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There has been enough interest in the more involved histories of Middle-earth to warrant the creation of a new official thread.

While this is a thread for deeper discussion of topics presented in the Silmarillion and, to an extent, Lord of the Rings, do not hesitate to post if you are trying to read one of these works and have a question, have heard or read some particular piece of information and do not know where it comes from, or the like. That's what this thread is for.

While the Sil, LotR, and the Hobbit can be discussed in this thread, it is primarily for the following:

Vinyar Tengwar
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
Unfinished Tales
The History of Middle-earth
1. The Book of Lost Tales Part I
2. The Book of Lost Tales Part II
3. Lays of Beleriand
4. The Shaping of Middle-earth
5. The Lost Road and Other Writings
6. The Return of the Shadow
7. The Treason of Isengard
8. The War of the Ring
9. Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age
10. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion Part I
11. The War of the Jewels: The Later Silmarillion Part II
12. The Peoples of Middle-earth


...basically, anything goes.
Yes. I'm probably going to need this for... something. ninja
It's a big topic. I'll steal this one too.

I should steal one with a mule, but meh.
Nimphelos
It's a big topic. I'll steal this one too.

I should steal one with a mule, but meh.


Had you done that I think I would have been forced to hurt you.

Uhhh... I like the Sarati. It is purdy.
Falathrim
I like the Sarati. It is purdy.


Definitely. Hey, if anyone's interested, I can put the info I have on it in some thread, in readable form. I know we have the elvish thread, but I don't think Sarati really fits there, since the main mode is English, and it's a script, not a language.

Also, I was thinking of starting a thread to talk about C.S. Lewis and Tolkien...and especially thier works share themes and other ideas....especially the space/time challenge they had. ( Which Tolkien never finished. sweatdrop )

I think after Narnia comes out, we'll get a lot of people wanting to discuss Lewis. Not to the same extent as Tolkien, but some interest is better than indifference. I surely hope. And I heart Lewis.
PearlZenith
Falathrim
I like the Sarati. It is purdy.


Definitely. Hey, if anyone's interested, I can put the info I have on it in some thread, in readable form. I know we have the elvish thread, but I don't think Sarati really fits there, since the main mode is English, and it's a script, not a language.

Also, I was thinking of starting a thread to talk about C.S. Lewis and Tolkien...and especially thier works share themes and other ideas....especially the space/time challenge they had. ( Which Tolkien never finished. sweatdrop )

I think after Narnia comes out, we'll get a lot of people wanting to discuss Lewis. Not to the same extent as Tolkien, but some interest is better than indifference. I surely hope. And I heart Lewis.


Ooo, that would be great biggrin I'm not completely clued up on Sarati, brain doesn't remember things like that, but it would be good to have a thread. One about Tolkien and Lewis would be brilliant -would have a few bones to pick with C S Lewis if she could-
Aglarien
I'm going to stick up for Namo -pats him- razz I think he knew what would happen to Finwe, but he didn't stop it because of the greater good. If he had forewarned Feanor, the Silmarils wouldn't have been stolen, and ultimately, the Sun and Moon and Awakening of Men wouldn't have happened. It depends what you see as more important; the destruction of a few places and the death of a large number of elves (whom the Valar would be biased against anyway), or the creation of a Sun and Moon and a whole new race of people, and also the temporary checking of Morgoth's powers. From Mandos' point of view, I think the second would have been considered the greater good, and the Feanorians had to be sacrificed for it.


While this conclusion is workable in terms of the published Silmarillion, it is utterly at variance with what Tolkien later decided to be what happened. Men did not awaken at the first rising of the Sun. They awoke long before the Darkening of Valinor - before the Battle of the Powers, even.
Falathrim
Aglarien
I'm going to stick up for Namo -pats him- razz I think he knew what would happen to Finwe, but he didn't stop it because of the greater good. If he had forewarned Feanor, the Silmarils wouldn't have been stolen, and ultimately, the Sun and Moon and Awakening of Men wouldn't have happened. It depends what you see as more important; the destruction of a few places and the death of a large number of elves (whom the Valar would be biased against anyway), or the creation of a Sun and Moon and a whole new race of people, and also the temporary checking of Morgoth's powers. From Mandos' point of view, I think the second would have been considered the greater good, and the Feanorians had to be sacrificed for it.


While this conclusion is workable in terms of the published Silmarillion, it is utterly at variance with what Tolkien later decided to be what happened. Men did not awaken at the first rising of the Sun. They awoke long before the Darkening of Valinor - before the Battle of the Powers, even.
Oh, woe be me, I want...no, I NEED HoME and UT, damnit...

How can that be? I am at a loss. confused
Falathrim
Aglarien
I'm going to stick up for Namo -pats him- razz I think he knew what would happen to Finwe, but he didn't stop it because of the greater good. If he had forewarned Feanor, the Silmarils wouldn't have been stolen, and ultimately, the Sun and Moon and Awakening of Men wouldn't have happened. It depends what you see as more important; the destruction of a few places and the death of a large number of elves (whom the Valar would be biased against anyway), or the creation of a Sun and Moon and a whole new race of people, and also the temporary checking of Morgoth's powers. From Mandos' point of view, I think the second would have been considered the greater good, and the Feanorians had to be sacrificed for it.


While this conclusion is workable in terms of the published Silmarillion, it is utterly at variance with what Tolkien later decided to be what happened. Men did not awaken at the first rising of the Sun. They awoke long before the Darkening of Valinor - before the Battle of the Powers, even.


I thought that the Silm version was ultimately decided to be the correct one. Even so, the only other place I can think of that has a reference to the Awakening of Men is UT1. Even in that, they are still said to be waiting for the light. Only two men awoke before the sun rose, and only then because Nuin physically disturbed them. The rest still awoke for the first time when the sun rose.

If you're referring to a different version, let me know razz
The published Silmarillion, while most frequently accepted as the Arda 'canon', is far from correct in several occasions, and often contradicts what Tolkien had clearly had intended. Gil-galad, son of Fingon, anyone?

Late in his life, Tolkien realized that:

Myths Transformed, MR pg. 378
a bare 400 years is quite inadequete to produce the variety, and the advancements (e.g. of the Edain) at the time of Felagund.


Realizing that thousands of years at least would be needed for Men to be as advanced as they were, he pushed back the year of their awakening back to about the time of the Great Journey.

Myths Transformed, MR pg. 378
Therefore in some period during the Great March.


Of course, because they needed to be perverted by Morgoth before they could leave Hildorien, they would need to have been awake before he was chained at the end of the Battle of the Powers. This brings to light an inconsisteny with the established chronology, that is, Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe weren't brought to Valinor until several years following the Battle of the Powers.

This is not as major a problem as it should seem. It is clear that Tolkien had intended to rewrite the chronology of this era, but simply never got around to it. In fact, Tolkien writes that the Elves were brought to Aman because the Valar wanted them out of Melkor's sphere of influence - thus, the Great March, in the revised mythology, is clearly undertaken simultaneously with the Battle of the Powers.

This makes sense. Often, Orome (the Eldars' guide, remember) would leave the Elves in one place to go do other stuff. Perhaps he had matters of war to attend to?

The Annals of Aman, MR pg. 82
Therefore, whenever Orome departed, as at times he would, having other matters to heed, they halted and went forward no more until he returned to them.


Furthermore, even Melkor was interrupted with his plans at this time. As important as the the Valar attempting to overthrow Utumno is, I have no doubts that Melkor would find the perversion of Men to be of greater importance. Yet:

The Tale of Adanel, MR pg. 346
Then he went away, and we did not see him for a long time, and without his gifts we were poor.


So both Orome and Melkor were interrupted at times. Wars tend to do that. Of course, this is just a theory on my part, so feel free to form your own conclusions.

The Battle of the Powers was not waged with any hope of victory. Melkor, after all, was greater than all other Valar combined. It was merely a diversionary tactic to get the Eldar to Aman.

Myths Transformed, MR pg. 390
The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence.


But, as we know, Melkor had put so much of himself into the very matter of Arda that he himself had been weakened. The Valar were thus victorious in their hopeless war. Melkor was chained, and the Quendi were saved.

Myths Transformed, MR pg. 391
Manwe at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwe to percieve the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to percieve this also from his own point of view: he now has less personal force than Manwe, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.


Too late for Men, though. They were already corrupted into revering Melkor as the One.

And so long as I'm doing quotes:

Myths Transformed, MR pg. 392
Melkor is taken back to Valinor going last (save for Tulkas who follows bearing Angainor and clinking it to remind Melkor).
I don't even remember reading all that in Morgoth's Ring stressed Come to think of it, I don't even remember reading Morgoth's Ring at all. Well, only vaguely razz

Good points razz -Admits defeat- I always referred to the Silm versions as the final ones, so thanks for enlightening me. I think Viya may just worship you forever now; she's been telling me this all along as well razz
Falathrim
Gil-galad, son of Fingon, anyone?


Dear Eru, please no.

Thanks for the overview; I've been meaning to finish reading Morgoth's Ring, and this gives me more motivation.
I wish I had HoME with me right now, but I couldn't lug it all home for Thanksgiving Break. sad

Falathrim
So both Orome and Melkor were interrupted at times. Wars tend to do that. Of course, this is just a theory on my part, so feel free to form your own conclusions.


I think it puts a more ominous twist on why the Eldar stopped moving ahead whenever Orome left them. I find the thought that Orome left them and went off to fight somewhat disturbing, though. Did he just go off and leave them completely unprotected?
Wow, Fala... that is a really clear and awesome post.

Orome and Melkor being interrupted for various war businesses makes a whole lot of sense. Since I thought it was weird that he would just randomly leave.

And because I liked your last quote so much (and because I can't think of anything else that's on topic sweatdrop ) I hauled out the old MR and noticed the footnote on the bottom of 392 which is related to that last quote holy that sentence was worded badly.

MR, 392
Tulkas represents the good side of 'violence' in the war against evil. This is an absence of all compromise which will even face apparent evils (such as war) rather than parley; and does not (in any kind of pride) think that anyone less than Eru can redress this or rewrite the tale of Arda.

Now, although this raises a couple of interesting points, what mostly interested me about this footnote is the contrast it presents between Manwe and Tulkas, the nature of Manwe being one of my favourite complex things in Tolkien's work.

Anyway, it made me wonder about the consequences of someone like Tulkas rather than someone like Manwe being in charge, and maybe what that says about the overall moral system of Arda but that's kind of a huge off-topic topic so I won't get into that.
Falathrim

Too late for Men, though. They were already corrupted into revering Melkor as the One.


Interesting discussion, Fala. But, like you said, not entirely surprising given earlier work; in the letter which makes the preface to the second edition of the Silmarillion, Tolkien says something about how Men had already had their Fall before they even get on-stage in the narrative. Even tho this letter was written before the publication of either the Silmarillion or the Lord of the Rings, it seems logical to me that he would eventually decide that more time needed to transpire in order for this fall from grace to be thoroughly accomplished.

Sort of along these lines (and along the lines of the "What if Tulkas was in charge" question) -- the concept is introduced at least once in the Lost Tales that the gods/Valar had made mistakes. This concept seems out-of-sync to me with the latter Silmarillion, but it is never explicitly denied. (In other words, nowhere does anyone say anything about Manwe or any other Valar being infallible.) Is this concept addressed again latter on in HoME?

Personally, I've always thought the idea of less-than-perfect gods made the stories more interesting and believable.

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