women, there are male feminists.

The answer is not to downplay the role of a man and put women on a pedestal. By doing that you are keeping the same gender inequality issue, but simply reversing which gender is seen as prominent. If men believe their role is less valuable to society than their female counterparts, what would motivate them to work hard or believe they can achieve anything great? This is the issue my friend and I were discussing. We are tired of seeing men our age being unmotivated.


I don't believe much of that is really happening the way you interpret it. The reason women are favored in custody battles is because of the traditional view that women are the child rearers.

I don't believe that men being lazy and unproductive is due to women stepping up, and if it is, can you really blame women anyway? But I don't think it is--I think it's just more visible now since women have a greater ability to step up and work and leave a man who isn't pulling his weight, where in the past that simply wouldn't happen.


Indeed. In the 19th century, it was actually men who were favored in custody battles because the children were the "property" of men and because they were handy in work/physical labor. There was even a "tender years" law where the mother would raise the child until about 6 years of age and then the child would be 'turned over' to the father. Source. This law actually served as a bit of a platform to make the argument that women were better at raising children. It was "natural" for them, they were inclined to it, maternal instinct, etc.

None of this is good, of course, but it's not that women are favored in custody battles for being perceived as better human beings - they're just viewed as being more fit for childcare. This belief often comes at a price: Women who do not sacrifice their career (part or all of it) when they have children are often viewed as being neglectful. Care of children is assumed to be a mother's role - in fact, men are often referred to as "baby-sitters" when handling their own children.
Mayor Gravity's avatar

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Sullen BabyDoll05
X sansmerci
Mayor Gravity
What do you mean by "Just female"?

and, I feel stupid but what's MRA?

Like, I'm female, but my experience is going to be different from that of other females because there are more 'ims than just sexism & people don't experience them one at a time. The experience of a white, upper-class, heterosexual woman will be different from what a queer, working-class woman of color experiences (even if they live in the same place), to use a really obvious example. There are more subtle ways that aspects of one's role/perceived role in society can affect can intersect and affect one's experience.

So I preemptively disclaim when I think there might be people whose main experience with feminism is straw feminists from TV.

MRA is short for Mens Rights Activist. The words alone aren't terribly sinister, but those people who self-identify with the term tend to be anti-feminist, misogynistic and pretty well convinced that women/society has it out for (cisgendered, white) men. I've noticed a fair amount of homophobic attitudes as well, which isn't surprising anywhere you get misogyny.

So I was kvetching because that is a group that is the loudest and most serious about hearing "I'm a feminist" as "anyone who has a problem for a reason other than being female can go piss up a rope!" And, based on the Black History Month forum, I fully expect some to come rolling in to complain about mythical organized evil bitches who steal men's sperm for child support money.


MRA's often advocate misandry as well. I've seen a lot of them partake in rape apologism, which is making excuses for rapists such as "wearing a mini-skirt is asking for it." Pretty much saying that men can't control themselves.
Which is bullshit
Mayor Gravity's avatar

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scorpiodragon7
It is sad that schools only celebrate Black History month; I didn't learn about Women's history month until college and even that was through the radio! I got angry last year because people in my state were complaining about kids having to go to school on Martin Luthor King Day to make-up for snow days and this year it was "protected" from being a make-up day--Presidents day isn't even protected! I have nothing against Black History month except when you try to mention another history month someone gets angry and goes back to Black History month. I think we should give ALL history months attention, not just the ones who speak the loudest. I say we celebrate Susan B. Anothony Day and Women's History Month!
Wouldn't Susan B. Anthony be "inside" Women's history month?

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