Okay, I need some convincing.

[kamorama]

Alright, here's the deal:

Yes, I have read the other posts here (At least, I've read most of them.) But as far as I go, the things I've read still don't convince me. (To either side, mind you.) And I want to understand both the pros and the cons of this healthcare bill. So I'm asking if any of you people, The ones who actually know what's going on and don't just post "obama suxz" or whatnot, can convince me onto your side. Believe me, I'm wide open on this topic, but I may ask questions when something doesn't make sense to me.

[Bluemew1234]

Though there are merits to the bill, I am against it.

My two biggest complaints are:

The cost is too high. While the CBO says that it will reduce the deficit, they also state that due to the large scale of the bill, their estimates are inaccurate, and a large portion of the savings (up to 25%) are based off taxes that will be voted on in 2018, and therefore have a good chance of not existing all together.

The insurance mandate. No other product has been required to be bought in order to live in this country, and I believe it should stay like that. (The counter to that is that car insurance, but that is an invalid arguement because that is mandated by the states, and is not required to live, but only to drive.)



Oh, and because I am continuing my new tradition of mocking Dermezel, I must post the following: CARD GAEMS ON MOTORCYCLES!!!

[casual-timewaster]

^ I'm sure Martin would be proud. Or at least amused.

By-the-by, do you have no equivalent to council tax there, nor have to pay for water?

[kamorama]

Um... I don't know about the video or what it means but it's pretty stupid...


Also, what other things do you think are bad?

[black_cloud14]

I'm not going to go into uber details right here, but my understanding of the debate is this:

Americans have no uniform health care, and millions of americans have no coverage whatsoever.

Obama wants to make sure everyone has access to some form of healthcare.

For some reasons, many Americans do not like this, because of such issues as "We never get sick"
"We will end up paying for someone else's abortion" (which is blatantly not true, its a result of misinformation that seems to persist somehow)
"If they don't have healthcare already, they should go get a job so they can afford it". As if these people aren't already trying to get jobs.

The United States lags far behind many other developed countries in terms of health care. This bill is LONG past due.

And I'm tired and eating leftover turkey right now, so I don't feel like going to find any sources, but I might look later if I feel like it.

[Bluemew1234]

kamorama

Um... I don't know about the video or what it means but it's pretty stupid...


Also, what other things do you think are bad?

You can mostly ignore the video. Im just posting it everytime I say something as a way of mocking someone here on Gaia named Dermezel.

[Phukking Writch]

Many people flip out and say it'll lead us to socialism. It won't. One bill, for a necessity no less, is not gonna make us socialist. Plus there are democratic countries out there with universal health care as well, and they are doing just fine. If Obama learns from what they did, we will be well off.

The cost seems to be a big issue. Supposedly the bill will turn itself around with the taxes, and then by that time health care will be cheaper. There are going to be more insurance companies for more competition to push down prices. That added on to the fact that no one can be denied puts our people in a much better situation than they were before.

Then some people say "well I don't want Health Care because I'm healthy and don't need it." Be that as it may, you are still required to have it, because without it it makes you a liability. You are not God. s**t happens, and then you won't have health care to save you. That's why they are requiring us to have it.

[Trorbes]

Bluemew1234

Though there are merits to the bill, I am against it.

My two biggest complaints are:

The cost is too high. While the CBO says that it will reduce the deficit, they also state that due to the large scale of the bill, their estimates are inaccurate, and a large portion of the savings (up to 25%) are based off taxes that will be voted on in 2018, and therefore have a good chance of not existing all together.

Even if the reform's savings were only 25% of what is claimed, that's still more than enough to justify this in my opinion. From my understanding it'll end up "paying for itself" within 10-20 years, and even if it's a slight bit longer, health care and health insurance reform is, I believe, necessary.

Bluemew1234

The insurance mandate. No other product has been required to be bought in order to live in this country, and I believe it should stay like that. (The counter to that is that car insurance, but that is an invalid arguement because that is mandated by the states, and is not required to live, but only to drive.)

The government'll still let you live if you don't have health insurance, it's just that if you make over 400% of the poverty line you have to have insurance or pay a fine. While I don't necessarily agree with this (at least, not without a public option) the mandate is there in order to alleviate some of the losses the hospitals see because people are unable to pay for care, losses which are paid for by the government itself.

[kamorama]

Alright, so far it's interesting, but here's some questions for you yea sayers:

Black Cloud, have you read in the actual bill that we won't end up paying for abortions. I'm not against abortions entirely, but I don't like the idea of having to pay for someone elses. Also, what do you say if someone mentions drug addicts or plain liars and lazy people. Will this Bill keep them from taking advantage of it?

Phukking Writch, What is socialism in your oppinion. Many people seem to have different opinnions on what it is. Second, health care is a big step forward. Some may not think so, but it does seem that way. How do you know the government can't control us with health care. They will be able to make restrictions on who gets health care. Third, in this video, Obama mentions that this bill will only change three things, and yet isn't the bill VERY long? How come there would only be three?

And Trorbes, won't the government be paying for more when they have to take care of all 400% of the poor rather than just the hospitals.

[Phukking Writch]

I'm scared to answer about Socialism just because so many people say different things and the others saying "NO YOU'RE WRONG!"
From what I remember in Government class, it's a controlled economy where everyone gets the necessities they need to live. It makes everyone equal in the sense of living standards. It's not a bad thing, even though some people say it is; it's just not what America is.

The video is 20 minutes long, I'll watch it and get back to you on that, but with those three things comes a lot of back up and support necessary to hold them in place.

[black_cloud14]

kamorama

Alright, so far it's interesting, but here's some questions for you yea sayers:

Black Cloud, have you read in the actual bill that we won't end up paying for abortions. I'm not against abortions entirely, but I don't like the idea of having to pay for someone elses. Also, what do you say if someone mentions drug addicts or plain liars and lazy people. Will this Bill keep them from taking advantage of it?

Phukking Writch, What is socialism in your oppinion. Many people seem to have different opinnions on what it is. Second, health care is a big step forward. Some may not think so, but it does seem that way. How do you know the government can't control us with health care. They will be able to make restrictions on who gets health care. Third, in this video, Obama mentions that this bill will only change three things, and yet isn't the bill VERY long? How come there would only be three?

And Trorbes, won't the government be paying for more when they have to take care of all 400% of the poor rather than just the hospitals.

I'm not 100% on the details of the bill, but from what I understand, abortion in particular will either not be covered, or there will be some provision since this is a big issue though.

It's not even that you are "paying for someone else's abortion". It's that you are paying the government / health care provider / whoever it is money so that in the event of an illness or accident for you and your family, they will give you services for no up front cost. I don't even understand how this whole "paying for other people's procedures" became an issue, as I've never thought about it once (i am in canada btw)

What do you mean by "plain liars"? It's pretty difficult to lie to the government about your income status. And anyways, Drug users, if they went into the hospital for some tests, would likely be flagged as illegal drug users from their blood work, and dealt with accordingly.

And lazy people will still likely need to pay the premiums for the mandatory health care.

Again, I'm not american, and I don't claim to be familiar with all the nuances of the bill.

I may not reply, as I'm off to do something else now, but hopefully I helped. =)

[Bluemew1234]

Trorbes

Bluemew1234

Though there are merits to the bill, I am against it.

My two biggest complaints are:

The cost is too high. While the CBO says that it will reduce the deficit, they also state that due to the large scale of the bill, their estimates are inaccurate, and a large portion of the savings (up to 25%) are based off taxes that will be voted on in 2018, and therefore have a good chance of not existing all together.

Even if the reform's savings were only 25% of what is claimed, that's still more than enough to justify this in my opinion. From my understanding it'll end up "paying for itself" within 10-20 years, and even if it's a slight bit longer, health care and health insurance reform is, I believe, necessary.

Bluemew1234

The insurance mandate. No other product has been required to be bought in order to live in this country, and I believe it should stay like that. (The counter to that is that car insurance, but that is an invalid arguement because that is mandated by the states, and is not required to live, but only to drive.)

The government'll still let you live if you don't have health insurance, it's just that if you make over 400% of the poverty line you have to have insurance or pay a fine. While I don't necessarily agree with this (at least, not without a public option) the mandate is there in order to alleviate some of the losses the hospitals see because people are unable to pay for care, losses which are paid for by the government itself.

The problem is more than just the 25% that may or may not exist. Its the fact that the CBO admits their estimates on this bill are worse than they usually are due to it being such a large piece of legislation.

That, combined with the fact that many of the CBO's estimates on costs end up being far lower than what they are in reality, there is at least a decent chance that this bill wont pay for itself.

And Phukking Writch, no one has ever really explained how the costs for healthcare are going to go down to me. Mind doing that?

[kamorama]

Okay, Phukking Writch, I see more flaws, only slight, but realize I don't only see this in your side, but the other as well. If the others would post, I would attack them too. (Just figured I'd point that out cuz I got a nasty PM about me trying to trick nay-sayers by only attacking them.)

Where do you get your socialism ideas? Wasn't Hitler a socialist? And didn't pretty much everyone hate him? And accoring to Karl Marx, socialism is where government controls a lot about workers. I'll wait for you to finish the video to hear the rest.


*edited*
Bluemew, what about the second statement made by Trorbes? About the Poverty line, what is bad about that?

And Black Cloud, from what I can see, paying the government so someone can have an abortion is still the same to me. But I'll drop that issue as you solved it pretty well. By 'plain liars' I meant people who abuse public health care. I've heard of stories in Britain where people were abusing health care and some other person died because there was no room for them at the hospital. As for the Lazy person Part, good job, do you take debate?

[Bluemew1234]

Oh, and since no one has mentioned it, abortion will not be covered by the government.

In order to appease a few representatives and get them to vote for the bill, Obama promised to sign an executive order making sure abortions would not be paid for by the government.

He signed it shortly after the bill passed.

[Phukking Writch]

Ok I watched the first half of the video where he says the 3 major things included in the reform. I understand a little more now: the bill will pay for itself because we will be paying what we already have been paying for health care as it was, but it will be cheaper.

As for my socialism ideas, well everyone I know from socialist countries has said they loved it compared to America.