Police Shoot Man Dead In Toronto : Abuse of Power?

[Caitian]

Byakugami

Lord Akhenaton

I would shoot to kill too if a hostile had a knife. I don't see any abuse here.

The police didn't have to shoot him which is the point.

They had alternative options to shooting. Had they waited a few seconds more they would have had the tazer. He was alone in a vehicle while the officers are outside, they can close and lock the doors from the outside.

Why do you think they had a few more seconds to wait? It's not entirely clear from the video, but it's likely that the man with the knife made a move to exit the vehicle. If so, the cops and everyone else in the area were in immediate danger.

How would they close and lock the doors without getting close enough to put themselves at risk? Are cops even trained on how to lock streetcar doors? I wouldn't know how to go about that, myself...

The nine shots plus tazer were very strange. I'll be interested to hear why they thought that was necessary. It's definitely a case to investigate. But I have no kneejerk reaction against the cops on this one. We're not talking about a guy with a stapler this time.

[Heimdalr]

Did they really think he would have the opportunity to lunge at them from several meters away, inside a streetcar? They're probably jumpy. Or sadists. Likely both.

[Byakugami]

Caitian

Byakugami

Lord Akhenaton

I would shoot to kill too if a hostile had a knife. I don't see any abuse here.

The police didn't have to shoot him which is the point.

They had alternative options to shooting. Had they waited a few seconds more they would have had the tazer. He was alone in a vehicle while the officers are outside, they can close and lock the doors from the outside.

Why do you think they had a few more seconds to wait? It's not entirely clear from the video, but it's likely that the man with the knife made a move to exit the vehicle. If so, the cops and everyone else in the area were in immediate danger.

How would they close and lock the doors without getting close enough to put themselves at risk? Are cops even trained on how to lock streetcar doors? I wouldn't know how to go about that, myself...

The nine shots plus tazer were very strange. I'll be interested to hear why they thought that was necessary. It's definitely a case to investigate. But I have no kneejerk reaction against the cops on this one. We're not talking about a guy with a stapler this time.

The transit driver remained on the scene, and there is a button on the exterior of a street car which allows you to close and lock the doors from the outside. For residents of my city, you can see streetcar drivers do it whenever they make a long stop to change drivers or use the restroom. They hop out of the vehicle, and push the button on the outside, closing the doors and locking the vehicle.

[Reverb Song]

Chahklet

My opinion... Don't be a criminal and expect no consequences. He obviously didn't give a ******** about anyone else life. Why should anyone care about his?

Sammy, was isolated on a street car and surrounded by cops who were still some how intimated that he had a knife, they shot him and he was down. They then decided to shoot him six more times. Analyst of the video said Sammy appeared to be overwhelmed, hands up.

Authorities are not meant to be vengeful and or destructive, especially on hypocrisy. My opinion is people with your mentally are far more dangerous, but it does not seem right or fair to shoot you down or disregard you for it.

Edited; I was overly rude in this reply. I apologize.

[Reverb Song]

Caitian

If so, the cops and everyone else in the area were in immediate danger.

Wow, you're right. Cops, especially in those numbers are only trained in shooting guns and using tazers. (That's poor sarcasm by the way and I would be shocked if it were demonstrated to be true)

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How would they close and lock the doors without getting close enough to put themselves at risk?

Two or more cops could of gotten on the vehicle without the concern you're exaggerating to make sure he stayed on the car. Cops are also trained and are suppose to be put themselves at risk generally, you have to demonstrate approaching the guy when armed is unreasonable risk.

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Are cops even trained on how to lock streetcar doors? I wouldn't know how to go about that, myself...

Well, here (in Totonto) there are ads demonstrating that TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) and Police assault is the same. This demonstrates a connection amongst the two and even as a civilian if people watch enough there are buttons between the doors or near the doors (at least for the subway)

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But I have no kneejerk reaction against the cops on this one. We're not talking about a guy with a stapler this time.

You should because they continue to shoot and taze when the kid was down. That should at least receive more backlash than you're giving it. It's also concerning that mostly everyone seem to think a knife cannot be restrained by a civilian alone, never-mind representatives licensed to carry arms.

[Reverb Song]

Lord Akhenaton

I would shoot to kill too if a hostile had a knife. I don't see any abuse here.

Do you have any idea the s**t that comes from your direction? The man did not warrant a threat enough for shoot to kill because he simply had a knife. If the police are going to get that flustered when they're trying to contain some one with a knife when they have training and guns, no one should feel safe. Anyway, they shot him and you and others in this thread ignored or did not read they also shot him six times and tazed him when he was down.

[Reverb Song]

Old Blue Collar Joe

Scarred Secrets

Alexander J Luthor

Why the hell would they taze him AFTER pumping him full of lead?

...maybe they were trying to get an overkill bonus?

*sigh* From what I've read, the kid should have never been shot at. Aren't police taught how to disarm someone brandishing a knife? I mean...it was a knife and he had no hostage, they coulda just tased him to begin with...not after they already shot him 9 times. :/

Errr...you do NOT engage someone with a weapon, especially a knife, in hand to hand. Within 21 feet he can close the distance quite rapidly, and once he lunges, you have a split second to decide what to do.
If the dumb ******** didn't want to get shot, he should have stayed home and jacked off. Instead, he got his dumb a** shot.

This just demonstrates authorities may need more training in hand to hand, not that they shouldn't do it.

And what a stupid argument, "Dumb a** kid shouldn't off gotten a car if he didn't want to be in a car accident".....That's literally the line of logic you just presented in the bottom half of your reply.
You also dodge and seem to ignore that the kid was outnumbered and then was shot and tazed after he already been shot.

Maybe you should jerk off instead of debate. lol

[Caitian]

Byakugami

The transit driver remained on the scene, and there is a button on the exterior of a street car which allows you to close and lock the doors from the outside. For residents of my city, you can see streetcar drivers do it whenever they make a long stop to change drivers or use the restroom. They hop out of the vehicle, and push the button on the outside, closing the doors and locking the vehicle.

Cool, I was unaware there is an exterior control to lock these things. In that case it's pretty hard to say this situation wasn't mismanaged from the beginning.

Reverb Song

Quote:

But I have no kneejerk reaction against the cops on this one. We're not talking about a guy with a stapler this time.

You should because they continue to shoot and taze when the kid was down. That should at least receive more backlash than you're giving it. It's also concerning that mostly everyone seem to think a knife cannot be restrained by a civilian alone, never-mind representatives licensed to carry arms.

Didn't I say the repeated shooting was a concern worth investigating? I'd just personally want to hear the cops' justification before I start marching in the street.

And, no, I don't think the cops should have come up to the guy and tried to wrestle the knife from him. That's a good way to make the situation worse. Training doesn't make anyone invincible. Containing him until a tazer was on hand would be a much better approach.

[Byakugami]

Caitian

Byakugami

The transit driver remained on the scene, and there is a button on the exterior of a street car which allows you to close and lock the doors from the outside. For residents of my city, you can see streetcar drivers do it whenever they make a long stop to change drivers or use the restroom. They hop out of the vehicle, and push the button on the outside, closing the doors and locking the vehicle.

Cool, I was unaware there is an exterior control to lock these things. In that case it's pretty hard to say this situation wasn't mismanaged from the beginning.

Reverb Song

Quote:

But I have no kneejerk reaction against the cops on this one. We're not talking about a guy with a stapler this time.

You should because they continue to shoot and taze when the kid was down. That should at least receive more backlash than you're giving it. It's also concerning that mostly everyone seem to think a knife cannot be restrained by a civilian alone, never-mind representatives licensed to carry arms.

Didn't I say the repeated shooting was a concern worth investigating? I'd just personally want to hear the cops' justification before I start marching in the street.

And, no, I don't think the cops should have come up to the guy and tried to wrestle the knife from him. That's a good way to make the situation worse. Training doesn't make anyone invincible. Containing him until a tazer was on hand would be a much better approach.

Unfortunately you most likely won't be getting a good investigation into this incident and the officer who fired is most likely going to remain tight lipped.

As I added to my opening post,officers and the police force do not have to cooperate with investigations into their actions and its even found that any amount of co-operation is usually rare.

[Reverb Song]

Chahklet

Uhm, so we should wait until he actually kills someone

No one other then driver was on the street car when he was addressed and no one is saying they should of done nothing. They had options, shooting to kill in this case should of been the last regardless if this kid was careless of others.

And logically, it's a knife, not a machete. People are not as helpless as they act and the cops definitely not that helpless or at risk.

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stopping him beforehand?

To be fair, shooting is not that bad, shooting to kill in this case was questionable because he was not holding a weapon that could go off in response to pain, but whatever, maybe there are serious reasons for that. Shooting and tazing when he was dead?....No excuse for that, at all.

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And I still don't understand why anyone should care about him if he doesn't care about others.

Because people are needed to produce good products, services, communication, employment and generally a decent, operating society and for humanity and compassion sake, people may not actually be that dangerous (take a Law and Psychology class, please) . In this case, Sammy just graduated High School and he was going to attend George Brown College, this indicates he had some "worth" in trying to save and If this kid was even that much of a threat, reforming him would of been better then just killing him.

Eye for an eye ideology applied this broadly or unreasonably makes for worse situations and environments. That's why.


Edited; Unneeded rudeness in this reply.

[jamilee-nicole]

I can understand the force if he was threatening people with a knife. . . but shot nine time THEN tazed? Why not get him with the tazer to start with instead? I usually side with the cops on these sort of issues, but in this situation I actually think they did wrong. It helps that the kid only had a knife and not a gun. If it were a gun, obviously I wouldn't fault the cops, since a nut with a gun could easily kill people very quickly from a distance rather than try to attack one person at a time at close range like he would with a knife.

[Reverb Song]

Caitian

Didn't I say the repeated shooting was a concern worth investigating? I'd just personally want to hear the cops' justification before I start marching in the street.

That's the thing my, dear. Justification for shooting? Sure. Justification for shooting and tazing when dead or down? Absolutely none. What excuse could there be for that other then their first shoot was askew and the kid in question was indeed hostile.

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And, no, I don't think the cops should have come up to the guy and tried to wrestle the knife from him.

I didn't mention anything from trying to get the knife if they entered the vehicle. I suggested it so they could increase chances of having him stay on the vehicle. If they needed to apply force they would of been able to in the vehicle, from the public therefore even eliminating all possibilities from others being hurt. The driver would of been able to exit instead of being stuck with this terrifying knife wielding man.

Exited; The driver was still on the scene, not necessarily on the streetcar.

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That's a good way to make the situation worse.

Thank god that's not what I said or meant.

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Training doesn't make anyone invincible.

Obviously there's going to be causalities in authority and civilian conflicts in general, that should be expected. By that logic and or argument, shoot to kill should be applied more often because no one is invincible or things could get worse.

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Containing him until a tazer was on hand would be a much better approach.

Containing him would of been making sure his a** stayed on the streetcar which means they should of went on and if they couldn't do that making more pf solid surrounding or circle should of happened. But it didn't, this did and I'm not really arguing that should not of shot the kid, I'm arguing they definitely shouldn't of shot the kid six times then taze. That reasonably makes the police look suspicious or questionable.

[David2074]

Chahklet

My opinion... Don't be a criminal and expect no consequences. He obviously didn't give a ******** about anyone else life. Why should anyone care about his?

I'll start by saying I agree that lawbreakers should realize there is risk associated with their actions and accept that. It does not mean they deserved to die. It's a shame to kill someone who maybe just needed his medication. He could have held a knife at some woman's throat or something - sounds like he didn't. So maybe it was just a sad cry for attention.

IMO there is an even bigger reason for following procedures. Not every suspected criminal is actually a criminal. So look at it from the angle of would you want the cops to shoot you for doing absolutely nothing? Sure, this particular guy was obviously breaking the law. No argument there. But that is not always the case. Do you remember some months back when the cops in (I forgot which state) were trying to catch that cop killer who was headed for the hills? They shot and injured two women WHILE THEY WERE SITTING IN THEIR PICKUP because they mistakenly thought that was the pickup of the cop killer even though it was a different color / different license plate. I believe I also read that same morning (almost the same time) they shot some other guy's vehicle for the same reason but at least that guy was not injured - just his truck.

Those people were not law breakers. They were not even at a 'crime scene'. Their only crime was being in the same town as those over zealous cops. Situations like that are a good argument for reining in trigger happy cops.

[Chahklet]

Reverb Song

Chahklet

Uhm, so we should wait until he actually kills someone

No one other then driver was on the street car when he was addressed and no one is saying they should of done nothing. They had options, shooting to kill in this case should of been the last regardless if this kid was careless of others.

And logically, it's a knife, not a machete. People are not as helpless as they act and the cops definitely not that helpless or at risk.

Quote:

stopping him beforehand?

To be fair, shooting is not that bad, shooting to kill in this case was questionable because he was not holding a weapon that could go off in response to pain, but whatever, maybe there are serious reasons for that. Shooting and tazing when he was dead?....No excuse for that, at all.

Quote:

And I still don't understand why anyone should care about him if he doesn't care about others.

Because people are needed to produce good products, services, communication, employment and generally a decent, operating society and for humanity and compassion sake, people may not actually be that dangerous (take a Law and Psychology class, please) . In this case, Sammy just graduated High School and he was going to attend George Brown College, this indicates he had some "worth" in trying to save and If this kid was even that much of a threat, reforming him would of been better then just killing him.

Eye for an eye ideology applied this broadly or unreasonably makes for worse situations and environments. That's why.


Edited; Unneeded rudeness in this reply.

I see your point, but police are not psychologists.

[LaKajira Neko]

The police should have shot to disable the suspect if there was a threat of danger to the officer. They did not need to kill the person with the knife. But I am sure it will be ruled a justifiable homicide., as always by the review board.