Welcome to Gaia! ::

Kitakiy's avatar

Chatty Werewolf

8,450 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Popular Thread 100
  • Team Jacob 100
blazewing2010
Kitakiy
blazewing2010
Just pointing out that the christians, have no right to complain about discrimination. Especially since they see the "god given" right to decide who I'm allowed to marry, etc etc.

All I'm trying to say is they're not completely blameless


But... they DO have a right to complain about discrimination... just like you do...
Obviously, the hate-filled bitchy ones are not blameless, but the nice, caring ones who DON'T personally discriminate or treat people like crap - um... yea, they are blameless.

Generalizations people... let's stop this. Why can't people just talk s**t about the assholes instead of deciding that, say, kittens are ALL assholes because one time one scratched you and it hurt and then you treat all of the other kittens like assholes. "THAT'S FOR THAT ONE TIME WHEN ONE OF YOUR PEOPLE SCRATCHED ME, BITCHES!" Instead, squirt the little scratching kitten in the face and let all the other kittens laugh at it with you ^_^
POint taken. Well said.

I heart kittens ^_^
Avatar of Virtue's avatar

Lonely Prophet

6,750 Points
  • Invisibility 100
  • Mark Twain 100
  • First step to fame 200
AllThingsNew101
Nice try dude!

But Christ was speaking of those who would pray out loud on a corner so that they could be seen by everyone, and everyone could say "wow, he is really holy". He is refering to pious show offs. He goes on in the next verse to talk about how wen we DO pray, to do so in our secret place, so that out Father (God) who sees us in secret will reward us! He is specifically talking about the act of PRAYER.

Thats very different form keeping quiet about about your faith altogether for the sake of so psudo-peace, never bringing it up just because people get worked up about it. Thats what me and Sekhmet-chan were talking about, and that was the cotext my comment was said in.

And with all due respect, its hard to use the Scriptures out of context. Citing one verse ususally never works, because it is almost always out of context!

You know. Part of me really wants to call you on this.

But then I look down, and see you've quoted XII.

And I just can't pick a fight with a fellow child of Ivalice.

I just won't do it.
Blackrose_Knight's avatar

Devoted Pirate

Mortok
Blackrose_Knight
blazewing2010
Blackrose_Knight
blazewing2010
, not to mention all the other religions they've buttraped as well. Look at the Salem Witch Trials,

No witches were killed during the Salem Witch Trials. That is a perfect example of crowd mentality, and abusing a system to take land from other people.


Governor Phipps, in response to Mather's plea and his own wife being questioned for witchcraft, prohibited further arrests, released many accused witches and dissolved the Court of Oyer and Terminer on October 29. [bPhipps replaced it with a Superior Court of Judicature, which disallowed spectral evidence and only condemned 3 out of 56 defendants. Phipps eventually pardoned all who were in prison on witchcraft charges by May 1693. But the damage had been done: 19 were hanged on Gallows Hill, a 71-year-old man was pressed to death with heavy stones, several people died in jail] and nearly 200 people, overall, had been accused of practicing "the Devil's magic."

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/brief-salem.html#ixzz1t7QCBdCy
Accused witch =/= witch. None of the people killed were witches and/or practicing magic. I don't see the point of your post as it supports my assertions no actual witches were killed in Salem... I find it abhorrent and slightly curious (pardon my social psychology based mind) that people were considered witches then killed.

If you falsely accuse people of being pokemon fans, and then execute them for being pokemon fans, that is still persecution of pokeman fans, even though no real pokemon fans are killed.

Whether or not the Salem Witch Trials had any degree of success is beside the point. The intent was to eliminate witches, thus witches were persecuted.
My point is the "Witch Trails" were farces to take land from people. It was a means of milking the system.
1) Accuse your neighbor who has more land than you of witchcraft
2) falsify evidence
3) Convict neighbor to death
4) ???
5) Profit.

Yes, there was an atmosphere of Devil IS EVERYWAAAAR during that time period. Culturally speaking (strict Christians of the Puritan flavor) that if you are in league with the Devil (re EVERYTHING IS THE DEVIL BUT EXACTLY WHAT WE THINK AND BELIEVE!!!!!ONEONEonewon) you are a witch. While I am certain that if a witch was present they would have been just as persecuted than say... a different sect of Christianity not in line with those in Salem.

Edit:

Scholars have noted potentially telling differences between the accused and the accusers in Salem. Most of the accused lived to the south of, and were generally better off financially, than most of the accusers. In a number of cases, accusing families stood to gain property from the convictions of accused witches. Also, the accused and the accusers generally took opposite sides in a congregational schism that had split the Salem community before the outbreak of hysteria. While many of the accused witches supported former minister George Burroughs, the families that included the accusers had--for the most part--played leading roles in forcing Burroughs to leave Salem. The conclusion that many scholars draw from these patterns is that property disputes and congregational feuds played a major role in determining who lived, and who died, in 1692.
Source
blazewing2010's avatar

6,850 Points
  • Money Never Sleeps 200
  • Team Jacob 100
  • Forum Sophomore 300
Mortok
Blackrose_Knight
blazewing2010
Blackrose_Knight
blazewing2010
, not to mention all the other religions they've buttraped as well. Look at the Salem Witch Trials,

No witches were killed during the Salem Witch Trials. That is a perfect example of crowd mentality, and abusing a system to take land from other people.


Governor Phipps, in response to Mather's plea and his own wife being questioned for witchcraft, prohibited further arrests, released many accused witches and dissolved the Court of Oyer and Terminer on October 29. [bPhipps replaced it with a Superior Court of Judicature, which disallowed spectral evidence and only condemned 3 out of 56 defendants. Phipps eventually pardoned all who were in prison on witchcraft charges by May 1693. But the damage had been done: 19 were hanged on Gallows Hill, a 71-year-old man was pressed to death with heavy stones, several people died in jail] and nearly 200 people, overall, had been accused of practicing "the Devil's magic."

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/brief-salem.html#ixzz1t7QCBdCy
Accused witch =/= witch. None of the people killed were witches and/or practicing magic. I don't see the point of your post as it supports my assertions no actual witches were killed in Salem... I find it abhorrent and slightly curious (pardon my social psychology based mind) that people were considered witches then killed.

If you falsely accuse people of being pokemon fans, and then execute them for being pokemon fans, that is still persecution of pokeman fans, even though no real pokemon fans are killed.

Whether or not the Salem Witch Trials had any degree of success is beside the point. The intent was to eliminate witches, thus witches were persecuted.
This
blazewing2010's avatar

6,850 Points
  • Money Never Sleeps 200
  • Team Jacob 100
  • Forum Sophomore 300
Kitakiy
blazewing2010
Kitakiy
blazewing2010
Just pointing out that the christians, have no right to complain about discrimination. Especially since they see the "god given" right to decide who I'm allowed to marry, etc etc.

All I'm trying to say is they're not completely blameless


But... they DO have a right to complain about discrimination... just like you do...
Obviously, the hate-filled bitchy ones are not blameless, but the nice, caring ones who DON'T personally discriminate or treat people like crap - um... yea, they are blameless.

Generalizations people... let's stop this. Why can't people just talk s**t about the assholes instead of deciding that, say, kittens are ALL assholes because one time one scratched you and it hurt and then you treat all of the other kittens like assholes. "THAT'S FOR THAT ONE TIME WHEN ONE OF YOUR PEOPLE SCRATCHED ME, BITCHES!" Instead, squirt the little scratching kitten in the face and let all the other kittens laugh at it with you ^_^
POint taken. Well said.

I heart kittens ^_^
Point taken again, well said again!
1tty bitty kitty's avatar

Unbeatable Member

10,000 Points
  • Contributor 150
  • Nerd 50
  • Gaian 50
blazewing2010
1tty bitty kitty
blazewing2010
I find it hilarious that Christians complain about discrimination at all, considering all the pagans they killed, tortured and humiliated, not to mention all the other religions they've buttraped as well. Look at the Salem Witch Trials, or better yet, the Crusades!
Yup! That was all done by so called "Christians."
This is why I dont have time for any christian who forces their god down my throat. I don't force my beliefs down theirs.

Do you know about all the other groups of people who killed, tortured, and humiliated other groups of people?
White people killed and tortured throughout history, yet there are parts of the world where white people are discriminated against. Should those individuals not try to stop the discrimination because of their ancestors?
Discrimination goes both ways.
Again. you've missed the point that I have an extreme dislike of most christians, because it's been proven time and time again that their religion doesn't learn >.>

I understand that you have an extreme dislike for most christians. However, that does not mean that discrimination toward christians should be acceptable. Discrimination is wrong, no matter who is being discriminated against.
BjordahlKathryn1991's avatar

Sparkly Shapeshifter

5,000 Points
  • Team Jacob 100
  • Team Edward 100
  • Contributor 150
I love my faith. It kept me alive during the worst few months I had late and earlier months of 2011 and 2012. I wasn't eating and getting sick every day. My faith kept me strong and I overcame that frightening part of my life. I don't go to my church that often but I know that God and Jesus Christ still love me and will always protect me.
Just Another Face -GM-
AllThingsNew101
Nice try dude!

But Christ was speaking of those who would pray out loud on a corner so that they could be seen by everyone, and everyone could say "wow, he is really holy". He is refering to pious show offs. He goes on in the next verse to talk about how wen we DO pray, to do so in our secret place, so that out Father (God) who sees us in secret will reward us! He is specifically talking about the act of PRAYER.

Thats very different form keeping quiet about about your faith altogether for the sake of so psudo-peace, never bringing it up just because people get worked up about it. Thats what me and Sekhmet-chan were talking about, and that was the cotext my comment was said in.

And with all due respect, its hard to use the Scriptures out of context. Citing one verse ususally never works, because it is almost always out of context!

You know. Part of me really wants to call you on this.

But then I look down, and see you've quoted XII.

And I just can't pick a fight with a fellow child of Ivalice.

I just won't do it.


Well, fellow brother, You can call me on whatever you like.
If I am to be called on anything, I would rather it be by a brother, after all.
And there will be no fight, only discussion! ^_^

PS: FFXII was the BEST!
BjordahlKathryn1991
I love my faith. It kept me alive during the worst few months I had late and earlier months of 2011 and 2012. I wasn't eating and getting sick every day. My faith kept me strong and I overcame that frightening part of my life. I don't go to my church that often but I know that God and Jesus Christ still love me and will always protect me.


Yes!
Just...Yes!
Avatar of Virtue's avatar

Lonely Prophet

6,750 Points
  • Invisibility 100
  • Mark Twain 100
  • First step to fame 200
AllThingsNew101
Well, fellow brother, You can call me on whatever you like.
If I am to be called on anything, I would rather it be by a brother, after all.
And there will be no fight, only discussion! ^_^

PS: FFXII was the BEST!
Twelve was very solid, although I prefer Tactics somewhat, simply because the human politics remained important until near the end of the last chapter, where XII goes more into magic and the gods somewhat early on.

As for the bible and context.

A lot of the verses in the bible are good for interpretation, and even among two people of near identical upbringing, the bible can mean drastically different things from person to person. I say this not as an atheist, although I am, but as someone who was once devout, and was driven down the path to godlessness by the bible itself.

I don't see any problem bringing things in the bible out of context, because it shifts from being literal to metaphorical to totally fictitious at a whim.

Once again, not meaning to attack you, just pointing out my issues with the faith.

SIDE QUESTION : Favorite city / area in XII.

Mosphoran Highwaste, or maybe Bujherba.
Kitakiy's avatar

Chatty Werewolf

8,450 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Popular Thread 100
  • Team Jacob 100
Mortok
Blackrose_Knight
blazewing2010
Blackrose_Knight
blazewing2010
, not to mention all the other religions they've buttraped as well. Look at the Salem Witch Trials,

No witches were killed during the Salem Witch Trials. That is a perfect example of crowd mentality, and abusing a system to take land from other people.


Governor Phipps, in response to Mather's plea and his own wife being questioned for witchcraft, prohibited further arrests, released many accused witches and dissolved the Court of Oyer and Terminer on October 29. [bPhipps replaced it with a Superior Court of Judicature, which disallowed spectral evidence and only condemned 3 out of 56 defendants. Phipps eventually pardoned all who were in prison on witchcraft charges by May 1693. But the damage had been done: 19 were hanged on Gallows Hill, a 71-year-old man was pressed to death with heavy stones, several people died in jail] and nearly 200 people, overall, had been accused of practicing "the Devil's magic."

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/brief-salem.html#ixzz1t7QCBdCy
Accused witch =/= witch. None of the people killed were witches and/or practicing magic. I don't see the point of your post as it supports my assertions no actual witches were killed in Salem... I find it abhorrent and slightly curious (pardon my social psychology based mind) that people were considered witches then killed.

If you falsely accuse people of being pokemon fans, and then execute them for being pokemon fans, that is still persecution of pokeman fans, even though no real pokemon fans are killed.

Whether or not the Salem Witch Trials had any degree of success is beside the point. The intent was to eliminate witches, thus witches were persecuted.


Now this may just be speculation (and dangit I said I wouldn't get into this particular discussion) and yes, what you say does make sense - but are you even certain that it was to kill witches in the first place? Blackrose said that it was often for land (and yes, these people ended up being killed because they were accused of witchcraft, and that in and of itself is wrong) but it's the way that people USED the 'crying witch' thing that was important. Another example might be that someone is not giving enough money to the church or that people were starting to explore other ideas in christianity and therefore were no longer under the control of the Church - accuse them of something (terrible, really, that witchcraft was the tool used) that was unnacceptable (and weren't people ignorant as hell back then anyway?) and BAM no more problem, no more rebellion, or maybe you have your neighbor's land or an entire estate to donate to the Church.

But as said before - while those particular christians truly were cruel an ignorant, it does not give anyone a right to treat the christians around them like crap - because they were not involved, and probably would not have been involved. (Of course, there are SOME who may have been - but treat those specific PEOPLE like crap instead ^_^ - not everyone of that religion)
Just Another Face -GM-
AllThingsNew101
Well, fellow brother, You can call me on whatever you like.
If I am to be called on anything, I would rather it be by a brother, after all.
And there will be no fight, only discussion! ^_^

PS: FFXII was the BEST!
Twelve was very solid, although I prefer Tactics somewhat, simply because the human politics remained important until near the end of the last chapter, where XII goes more into magic and the gods somewhat early on.

As for the bible and context.

A lot of the verses in the bible are good for interpretation, and even among two people of near identical upbringing, the bible can mean drastically different things from person to person. I say this not as an atheist, although I am, but as someone who was once devout, and was driven down the path to godlessness by the bible itself.

I don't see any problem bringing things in the bible out of context, because it shifts from being literal to metaphorical to totally fictitious at a whim.

Once again, not meaning to attack you, just pointing out my issues with the faith.

SIDE QUESTION : Favorite city / area in XII.

Mosphoran Highwaste, or maybe Bujherba.



I see your point, and I agree to some degree. I think honestly, the bible was meant to be read IN CONTEXT (literal, historical, social), and we have gotten so confortable reading it out of context that it has become common place, and a root of a lot of the distructive intupretations that are out there!

SIDE QUESTION: Bujherba was the best by far. Nothing like a sky city to get you going.
I also loved the Pharos at Ridorana, but mostly because of the important plot events tha happened there. It was there that Ashe said the quote in my sig!
Mortok's avatar

Tipsy Exhibitionist

Kitakiy
Mortok
Blackrose_Knight
blazewing2010
Blackrose_Knight
blazewing2010
, not to mention all the other religions they've buttraped as well. Look at the Salem Witch Trials,

No witches were killed during the Salem Witch Trials. That is a perfect example of crowd mentality, and abusing a system to take land from other people.


Governor Phipps, in response to Mather's plea and his own wife being questioned for witchcraft, prohibited further arrests, released many accused witches and dissolved the Court of Oyer and Terminer on October 29. [bPhipps replaced it with a Superior Court of Judicature, which disallowed spectral evidence and only condemned 3 out of 56 defendants. Phipps eventually pardoned all who were in prison on witchcraft charges by May 1693. But the damage had been done: 19 were hanged on Gallows Hill, a 71-year-old man was pressed to death with heavy stones, several people died in jail] and nearly 200 people, overall, had been accused of practicing "the Devil's magic."

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/brief-salem.html#ixzz1t7QCBdCy
Accused witch =/= witch. None of the people killed were witches and/or practicing magic. I don't see the point of your post as it supports my assertions no actual witches were killed in Salem... I find it abhorrent and slightly curious (pardon my social psychology based mind) that people were considered witches then killed.

If you falsely accuse people of being pokemon fans, and then execute them for being pokemon fans, that is still persecution of pokeman fans, even though no real pokemon fans are killed.

Whether or not the Salem Witch Trials had any degree of success is beside the point. The intent was to eliminate witches, thus witches were persecuted.


Now this may just be speculation (and dangit I said I wouldn't get into this particular discussion) and yes, what you say does make sense - but are you even certain that it was to kill witches in the first place? Blackrose said that it was often for land (and yes, these people ended up being killed because they were accused of witchcraft, and that in and of itself is wrong) but it's the way that people USED the 'crying witch' thing that was important. Another example might be that someone is not giving enough money to the church or that people were starting to explore other ideas in christianity and therefore were no longer under the control of the Church - accuse them of something (terrible, really, that witchcraft was the tool used) that was unnacceptable (and weren't people ignorant as hell back then anyway?) and BAM no more problem, no more rebellion, or maybe you have your neighbor's land or an entire estate to donate to the Church.

But as said before - while those particular christians truly were cruel an ignorant, it does not give anyone a right to treat the christians around them like crap - because they were not involved, and probably would not have been involved. (Of course, there are SOME who may have been - but treat those specific PEOPLE like crap instead ^_^ - not everyone of that religion)

Whatever the "real" reason was, the official excuse was witches. "Witches", or rather, the idea of them, were being used as a scapegoat. So that still counts as witches being persecuted. Blaming someone for wrongdoing to distract from the real issue is an act of persecution.

And the bible states pretty clearly that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". So if you aren't persecuting witches, then you aren't really doing your job as a Christian.
Avatar of Virtue's avatar

Lonely Prophet

6,750 Points
  • Invisibility 100
  • Mark Twain 100
  • First step to fame 200
AllThingsNew101
I see your point, and I agree to some degree. I think honestly, the bible was meant to be read IN CONTEXT (literal, historical, social), and we have gotten so confortable reading it out of context that it has become common place, and a root of a lot of the distructive intupretations that are out there!

SIDE QUESTION: Bujherba was the best by far. Nothing like a sky city to get you going.
I also loved the Pharos at Ridorana, but mostly because of the important plot events tha happened there. It was there that Ashe said the quote in my sig!
I agree and disagree. Out of context interpretations, or following the letter as opposed to the spirit has often caused problems. I mean, s**t, Slavery was justified for years saying WELL THE BIBLE SAYS I CAN OWN'EM. But Jesus was unfortunately pretty mum on the topic. It's the exact same social issue facing homosexuality today. At the same time, people like Westboro Baptist are reading that s**t front to back and... g'damn.

I would have said the Cryst at Giruvagan, but ******** that puzzle. I hated that maze on the way to find the Occuria. The least intuitive puzzle in a game in a long damn time.
Kitakiy's avatar

Chatty Werewolf

8,450 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Popular Thread 100
  • Team Jacob 100
Mortok
Whatever the "real" reason was, the official excuse was witches. "Witches", or rather, the idea of them, were being used as a scapegoat. So that still counts as witches being persecuted. Blaming someone for wrongdoing to distract from the real issue is an act of persecution.


AHA! that's the word I was looking for. Scapegoat.
Anywho - yes, the excuse that they were 'witches' is an act of discrimination against witches/pagans, whether or not the accused were actually witches/pagans, and whether or not there was a conspirital reason behind it.
What do they call that? Casualties of war. Ya.
Anywho.


I'm going to bed. I'm sore as hell from sitting like this for two hours and tired and I no longer have any stake in this debate ^_^
Not that I really did in the first place.

Quick Reply

Submit
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games