U.S. judge strikes down Utah's gay marriage ban

[Alexander J Luthor]

YahuShalum

I don't follow this Jesus Christ you speak of. Also we're allowed to judge between what's right and wrong. Homosexuality is wrong, just because you leftist scumbags think it's ok doesn't make it so. They will reap what they sow if they don't repent. They have an entire lifetime to come to truth. But some people just aren't called to be set apart for salvation. The lake of fire will be their demise as they die with the flesh they love. They will not also have a fleshly death but also spiritual death. But you're right it's none of my business to stop them from merrily skipping down the path to destruction. I feel the same way about abortion, honestly let the heathens kill off their offspring, their sin is upon them. Just as they sacrificed their children to their pagan gods let them sacrifice their fetus to their self worship. Your heathen rituals won't effect me.

Respect - GONE.

I don't care if you don't care. That comment had so much d**k in it I feel the need to publicly distance myself from you.

[SinivarAgain]

Misty Moonsilver

SinivarAgain

Misty Moonsilver

SinivarAgain

Misty Moonsilver

SparkyKid3000

Oh I see. You plan on repeating yourself instead of providing a proper rebuttal to my argument. The best you can come up with is gay marriage making you uncomfortable. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that's never going to be a good enough reason to flat out deny a group of people basic rights given to everybody else. The public doesn't get to decide who has rights and who doesn't. Quite honestly, I don't care if you think it's a slap in the face. Who are you to tell anyone else they don't deserve the same rights and benefits that you do simply because gay marriage makes you uncomfortable. How do you go about life with such an arrogant attitude?

So my argument is invalid because I don't agree with you. Typical. Well then ******** it. This conversation is over if you can't acknowledge that other people will not always agree with you.
And its not just because people feel uncomfortable. It has to do with their religion. Utah is a very Morman state and it would be against their beliefs to perform certain services to gays.
People love to b***h about religion (mainly Christianity) yet whenever Muslim folks want to do something and cite their religion, there isn't a problem.

It always bothers me when people say something shouldn't be done because of their faith when it's something they aren't having the churches forced into.

I don't see anything forcing Mormon churches to temple marry homosexual couples (and I'll agree that they should never be forced to) nor are straight people being forced into having a gay marriage because hetero marriage got suddenly banned. They just get to go down to a government office and get some paperwork and a speech from an official. I got married the same way.

Religious folk can still live exactly according to their beliefs. They just can't force those beliefs on others when it comes to marriage as a government issue because there are very specific things that are important when it comes to that.

And no, religion doesn't get people away with everything. Heck, a Muslim guy my husband worked with, said according to his faith felt it was improper for his female boss to tell him what to do and only a male superior could do it and he demanded they cater to his faith in that way. He was told that he needed to suck it up and deal with it or find a new job.

There have been countless cases in which a gay couple sued a religious company/person because they wouldn't marry them in their church or they refused to make their cake. So yes they are being forced to partake in gay marriage. Think about all the people that want to marry in a church. Gays want to marry in churches and of course there are A LOT of churches that don't want to do it.

I haven't personally heard of anyone suing a church demanding they be allowed to marry in it, and even if they did, I would support that being shot down. Show me the -laws- forcing official churches to marry gay couples on their property. A church is a church and that's not a two way street. It's exactly why I didn't marry in one because I have no business intruding on a place of faith that I'm not a full believer of and tell them to perform their ceremonies for me.

Only companies that offer a service for money that have no business discriminating can I see there being a problem. Honestly I think those are ridiculous. As I said, unless they are being forced to wed a gay person and be their homosexual spouse, you're not being comprimised by baking a wedding cake that they were paid money for.

I believe if a business is allowed to discriminate at that level, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. We all need to be background checked to make sure our morals specifically align with those of the company owner. If it doesn't, you are not allowed the service. So if someone disagrees with your religion because they are atheist and they think your choices are immoral, they would be allowed to refuse you service. If they dislike your political views because they consider them harmful, you'll be refused service and so on and so on.

Fair enough?

I see what you're saying but if its against someone's beliefs/religion I don't think they should be forced to do anything in support of gay marriage. Gay couples all over are suing. There was a very religious woman who owned her own neighborhood bakery and was hit with a lawsuit because she didn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding. If its against her religious beliefs, it isn't right to force her. We wouldn't force a Muslim to eat bacon.

The problem is that once they judge by one thing and passive-aggressively attack it by withholding their business, they become hypocrites. They are only judging one singular aspect while gladly serving others who may also be doing things greatly against their religious beliefs.

Like, for example, someone's faith being deeply against divorce quite gleefully catering someone's fifth wedding. If a business has the right to discriminate against customers, all I ask is that they be fair about it and make sure that every client is in line with their beliefs. If they aren't doing that, then all they are doing is using their faith to make a show of refusing service to only one thing they disagree with just because it's a hot button issue lately. It just becomes about making the couple trying to pay you for a service feel shamed or chastised.

They know just providing a paid service to a ceremony that is going to happen one way or another isn't going to somehow turn God against them. It won't turn them from their faith. And if they truly care, they can pray for the couple.

I seriously don't see doing your job as supporting anything. You're just working for a paycheck. If you own a mom and pop shop, you aren't supporting the life choices of every customer that makes a purchase. After all, according to Christianity at least, it is only up to God to judge if there's judgements to give.

"Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Romans 12:16-19

Perhaps she shouldn't be forced, maybe she should if we don't want ethical slippery slopes as far as businesses to occur. But if she were truly faithful, she shouldn't need to make a show of turning them away. She could have provided the service she was paid for and then prayed for them.

I don't agree with people turning their backs on so many of the good teachings among their beliefs that, though I may not be religious, I have a massive amount of respect for. And to me, this need to punish people by denying them as a customer flies in the face of the concept of loving thy neighbor and correcting with gentleness.

[SparkyKid3000]

Misty Moonsilver

I don't take well to being told what to do. I reply back because I feel like it.

That's nice. I don't see how this statement is even relevant since I did not command and/or force you to stop talking to me. By all means do as you please.

Misty Moonsilver

My arguments are valid to any American that doesn't want things forced down their throats. People complain about religion all the time being shoved down their throats but its okay if its the gay agenda.

No one is forcing you to accept gay marriage. You don't have to marry someone of the same sex nor do you have to like the fact that someone else is doing so. However, what you cannot do is deny someone else the right to marry someone else of the same sex and refuse to give legally married same-sex couples the same benefits heterosexual couples receive. It's all about equality. You can marry who you like and they can marry who they like as long as both parties are consenting adults. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

Misty Moonsilver

There are more than enough reasons to let states decide

You gave a few reasons and defended them poorly. Again, this is YOUR problem, not mine.

Misty Moonsilver

and here you are pretending as if I said gay people deserve to be murdered or hurt.

This was the first thing I addressed in my last post. This time it's your turn to go back and read.

[Shama_okami]

Has anyone else noticed that people who want religion in government, companies, school, ect do so only when it lines up with their beliefs?

[Ratttking]

Alexander J Luthor

Ratttking

Alexander J Luthor

Prince Ikari

Hearing that this could happen in the second most Christian state in this country pisses me off beyond belief! It has me shaking uncontrollably. I thought it was a joke. How the ******** could this happen??? I know the governor is definitely going to appeal this decision. Homosexuals deserve the worst of the worst for their disgusting and perverse way of life. God must find some country in which homosexuals will be punished for this. The now imprisonment of homosexuals in Uganda was certainly punishment for homosexuals doing what they did in New Mexico. Lord please punish these heathens one hundred times fold! Make Earth a living hell for them! They desecrate the sanctity of marriage and the sanctity of family and they are doing this and making a fool out of you in a place which is so devout to you. Please do not forsake the Christians in Utah who you know will be weeping greatly tonight.

Gaia ToS

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It would be fantastic if everyone could report the hell out of this a*****e.

Yeah, but then we'd have to report darn near everybody here who has ever expressed negative feelings towards any third parties, such as the suggestions we made regarding that Welsh child rapist. Just ignore Ikari like most of us do.

Damn! You're right. Well, we could argue that hate speech on this level should be intolerable, but according to people over in the Duck Dynasty thread this kind of thing is freedom of religion. I am so disappointed in Phil. I don't care if he was baited, you don't lump gays with bestiality and murderers.

Why not? All count as sins according to the Bible, but all sins can be forgiven. You don't have to believe in it yourself, but you don't get to dictate what Christians may believe.

[GunsmithKitten]

Shama_okami

Has anyone else noticed that people who want religion in government, companies, school, ect do so only when it lines up with their beliefs?

Hell, didn't you notice it when people started to want Islamic subjects taught in public school using the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS that the Christian fundies do, and the Fundies suddenly went all separation of church and state.

[Shama_okami]

GunsmithKitten

Shama_okami

Has anyone else noticed that people who want religion in government, companies, school, ect do so only when it lines up with their beliefs?

Hell, didn't you notice it when people started to want Islamic subjects taught in public school using the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS that the Christian fundies do, and the Fundies suddenly went all separation of church and state.

Oh, I've noticed it for years. I just think it needs to be pointed out from time to time. xp

[Misty Moonsilver]

SinivarAgain

Misty Moonsilver

SinivarAgain

Misty Moonsilver

SinivarAgain

It always bothers me when people say something shouldn't be done because of their faith when it's something they aren't having the churches forced into.

I don't see anything forcing Mormon churches to temple marry homosexual couples (and I'll agree that they should never be forced to) nor are straight people being forced into having a gay marriage because hetero marriage got suddenly banned. They just get to go down to a government office and get some paperwork and a speech from an official. I got married the same way.

Religious folk can still live exactly according to their beliefs. They just can't force those beliefs on others when it comes to marriage as a government issue because there are very specific things that are important when it comes to that.

And no, religion doesn't get people away with everything. Heck, a Muslim guy my husband worked with, said according to his faith felt it was improper for his female boss to tell him what to do and only a male superior could do it and he demanded they cater to his faith in that way. He was told that he needed to suck it up and deal with it or find a new job.

There have been countless cases in which a gay couple sued a religious company/person because they wouldn't marry them in their church or they refused to make their cake. So yes they are being forced to partake in gay marriage. Think about all the people that want to marry in a church. Gays want to marry in churches and of course there are A LOT of churches that don't want to do it.

I haven't personally heard of anyone suing a church demanding they be allowed to marry in it, and even if they did, I would support that being shot down. Show me the -laws- forcing official churches to marry gay couples on their property. A church is a church and that's not a two way street. It's exactly why I didn't marry in one because I have no business intruding on a place of faith that I'm not a full believer of and tell them to perform their ceremonies for me.

Only companies that offer a service for money that have no business discriminating can I see there being a problem. Honestly I think those are ridiculous. As I said, unless they are being forced to wed a gay person and be their homosexual spouse, you're not being comprimised by baking a wedding cake that they were paid money for.

I believe if a business is allowed to discriminate at that level, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. We all need to be background checked to make sure our morals specifically align with those of the company owner. If it doesn't, you are not allowed the service. So if someone disagrees with your religion because they are atheist and they think your choices are immoral, they would be allowed to refuse you service. If they dislike your political views because they consider them harmful, you'll be refused service and so on and so on.

Fair enough?

I see what you're saying but if its against someone's beliefs/religion I don't think they should be forced to do anything in support of gay marriage. Gay couples all over are suing. There was a very religious woman who owned her own neighborhood bakery and was hit with a lawsuit because she didn't want to bake a cake for a gay wedding. If its against her religious beliefs, it isn't right to force her. We wouldn't force a Muslim to eat bacon.

The problem is that once they judge by one thing and passive-aggressively attack it by withholding their business, they become hypocrites. They are only judging one singular aspect while gladly serving others who may also be doing things greatly against their religious beliefs.

Like, for example, someone's faith being deeply against divorce quite gleefully catering someone's fifth wedding. If a business has the right to discriminate against customers, all I ask is that they be fair about it and make sure that every client is in line with their beliefs. If they aren't doing that, then all they are doing is using their faith to make a show of refusing service to only one thing they disagree with just because it's a hot button issue lately. It just becomes about making the couple trying to pay you for a service feel shamed or chastised.

They know just providing a paid service to a ceremony that is going to happen one way or another isn't going to somehow turn God against them. It won't turn them from their faith. And if they truly care, they can pray for the couple.

I seriously don't see doing your job as supporting anything. You're just working for a paycheck. If you own a mom and pop shop, you aren't supporting the life choices of every customer that makes a purchase. After all, according to Christianity at least, it is only up to God to judge if there's judgements to give.

"Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Romans 12:16-19

Perhaps she shouldn't be forced, maybe she should if we don't want ethical slippery slopes as far as businesses to occur. But if she were truly faithful, she shouldn't need to make a show of turning them away. She could have provided the service she was paid for and then prayed for them.

I don't agree with people turning their backs on so many of the good teachings among their beliefs that, though I may not be religious, I have a massive amount of respect for. And to me, this need to punish people by denying them as a customer flies in the face of the concept of loving thy neighbor and correcting with gentleness.

Ha! You know, of all the arguments thrown at me, I think yours is the most sensible. I still think gay marriage is problematic in many ways especially when it comes to ignoring the cititzens' decisions and overturning their vote. I also think there are small differences between a large chain and a mom and pop shop that should allow mom and pop shops to follow their beliefs more closely, but I can most definitely understand what you mean.

[Alexander J Luthor]

Ratttking

Alexander J Luthor

Ratttking

Alexander J Luthor

Prince Ikari

Hearing that this could happen in the second most Christian state in this country pisses me off beyond belief! It has me shaking uncontrollably. I thought it was a joke. How the ******** could this happen??? I know the governor is definitely going to appeal this decision. Homosexuals deserve the worst of the worst for their disgusting and perverse way of life. God must find some country in which homosexuals will be punished for this. The now imprisonment of homosexuals in Uganda was certainly punishment for homosexuals doing what they did in New Mexico. Lord please punish these heathens one hundred times fold! Make Earth a living hell for them! They desecrate the sanctity of marriage and the sanctity of family and they are doing this and making a fool out of you in a place which is so devout to you. Please do not forsake the Christians in Utah who you know will be weeping greatly tonight.

Gaia ToS

Prohibited Conduct -- THE FOLLOWING CONDUCT IS PROHIBITED ON GAIAONLINE OR ANY ATTENDANT WEBSITES, FORUMS, GROUPS, GUILDS ETC, AND BY USING GAIA ONLINE YOU AGREE TO REFRAIN FROM ENGAGING IN ANY OF THE FOLLOWING. YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT IF YOU ENGAGE IN THE BELOW PROHIBITED CONDUCT OR VIOLATE THESE TERMS AND YOUR ACCOUNT IS THEREFORE TERMINATED YOU FORFEIT ANY AND ALL GAIA GOLD, GAIA CASH, VIRTUAL ITEMS AND ANY OTHER ITEMS OR RECORDS CONTAINED IN YOUR INVENTORY OR UNDER YOUR ACCOUNT:

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b. send, post, or make available pornographic, threatening, embarrassing, hateful, racially or ethnically insulting, deceptive, tortious, defamatory, libelous, or otherwise inappropriate or offensive content to other Gaia Members or Gaia;

It would be fantastic if everyone could report the hell out of this a*****e.

Yeah, but then we'd have to report darn near everybody here who has ever expressed negative feelings towards any third parties, such as the suggestions we made regarding that Welsh child rapist. Just ignore Ikari like most of us do.

Damn! You're right. Well, we could argue that hate speech on this level should be intolerable, but according to people over in the Duck Dynasty thread this kind of thing is freedom of religion. I am so disappointed in Phil. I don't care if he was baited, you don't lump gays with bestiality and murderers.

Why not? All count as sins according to the Bible, but all sins can be forgiven. You don't have to believe in it yourself, but you don't get to dictate what Christians may believe.

Just like Christians cannot dictate what other people do with their own orifices and/or legal matters. Sexuality should not affect your taxes, will and testament, medical emergencies, and the like.

[Misty Moonsilver]

SparkyKid3000

Misty Moonsilver

I don't take well to being told what to do. I reply back because I feel like it.

That's nice. I don't see how this statement is even relevant since I did not command and/or force you to stop talking to me. By all means do as you please.

Misty Moonsilver

My arguments are valid to any American that doesn't want things forced down their throats. People complain about religion all the time being shoved down their throats but its okay if its the gay agenda.

No one is forcing you to accept gay marriage. You don't have to marry someone of the same sex nor do you have to like the fact that someone else is doing so. However, what you cannot do is deny someone else the right to marry someone else of the same sex and refuse to give legally married same-sex couples the same benefits heterosexual couples receive. It's all about equality. You can marry who you like and they can marry who they like as long as both parties are consenting adults. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp?

Misty Moonsilver

There are more than enough reasons to let states decide

You gave a few reasons and defended them poorly. Again, this is YOUR problem, not mine.

Misty Moonsilver

and here you are pretending as if I said gay people deserve to be murdered or hurt.

This was the first thing I addressed in my last post. This time it's your turn to go back and read.

We are really just going in circles here. I don't think your arguments are strong either. You're telling me that every single state--regardless of their beliefs HAVE to allow gays to marry. Since you like to compare blacks to gays, then think about this--the slaves didn't like slavery. So a lot of them moved to places where slavery was illegal. Simple. But its unfair to force a religious state with a majority against gay marriage to allow it. The best way to make sure everyone is happy is to allow states to choose.

[Ratttking]

Alexander J Luthor

Ratttking

Alexander J Luthor

Ratttking

Alexander J Luthor

It would be fantastic if everyone could report the hell out of this a*****e.

Yeah, but then we'd have to report darn near everybody here who has ever expressed negative feelings towards any third parties, such as the suggestions we made regarding that Welsh child rapist. Just ignore Ikari like most of us do.

Damn! You're right. Well, we could argue that hate speech on this level should be intolerable, but according to people over in the Duck Dynasty thread this kind of thing is freedom of religion. I am so disappointed in Phil. I don't care if he was baited, you don't lump gays with bestiality and murderers.

Why not? All count as sins according to the Bible, but all sins can be forgiven. You don't have to believe in it yourself, but you don't get to dictate what Christians may believe.

Just like Christians cannot dictate what other people do with their own orifices and/or legal matters. Sexuality should not affect your taxes, will and testament, medical emergencies, and the like.

Neither should marriage.

[USS_Galactica]

Misty Moonsilver

We are really just going in circles here. I don't think your arguments are strong either. You're telling me that every single state--regardless of their beliefs HAVE to allow gays to marry. Since you like to compare blacks to gays, then think about this--the slaves didn't like slavery. So a lot of them moved to places where slavery was illegal. Simple. But its unfair to force a religious state with a majority against gay marriage to allow it. The best way to make sure everyone is happy is to allow states to choose.

Oh yes, simple. They just packed up their stuff in a U-haul and moved to another state. The word you are looking for is escaped, sometimes successfully, mostly unsuccessfully. At which point they were either whipped, maimed in some other way, or killed.

[Andy Partridge]

Ratttking

Alexander J Luthor

Ratttking

Alexander J Luthor

Ratttking

Yeah, but then we'd have to report darn near everybody here who has ever expressed negative feelings towards any third parties, such as the suggestions we made regarding that Welsh child rapist. Just ignore Ikari like most of us do.

Damn! You're right. Well, we could argue that hate speech on this level should be intolerable, but according to people over in the Duck Dynasty thread this kind of thing is freedom of religion. I am so disappointed in Phil. I don't care if he was baited, you don't lump gays with bestiality and murderers.

Why not? All count as sins according to the Bible, but all sins can be forgiven. You don't have to believe in it yourself, but you don't get to dictate what Christians may believe.

Just like Christians cannot dictate what other people do with their own orifices and/or legal matters. Sexuality should not affect your taxes, will and testament, medical emergencies, and the like.

Neither should marriage.

Nor should completely different discussions only brought up by irritating college libertarians derail threads from the point.

Misty Moonsilver

Since you like to compare blacks to gays, then think about this--the slaves didn't like slavery. So a lot of them moved to places where slavery was illegal. Simple.

ARE YOU ******** FOR REAL LOL

[Alexander J Luthor]

Ratttking

Neither should marriage.

At this point, I feel like we should just be able to walk into a courtroom and say "I, ____, do so wish that ____ should be involved with and, if the need should arise, in control of my financial, legal, and medical information." With a general contract in play for anyone who doesn't have a lawyer. I'd do that in a heartbeat because something tells me my family wouldn't have my best interest at heart if I fell into a coma.