Pack Prices...

What Are You?

I'm a "Mighty"	56.0%	[ 14 ]
I'm a "Jones"	44.0%	[ 11 ]
Total Votes:			[ 25 ]

[Erogenous Jones]

Elf King Alberic

hmm I also think that this game shouldn't be a "play to get cards" game but rather a "get cards to play game" and dont honestly think that just because someone has all the cards means that they will stop playing,

Thing is, if I might harken back to the "are you a Jones, or are you a Mighty" analogy, some people are goal-oriented (Joneses) and some are more process-oriented, (Mightys).

There's no question that I enjoy playing HoC, but as someone is is unabashedly goal-oriented, if there's a goal to be achieved in pretty much anything, then that is my principle focus.
You might as well ask me to change my skin colour as to change that facet of my personality, because it's every bit as hard-coded into me.

The trouble with Joneses is that, being goal-driven, we need to be able to feel that a goal is attainable in order to draw satisfaction from the endeavour.
If we perceive a goal to be unattainable, then we're likely to become frustrated by our failure and move on to something that we perceive as offering a possibility for what we view as success.

I'm not going to argue the virtues or short-comings of either personality type, because both have their pluses and minuses. I'm just saying that the existence of Joneses and Mightys is a basic fact of human nature.

The question of which, if either type should be the one which Gaia tries to cater to is probably dependent on which type represents the largest percentage of people playing HoC, although I think the best solution to any problem tends to lie somewhere in the mushy middle, and that's why I'd like to see Pack prices more closely represent their drop rates.
To my way of thinking, doing that would at least provide the perception that my goals were within reach, while still making them suffciently challenging to keep it fun and interesting.

[Erogenous Jones]

Erynnis_Tristis

Gavyn the Mighty

In your arguments, you are blatantly ignoring the fact that a marketplace will be out.

I'm not blatantly ignoring anything, I know the marketplace is supposed to be introduced. It's completely irrelevent to the discussion at hand. I would point out that years of experience dealing with virtual marketplaces on Gaia has taught me one thing, 90% of everything is crap and the other 10% is more than most people can afford. The marketplace isn't going to be an endless source of rare cards, since quantities are still going to be determined by pack odds. I think people are overestimating the impact the market will have, in the short term at least.

I agree with Eryn on this one.
The arrival of the Marketplace is probably anything but imminent, and even when it does open, I don't see it being the solution to the problem of getting Epics and Legendarys into people's hands.

The way I see it, the soul purpose of Essence is, for the moment anyway, to buy Cards.
Why would someone sell a Card in order to get Essence, when the only reason to gather Essence is to hopefully get that card in the first place?
When the MP does finally open, there will most likely be a very small supply of any Epic or Legendary, and those that there are will most likely be priced well beyond the reach of all but the richest/most hard-core of players, thereby adding yet another layer of frustration for the average Joe to contend with.
Basically, I see the MP, in the beginning at least, being the exclusive playground of the rich as those who have had either the time, or good fortune to aquire the best Cards trade amongst themselves while the rest are relegated to continuing to farm for Essence in the hopes of beating the odds.

I admit that I can't see the future, but all you have to do to confirm my supposition is to look at the existing Gaia MP.
I've been here three years, and owning Lucky the Cat is still the wildest of pipe dreams.

[K76]

What about the odds of getting a 4 star or better? Or 5 star? Perhaps it balances out there. I looked for your drop rate thread but didn't find it.

For anyone still dissatisfied with overall drop rates, quit. I did. If they can butcher drop rates without losing players, of course they're going to. That makes cash packs more attractive.

[Gavyn the Mighty]

The marketplace is scheduled to be out in 3 months. In terms of the game's probably lifetime (and in terms of that prior mentioned 600 days) that is imminent and will have an effect.

With regards to the gaian marketplace and over inflation... keep in mind... the normal marketplace... there are thousands and thousands of items... and a ton of ways to make a ton of gold... hence a ton of inflation with all of the gold going to a ton of things... that is what makes the items unreachable.

In HoC, there is one method of essence gain, by playing the game... there is also very limited possible cards to gain (87 currently), as opposed to those thousands of items; i.e. the 4* and 5* are going to be much more common than the 'unattainable' items in the main marketplace. Inflation will not be nearly as bad in Hoc because of the lack of a large in flux of currency and a limited card set (meaning a lot of people will have what you are looking for. it is simple supply and demand with a structured (comparatively speaking) currency influx.

So yes, by ignoring the fact that the marketplace will have a reducing impact on the overall cost of 4* and 5* as well as allowing for ease of accessibility... it has to be accounted for when saying it will take 'such and such amount of days to possibly get a card'.

Guys, seriously... if there is a thread or a post around here that you don't like... leave it be. Spreading hate and trolling people has no place in this community. Certain people may have been in the wrong, but when you troll or hate on them you get in the wrong too. Don't prolong it or add to it; let it go. If it is blatant trolling, a misplaced thread or anything that violates the ToS, report it and move along. Don't feed the trolls and don't add to the hatred. This is a nice, clean and happy community. Please, don't dirty it.

I am Gavyn the Mighty and I approve of this message.

[Junett]

Erogenous Jones

I don't wish to bother Pan about something like that. I'd rather the dev team focus on I dunno, fixing game freezing glitches. I still do not see why so much complaints about the new packs. As I stated before, I do not see any problems with them and I think the changes and prices are fair and well deserved.

I really do not understand all the complaints everytime something changes. Why not be thankful for the changes to the game instead of complaining to the devs all the time?

[Erogenous Jones]

Gavyn the Mighty

The marketplace is scheduled to be out in 3 months. In terms of the game's probably lifetime (and in terms of that prior mentioned 600 days) that is imminent and will have an effect.

With regards to the gaian marketplace and over inflation... keep in mind... the normal marketplace... there are thousands and thousands of items... and a ton of ways to make a ton of gold... hence a ton of inflation with all of the gold going to a ton of things... that is what makes the items unreachable.

In HoC, there is one method of essence gain, by playing the game... there is also very limited possible cards to gain (87 currently), as opposed to those thousands of items; i.e. the 4* and 5* are going to be much more common than the 'unattainable' items in the main marketplace. Inflation will not be nearly as bad in Hoc because of the lack of a large in flux of currency and a limited card set (meaning a lot of people will have what you are looking for. it is simple supply and demand with a structured (comparatively speaking) currency influx.

So yes, by ignoring the fact that the marketplace will have a reducing impact on the overall cost of 4* and 5* as well as allowing for ease of accessibility... it has to be accounted for when saying it will take 'such and such amount of days to possibly get a card'.

Guys, seriously... if there is a thread or a post around here that you don't like... leave it be. Spreading hate and trolling people has no place in this community. Certain people may have been in the wrong, but when you troll or hate on them you get in the wrong too. Don't prolong it or add to it; let it go. If it is blatant trolling, a misplaced thread or anything that violates the ToS, report it and move along. Don't feed the trolls and don't add to the hatred. This is a nice, clean and happy community. Please, don't dirty it.

I am Gavyn the Mighty and I approve of this message.

LOL!
This is yet another excellent example of our different, almost diametrically opposed, perspectives on identical issues. xp
The way I see it, the only thing that keeps prices to even a minimal level of insanity on the main site MP is the fact that there's thousands and thousands of Items for people to want.
In the HoC MP, there will be a very limited number of "in-demand" Items, and a very small supply of each of those.
Supply and Demand will, from my perspective, virtually guarantee that the prices for those "in-demand" Items will be well beyond the reach of the average player.
As I've always said, there are always going to be people who, for whatever reason can, and do play for hours and hours every day, and their impact on any MP scenario cannot be underestimated or overstated.
While the average player may make 5,000 Essence on an average day, there are those who easily haul in 10 times that amount, and their numbers are not inconsiderable.
As soon as you introduce a small, but influential element into a Supply and Demand scenario, the price of that limited supply will be dictated by those who can afford to pay what the market will bear.

Like I keep saying, I'm a Jones, you're a Mighty, and our world views are polar opposites.
Also as I've said, only time will tell which of our world views proves accurate.

I can hardly wait! blaugh


***EDIT*** In the interest of establishing what the predominant personality type is here (and because I thought it was funny xp ), I've added a Poll. wink

[Gavyn the Mighty]

Erogenous Jones

Gavyn the Mighty

The marketplace is scheduled to be out in 3 months. In terms of the game's probably lifetime (and in terms of that prior mentioned 600 days) that is imminent and will have an effect.

With regards to the gaian marketplace and over inflation... keep in mind... the normal marketplace... there are thousands and thousands of items... and a ton of ways to make a ton of gold... hence a ton of inflation with all of the gold going to a ton of things... that is what makes the items unreachable.

In HoC, there is one method of essence gain, by playing the game... there is also very limited possible cards to gain (87 currently), as opposed to those thousands of items; i.e. the 4* and 5* are going to be much more common than the 'unattainable' items in the main marketplace. Inflation will not be nearly as bad in Hoc because of the lack of a large in flux of currency and a limited card set (meaning a lot of people will have what you are looking for. it is simple supply and demand with a structured (comparatively speaking) currency influx.

So yes, by ignoring the fact that the marketplace will have a reducing impact on the overall cost of 4* and 5* as well as allowing for ease of accessibility... it has to be accounted for when saying it will take 'such and such amount of days to possibly get a card'.

Guys, seriously... if there is a thread or a post around here that you don't like... leave it be. Spreading hate and trolling people has no place in this community. Certain people may have been in the wrong, but when you troll or hate on them you get in the wrong too. Don't prolong it or add to it; let it go. If it is blatant trolling, a misplaced thread or anything that violates the ToS, report it and move along. Don't feed the trolls and don't add to the hatred. This is a nice, clean and happy community. Please, don't dirty it.

I am Gavyn the Mighty and I approve of this message.

LOL!
This is yet another excellent example of our different, almost diametrically opposed, perspectives on identical issues. xp
The way I see it, the only thing that keeps prices to even a minimal level of insanity on the main site MP is the fact that there's thousands and thousands of Items for people to want.
In the HoC MP, there will be a very limited number of "in-demand" Items, and a very small supply of each of those.
Supply and Demand will, from my perspective, virtually guarantee that the prices for those "in-demand" Items will be well beyond the reach of the average player.
As I've always said, there are always going to be people who, for whatever reason can, and do play for hours and hours every day, and their impact on any MP scenario cannot be underestimated or overstated.
While the average player may make 5,000 Essence on an average day, there are those who easily haul in 10 times that amount, and their numbers are not inconsiderable.
As soon as you introduce a small, but influential element into a Supply and Demand scenario, the price of that limited supply will be dictated by those who can afford to pay what the market will bear.

Like I keep saying, I'm a Jones, you're a Mighty, and our world views are polar opposites.
Also as I've said, only time will tell which of our world views proves accurate.

I can hardly wait! blaugh


***EDIT*** In the interest of establishing what the predominant personality type is here (and because I thought it was funny xp ), I've added a Poll. wink

Those players whom haul in 'ten times that daily 5000' are most likely very high level by now, and have bought a ton of packs (save xBillehx), and have most of the cards (and a ton of multiples)... so they won't be in the market to the extent of buying rare cards for really high, they will be more of sellers (IMO) outside of wanting to get that one or two cards they are missing.

For those individuals, the marketplace will more be to complete their collections, instead of getting cards to finish their decks (because there is a much higher probability that their decks are already finished, so to speak). sure, they will want 4* and 5* cards... but they will also have 4* and 5* to sell because they are some of the people who've put the most essence into buying and have 'stockpiled' cards. there also wouldn't be a need for them to vastly overprice things to gain more essence.... because there is nothing more to use essence on (and there is a cap on the exchange rate to gold if you really wanted to go that route).

Simply put, the relatively high supply will be roughly equal with the demand, IMO, and it will keep prices from going out of control; mainly since there is a limited number of different items and a lot of people will have certain cards.

[xBillehx]

Gavyn the Mighty

Those players whom haul in 'ten times that daily 5000' are most likely very high level by now, and have bought a ton of packs (save xBillehx), and have most of the cards (and a ton of multiples)... so they won't be in the market to the extent of buying rare cards for really high, they will be more of sellers (IMO) outside of wanting to get that one or two cards they are missing.

_________________________

But....I have bought a ton of packs! sad

_________________________

[Gavyn the Mighty]

xBillehx

Gavyn the Mighty

Those players whom haul in 'ten times that daily 5000' are most likely very high level by now, and have bought a ton of packs (save xBillehx), and have most of the cards (and a ton of multiples)... so they won't be in the market to the extent of buying rare cards for really high, they will be more of sellers (IMO) outside of wanting to get that one or two cards they are missing.

_________________________

But....I have bought a ton of packs! sad

_________________________

Sorry, I was half asleep. That mention was supposed to be after the 'have most cards' part... because I know there is still quite a few cards you don't have that you want.

[TigerLilyChick]

The high price of the gold packs is the reason why I stopped buying packs.

[Only Gray]

luhft

You're making sense. I've been buying silvers based on the results so far.

25/85 = 29.41% chance for rare or better in silver.
114/166 = 68.67% chance for rare or better in gold. <---not three times the value of silver.

When you take the sellback values into consideration, gold packs look even worse. It's true that gold packs appear to have a much higher rate of cards above 3, but I don't know if that justifies the extra cost.

The sample size is still pretty small, though, so it's hard to tell if these results are representative of the intended rates.

Edited for math correction.

So.

So... silver is better? Even if it's a smaller sample size, this makes silvers look like the better option.

And wow, you've bought a lot...!

[luhft]

Only Gray

luhft

You're making sense. I've been buying silvers based on the results so far.

25/85 = 29.41% chance for rare or better in silver.
114/166 = 68.67% chance for rare or better in gold. <---not three times the value of silver.

When you take the sellback values into consideration, gold packs look even worse. It's true that gold packs appear to have a much higher rate of cards above 3, but I don't know if that justifies the extra cost.

The sample size is still pretty small, though, so it's hard to tell if these results are representative of the intended rates.

Edited for math correction.

So.

So... silver is better? Even if it's a smaller sample size, this makes silvers look like the better option.

And wow, you've bought a lot...!

Those were the results from Junett's thread at the time I posted.
The data has been updated then, but the thread has also been closed.

But yeah, if you're looking at the chances of rare or better with the latest data, silver is best.
Gold packs have a far better value of epics per essence spent, though, and legendaries seem unpredictable.

Refer to Erogenous Jones's February 3rd Chart for a nice visual:

Erogenous Jones

[Knight of the Horizon]

Erogenous Jones

Knight of the Horizon

They should just delete gold packs then. o3o

Then packs will only be 1k and 5k. surprised

I don't really see that as a good option, tbh.

I like the drop rates in the Gold Packs. They are far better for Rares and Epics, which makes them a good choice for people who are looking for those particular Cards to fill out their collections.
I just think that three times the Essence for twice the chance is pushing it.

Lol what's wrong with having a high end pack for people who play a lot? :U Lol according to Pan the chances of getting a rare scale properly with the cost..

Not sure what the problem is here? xd We have cheaper packs for people who play less. o3o

They could solve the problem further by adding more intermediate packs, but that would just be going back to the old system, which they removed because it was too complicated? (I agree with their choice there. 3nodding )

[Erogenous Jones]

Knight of the Horizon

Erogenous Jones

Knight of the Horizon

They should just delete gold packs then. o3o

Then packs will only be 1k and 5k. surprised

I don't really see that as a good option, tbh.

I like the drop rates in the Gold Packs. They are far better for Rares and Epics, which makes them a good choice for people who are looking for those particular Cards to fill out their collections.
I just think that three times the Essence for twice the chance is pushing it.

Lol what's wrong with having a high end pack for people who play a lot? :U Lol according to Pan the chances of getting a rare scale properly with the cost..

Not sure what the problem is here? xd We have cheaper packs for people who play less. o3o

They could solve the problem further by adding more intermediate packs, but that would just be going back to the old system, which they removed because it was too complicated? (I agree with their choice there. 3nodding )

I guess what it comes down to is that the chances for Rares and Better, don't appear to scale commensurately with cost.
As I mentioned, based solely on people's reports, the chances of getting a RoB from a Gold Pack seem to be a bit more than twice that of Silver, while the price is fully three times more.
That is not proportional.
As for having Packs for people who play less or more...this one comes down more to egalitarianism and the feeling that everyone likes to have a shot at success, not just those who have the ability to play for hours upon hours every day.
I can only use myself as an example, but I have been playing for a bit over two months now, and play as much as I can (which is really probably more than I should redface ).
I've played 475 games and converted every last bit of Essence to Packs, and I still have all of 4 Epics and 0 Legendary's to show for it.
For someone like myself, who sees making progress towards completing their Deck as a substantial part of what constitutes success in HoC, this is pretty frustrating and demotivating because there's no way to complete my Deck other than to roll the dice at 15,000 Essence (probably 4-5 hours of play time) a shot.
I`m not asking for the odds to be improved and I acknowlege that part of what makes success enjoyable is struggling to attain it, but from where I`m sitting, it looks to me like I could play for years and never complete my Deck.
Making the Packs a bit cheaper might at least reduce that to months and provide me with just enough little victories (getting a good Card form a Pack) to keep me motivated through the journey.

[Unforseen Consequences]

I like the game, but when they raised the price to 15k I just gave up because I don't have enough time to play that much.
Even 10k is a lot, but it would be better than 15. sweatdrop