Hamas offers Israel 10 conditions for a 10 year truce

[Mei tsuki7]

Keltoi Samurai

Mei tsuki7

Keltoi Samurai

Mei tsuki7

Keltoi Samurai

Mei tsuki7

Why is it that any anti-Israel claims need to be backed up but not anti-Palestine ones?

Ok, see this right here? This is why you aren't worth listening to. Not because you're inherently wrong, but because you're not willing to entertain the notion that people need more than your word to be convinced to your side, and treat any request for information as an attack.

When you're ready to source your arguments, I'll be here, ready to listen to them.

My point is that you never ask pro-Israel people to source anything which is hypocritical of you. I have also given any sources to you in the past that have been ignored.

How about this. You give me the exact points you want me to source AND give me sources for all the arguments I'll list below and then I'll get you sources.

1. Prove that all of the sites bombed by Israel are militant targets.
2. Prove that Israel always gives warning and adequate time to leave before striking.
3. Prove that Hamas currently uses human shields.
4. Prove that Hamas broke the recent ceasefires.
5. Prove that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are not illegal.
6. Prove that Hamas was firing rockets into Israel.

I could go on but I think that's enough for now.

1, 2 and 5 were not points I've made at any point.

If I provide sources on the remainder, the ones I've actually argued, will that be good enough to get some sources out of you?

Wait, so you admit that Israel is bombing civilian targets, that the don't always give adequate warning and that the West Bank settlements are illegal and you STILL side with them 100%?

Yes about the sources. Though I would like to know the exact points I need to find sources for.

I admit no such thing, I merely am stating that I've not argued those particular points.

There's a difference between saying "I don't know enough about that particular issue to make any kind of informed comment" and "oh, yeah, that's definitely what's going on"

Okay. Just a quick question. What would it actually take to change your mind on this? I don't even mean becoming completely pro-Palestinian. Just becoming not so pro-Israel.

[Mei tsuki7]

God Emperor Baldur

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

Preferably the one that does not have universal healthcare, universal suffrage, a large amount of money going into education or a secular government that doesn't follow an imaginary friend.

That would disqualify BOTH groups.

How does it disqualify Israel? neutral

Israel is not secular. And as I also said to Keltoi, you're ignoring the reason why Palestine does not have most of those things which is the fault of Israel's suppression of trade and even aid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Israel

Israel is not governed by any Jewish Synagogue and in parliament, there are people in there who are Muslim. A fun little fact you willingly left out. It is you who is ignoring the reasons why Palestine would continue to lack those features in their society. When we talk about an Islamic state, that usually involves a brutal monarch who whores all of the country's wealth. No women's rights, no suffrage at all really, no free healthcare, no daycare, little resources for education, the list goes on.

Except for the fact that Palestine is a democracy that has more freedom than Jordan, Syria and even Egypt.

Also, again, Israel doesn't even have civil marriage. Plus you're missing the fact that they are are Jewish state and hold to Jewish law. That is the entire POINT of Israel's existance.

Lastly, Israel is mainly at fault for the lack of resources in Palestine seeing ares they have a blockade in place and sometimes don't even allow aid to pass. How is a country that isn't even allowed to trade or have an airport supposed to prosper?

[Mei tsuki7]

God Emperor Baldur

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#2001.E2.80.9306

So basically, despite the blockade and the fact that it's difficult for Palestinians to get even refrigerators without smuggling through tunnels, somehow Hamas managed to smuggle a Katyusha rocket launcher into Gaza.

Yeah, that bodes well for that "plan" of yours.

The alternative is killing them all I guess

I really don't understand how you can advocate killing children.

Never seen the Second Godfather, I take it?

What does that have to do with anything?

[God Emperor Baldur]

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#2001.E2.80.9306

So basically, despite the blockade and the fact that it's difficult for Palestinians to get even refrigerators without smuggling through tunnels, somehow Hamas managed to smuggle a Katyusha rocket launcher into Gaza.

Yeah, that bodes well for that "plan" of yours.

The alternative is killing them all I guess

I really don't understand how you can advocate killing children.

Never seen the Second Godfather, I take it?

What does that have to do with anything?

In the beginning the Don explains why he can't spare children because they grow up to be vengeful and therefore a threat.

[Mei tsuki7]

God Emperor Baldur

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

The alternative is killing them all I guess

I really don't understand how you can advocate killing children.

Never seen the Second Godfather, I take it?

What does that have to do with anything?

In the beginning the Don explains why he can't spare children because they grow up to be vengeful and therefore a threat.

So you have an ends justify the means type of ideal about the world?

That's also an extreme generalization btw.

[Omnileech]

God Emperor Baldur

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

The alternative is killing them all I guess

I really don't understand how you can advocate killing children.

Never seen the Second Godfather, I take it?

What does that have to do with anything?

In the beginning the Don explains why he can't spare children because they grow up to be vengeful and therefore a threat.

Really? You get your life advice from fictional characters from fictional stories?

[Perilous Shade]

kiironobara

MegaTurkey

Boudica Tlalli

What are the chances of Israel saying no to it?

Considering they just did this? Probably a lot.

Yeah, that doesn't violate international law or anything like that...

BBC News says they did it because Hamas had a bunch of anti tank missiles nearby. Not that it's okay to blow up a hospital or anything. I'm just saying since the news says Hamas is telling civilians to stay near missile targets while Israel is telling people to evacuate. Given the situation, it could have been the intent of Hamas to have those missiles right next to a hospital for this very reason.

[kiironobara]

Enlightened Despot

kiironobara

MegaTurkey

Boudica Tlalli

What are the chances of Israel saying no to it?

Considering they just did this? Probably a lot.

Yeah, that doesn't violate international law or anything like that...

BBC News says they did it because Hamas had a bunch of anti tank missiles nearby. Not that it's okay to blow up a hospital or anything. I'm just saying since the news says Hamas is telling civilians to stay near missile targets while Israel is telling people to evacuate. Given the situation, it could have been the intent of Hamas to have those missiles right next to a hospital for this very reason.

Yes, but the owner of the hospital had let Israeli soldiers inspect it and it was cleared. Collateral damage is sick.

[Perilous Shade]

kiironobara

Enlightened Despot

kiironobara

MegaTurkey

Boudica Tlalli

What are the chances of Israel saying no to it?

Considering they just did this? Probably a lot.

Yeah, that doesn't violate international law or anything like that...

BBC News says they did it because Hamas had a bunch of anti tank missiles nearby. Not that it's okay to blow up a hospital or anything. I'm just saying since the news says Hamas is telling civilians to stay near missile targets while Israel is telling people to evacuate. Given the situation, it could have been the intent of Hamas to have those missiles right next to a hospital for this very reason.

Yes, but the owner of the hospital had let Israeli soldiers inspect it and it was cleared. Collateral damage is sick.

The missiles weren't located in the hospital, but apparently they were somewhere near it. It's really horrible that this happened though.

[kiironobara]

Enlightened Despot

kiironobara

Enlightened Despot

kiironobara

MegaTurkey

Boudica Tlalli

What are the chances of Israel saying no to it?

Considering they just did this? Probably a lot.

Yeah, that doesn't violate international law or anything like that...

BBC News says they did it because Hamas had a bunch of anti tank missiles nearby. Not that it's okay to blow up a hospital or anything. I'm just saying since the news says Hamas is telling civilians to stay near missile targets while Israel is telling people to evacuate. Given the situation, it could have been the intent of Hamas to have those missiles right next to a hospital for this very reason.

Yes, but the owner of the hospital had let Israeli soldiers inspect it and it was cleared. Collateral damage is sick.

The missiles weren't located in the hospital, but apparently they were somewhere near it. It's really horrible that this happened though.

I know. sad The hospital became collateral damage.

[God Emperor Baldur]

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

Mei tsuki7

God Emperor Baldur

The alternative is killing them all I guess

I really don't understand how you can advocate killing children.

Never seen the Second Godfather, I take it?

What does that have to do with anything?

In the beginning the Don explains why he can't spare children because they grow up to be vengeful and therefore a threat.

So you have an ends justify the means type of ideal about the world?

That's also an extreme generalization btw.

Ideal? My ideal situation is to not have war. But in reality, we have a situation where this one country is getting attacked and yet they don't have the right to remove that threat? Imagine if San Diego got shelled by rockets from Tijuana. There would be an immediate invasion and destruction of Mexico.

[God Emperor Baldur]

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

The alternative is killing them all I guess

And now we're back to you discussing ethnic cleansing as an option.

Have any better ideas than my trade restriction plan?

Yeah. Israel stop oppressing the Palestinians and honor the territorial map originally created by the UN, which they have violated consistently, for starters.

Except that isn't possible. Peace is a luxury. A kind of luxury that not everyone has.

So you're immediately rejecting a solution based on some idea that Palestinians don't deserve peace?

Please, tell me why it isn't possible.

It's not that they don't deserve peace. It's that they do not want peace. If they wanted peace, then maybe they shouldn't have sent rockets towards or suicide bombed Israel.

[kiironobara]

God Emperor Baldur

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

Have any better ideas than my trade restriction plan?

Yeah. Israel stop oppressing the Palestinians and honor the territorial map originally created by the UN, which they have violated consistently, for starters.

Except that isn't possible. Peace is a luxury. A kind of luxury that not everyone has.

So you're immediately rejecting a solution based on some idea that Palestinians don't deserve peace?

Please, tell me why it isn't possible.

It's not that they don't deserve peace. It's that they do not want peace. If they wanted peace, then maybe they shouldn't have sent rockets towards or suicide bombed Israel.

You are, once again, using that short-cut of conflating Hamas with ordinary Palestinians to avoid critical thinking.

And you are forgetting there are also Zionists who would rather see all Palestinians dead. A hard-core Israeli parliament member actually said Palestinian women should be targeted so they don't give birth to any more "little snakes".

Which sounds suspiciously like the rhetoric in Rwanda leading up to the genocide there.

[God Emperor Baldur]

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

Have any better ideas than my trade restriction plan?

Yeah. Israel stop oppressing the Palestinians and honor the territorial map originally created by the UN, which they have violated consistently, for starters.

Except that isn't possible. Peace is a luxury. A kind of luxury that not everyone has.

So you're immediately rejecting a solution based on some idea that Palestinians don't deserve peace?

Please, tell me why it isn't possible.

It's not that they don't deserve peace. It's that they do not want peace. If they wanted peace, then maybe they shouldn't have sent rockets towards or suicide bombed Israel.

You are, once again, using that short-cut of conflating Hamas with ordinary Palestinians to avoid critical thinking.

And how do you know what the ordinary Palestinian feels? They did vote them in after all.

[kiironobara]

God Emperor Baldur

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

kiironobara

God Emperor Baldur

Except that isn't possible. Peace is a luxury. A kind of luxury that not everyone has.

So you're immediately rejecting a solution based on some idea that Palestinians don't deserve peace?

Please, tell me why it isn't possible.

It's not that they don't deserve peace. It's that they do not want peace. If they wanted peace, then maybe they shouldn't have sent rockets towards or suicide bombed Israel.

You are, once again, using that short-cut of conflating Hamas with ordinary Palestinians to avoid critical thinking.

And how do you know what the ordinary Palestinian feels? They did vote them in after all.

Only about 50% did and then Hamas seized control, or did you manage to miss that part of this thread?

And you are forgetting there are also Zionists who would rather see all Palestinians dead. A hard-core Israeli parliament member actually said Palestinian women should be targeted so they don't give birth to any more "little snakes".

Which sounds suspiciously like the rhetoric in Rwanda leading up to the genocide there. Israelis voted her in, so they must not want peace and be on the side of genocide, too.