More government involvement?

[Misaki Ki]

Someone give Vryko Lakas a medal.

[EbeleRoderick]

Vryko Lakas

The financial problems you cited (Greece etc.) are actually partly OUR fault for not keeping a closer eye on the banking and investment industries. Greece was never economically strong in modern times, but the financial crisis has tipped them over the edge. By comparison, we are the richest nation in the world and far less susceptible to tanking with the market, even when it's our ******** that do it. Tell me why the richest nation in the world can't afford the kind of universal healthcare coverage that OMG SOCIALIST EUROPE! does? Why is their less-expensive model NOT something we want to strive for? What about their access to healthcare, which is better than ours on average? Why are more Americans dying of preventable diseases despite our vast economic wealth? Why is child mortality higher here? Think about all this before you rant and rail against becoming European in regards to healthcare.

I agree with you, Vryko. I don't understand why we don't have the single-payer health care system in the first place. Why must some people subject to the asinine arguments that always has to mention "total government control; no choices", "socialism" and "communism"?

Its pretty sad, I think. We have a health care system that promotes that health care should be a privilege, and those that abide by that claim spout information that usually includes what I said above, and if not, its something that is related to the economy going into shambles due to the single-payer system or something else.

America needs a single-payer system. Looking at health care as a privilege is immoral.

[Oidin]

Vryko Lakas

The Druid Stalker

imderanged

Trorbes

Uh, ******** the Founding Fathers? I mean, they're important to American history and all, but aside from being a couple centuries dead they lived in a much different time - they wanted the US to be isolationist, after all, and they had little problem with treating nonwhites and women as less important than the white male. Quite frankly we should stop worrying about what they would say and start thinking for ourselves.

this

So totally ignore likely advice from people who founded the most prosperous and culturally rich nation on the face of the planet? Sure, let's end up like Europe. o.o

Europe generally has better quality of healthcare than we do. It's also cheaper per-capita in most of their nations. Almost all of their member nations have public healthcare options. Switzerland doesn't, but they did adopt a plan that includes individual mandates and tight regulation of the insurance industry plus government subsidies for the disadvantaged. Kind of like the plan we adopted, but going further: insurance companies are required to offer a basic plan at the same rate for everybody and may not make a profit from it: they can earn extra by offering additional coverage. As a result, their healthcare spending is significantly less of their GDP than ours.

I don't understand why people keep pointing to Europe as something NOT to emulate when it comes to healthcare: they save more of their money through the various universal coverage systems than we do under the usual model here. It is less expensive than what we had.

The financial problems you cited (Greece etc.) are actually partly OUR fault for not keeping a closer eye on the banking and investment industries. Greece was never economically strong in modern times, but the financial crisis has tipped them over the edge. By comparison, we are the richest nation in the world and far less susceptible to tanking with the market, even when it's our ******** that do it. Tell me why the richest nation in the world can't afford the kind of universal healthcare coverage that OMG SOCIALIST EUROPE! does? Why is their less-expensive model NOT something we want to strive for? What about their access to healthcare, which is better than ours on average? Why are more Americans dying of preventable diseases despite our vast economic wealth? Why is child mortality higher here? Think about all this before you rant and rail against becoming European in regards to healthcare.

Have you ever thought it might be because the US has a lot of sick people? For instance 20% of are population consumes 80% of all medical costs. That means out of the 2.3 trillion dollars the US spends on healthcare, 61 million people consume 1.84 trillion dollars, now maybe we should stop spending as much money taking care of them. Some studies have show that the US spends $500 billion a year on unneeded medical care. Sadly this wasteful spending on healthcare can actually be bad for us, around 30,000 Medicare patients die each year because of unneeded care. Source

Healthcare problems in the US are mostly due to hospitals and doctors; not because of the insurance companies. Now when an insurance company denies your claim because they feel that a test is unneeded, people scream about them being evil insurance companies. But when they approve of these wasteful test they are doing nothing more but driving up the cost of healthcare.

[Vryko Lakas]

Oidin

Have you ever thought it might be because the US has a lot of sick people? For instance 20% of are population consumes 80% of all medical costs.

Normalized against population numbers, i.e. as percentages of our population compared to a percentage of their population, we are still behind other countries with less people in both quality of care and affordability. We may also have a lot of sick people because our healthcare system is so broken to begin with.

Quote:

That means out of the 2.3 trillion dollars the US spends on healthcare, 61 million people consume 1.84 trillion dollars, now maybe we should stop spending as much money taking care of them.

We can do that by making care less expensive. Those who are privately insured pay more for care than those with public coverage. Private insurance from small subscriber pools have to charge everybody higher premiums to cover the few people with expensive chronic conditions; if the base of customers is larger, the burden is spread out more. The government is not allowed to negotiate drug prices. Etc., etc.

Quote:

Some studies have show that the US spends $500 billion a year on unneeded medical care. Sadly this wasteful spending on healthcare can actually be bad for us, around 30,000 Medicare patients die each year because of unneeded care. Source

One of the new provisions in the reform law is for comparative studies of different treatment options to see which are most effective and which are most costly and make recommendations based on that research. This should reduce the amount of money spent on unnecessary or ineffective treatments.

Quote:

Healthcare problems in the US are mostly due to hospitals and doctors; not because of the insurance companies.

At least part of the cost that hospitals and doctors' offices rack up goes towards wrestling with insurance companies or other collections. Insurance reform can also have an effect on overall costs by reducing the number of issues providers have to deal with: This is something your source echoes, noting that the administrative costs of our fee-for-service model makes our system almost twice that of Canada's. Both the comparative effectiveness research and the reform to payment systems are mentioned in your article as part of the solution to reducing unnecessary procedures. Another of their suggestions, an online electronic medical records system, is already being funded under the latest stimulus bill and is something Obama pushed for. We're already on the way towards tackling the issues that make care expensive, even the unnecessary procedures.

Quote:

Now when an insurance company denies your claim because they feel that a test is unneeded, people scream about them being evil insurance companies.

For-profit insurance has every motivation to "reduce costs" by deeming things unnecessary when they're not. I have a diabetic friend whose doctor saw that he needed to up his insulin regimen, but his insurance company second-guessed the doctor. That's not even touching the "pre-existing conditions" gotcha which had make many Americans "uninsurable." The back-and-forth between doctors and insurance companies is expensive and degrades the quality of care people receive.

[The Druid Stalker]

Vryko Lakas

The Druid Stalker

imderanged

Trorbes

Uh, ******** the Founding Fathers? I mean, they're important to American history and all, but aside from being a couple centuries dead they lived in a much different time - they wanted the US to be isolationist, after all, and they had little problem with treating nonwhites and women as less important than the white male. Quite frankly we should stop worrying about what they would say and start thinking for ourselves.

this

So totally ignore likely advice from people who founded the most prosperous and culturally rich nation on the face of the planet? Sure, let's end up like Europe. o.o

Europe generally has better quality of healthcare than we do. It's also cheaper per-capita in most of their nations. Almost all of their member nations have public healthcare options. Switzerland doesn't, but they did adopt a plan that includes individual mandates and tight regulation of the insurance industry plus government subsidies for the disadvantaged. Kind of like the plan we adopted, but going further: insurance companies are required to offer a basic plan at the same rate for everybody and may not make a profit from it: they can earn extra by offering additional coverage. As a result, their healthcare spending is significantly less of their GDP than ours.

I don't understand why people keep pointing to Europe as something NOT to emulate when it comes to healthcare: they save more of their money through the various universal coverage systems than we do under the usual model here. It is less expensive than what we had.

The financial problems you cited (Greece etc.) are actually partly OUR fault for not keeping a closer eye on the banking and investment industries. Greece was never economically strong in modern times, but the financial crisis has tipped them over the edge. By comparison, we are the richest nation in the world and far less susceptible to tanking with the market, even when it's our ******** that do it. Tell me why the richest nation in the world can't afford the kind of universal healthcare coverage that OMG SOCIALIST EUROPE! does? Why is their less-expensive model NOT something we want to strive for? What about their access to healthcare, which is better than ours on average? Why are more Americans dying of preventable diseases despite our vast economic wealth? Why is child mortality higher here? Think about all this before you rant and rail against becoming European in regards to healthcare.

Did you read the link I posted from Dr. Jon Magnussen? If not...I suggest YOU read before you decide to rant.

[Vryko Lakas]

The Druid Stalker

Did you read the link I posted from Dr. Jon Magnussen? If not...I suggest YOU read before you decide to rant.

You didn't even link it, you told us to Just ******** Google It. No thanks, I'm not doing your homework for you.

[The Druid Stalker]

Vryko Lakas

The Druid Stalker

Did you read the link I posted from Dr. Jon Magnussen? If not...I suggest YOU read before you decide to rant.

You didn't even link it, you told us to Just ******** Google It. No thanks, I'm not doing your homework for you.

Again, I'll post the link.

http://www.medical.siemens.com/siemens/sv_SE/rg_marcom_FBAs/files/brochures/magazin_medsol_2009_05/Medical_Solutions_May_2009_Essay.pdf

Firstly, there's no need to start swearing. It kind of makes you seem hillbilly. = )

[Lord Setar]

The Druid Stalker

Lord Setar

The Druid Stalker

Lord Setar

The Druid Stalker

Google search the Scandinavian healthcare system. Jan Magnussen, Ph.D is a professor of Healthcare Economics who would, indeed, say that it has not helped. 3.5 hospital beds per 1000 people in Scandinavia is pretty bad.

Google is not a source. Do not expect me to do your research for you.

The Druid Stalker

Europe is bailing out Greece and Italy. That's pretty bad.

I'm pretty sure that there are many countries in the EU aside from Greece and Italy.

The Druid Stalker

Poor Germany is being forced to give to their neighbors', in spite of their neighbors' foolish stewardship of funds.

Doesn't Germany also have public healthcare?

The Druid Stalker

Yeah. That's a bad thing. Where you from, China?

More like Canada. And in before you start pulling out the standard unsourced neocon anecdotes about Canadians going to the US for surgery - stats or gtfo.

I think it's funny you fail to articulate many of your thoughts in a more reputable form.

I think it's funny how you whine vaguely and pointlessly about some sort of stylistic difference.

The Druid Stalker

Google Source: You didn't know the paper existed. That was ignorance. You're choosing not to read it and use the knowledge. That's stupidity. I don't WANT to do my own research!

At this point I strongly suspect troll, since you're bawwing about how I told you to back your s**t up not by simple idiotic complaining but by trying to use a convoluted excuse that appears to be attempting to pass for logic in order to tell me that I'm somehow wrong for telling you to give me the damn paper, show me the damn study and fulfill the burden of proof you brought upon yourself.

The Druid Stalker

There are many countries in the EU, but again the central idea, is should other countries in the EU be forced by mandate to bail out other countries? People in Germany should be taxed higher to pay for Greece's faulty budget work?

Are EU members forced to enter and remain in the EU?

The Druid Stalker

Germany does have public healthcare, but the reference was considering its one of the most prosperous nations in the EU, because of its own financial policies, and yet it must be made to bail out neighboring countries.

...yeah, troll. Even the stupidest of neocons won't deny that EU members are members of their own volition. Membership in the European Union is voluntary, the treaty must be ratified by the EU member states and the country joining, and members of the EU are allowed to withdraw from the EU. Whoops. Suddenly, Germany's not being forced, because they're a member of the EU and as such have accepted that they may be mandated to aid other members of the EU - and I would expect that if Germany wanted to withdraw, it would be pretty damn big news, so they seem perfectly fine with it.

The Druid Stalker

Hey man, I respect Canada. You don't have to be rude, my question of origin was genuine. I have a great respect for Marc Emery and the BC Marijuana Party activism. I just think the idea of creating safety nets for citizens by picking the pockets of other citizens is contrary to the original role of government entities.

So you are against the police service?

The Druid Stalker

Hey kid, I know you think you have something to prove by being rude. It's just not needed. condescending bitchwhine

Politicking will get you nowhere. Bitching about how I phrase my points does not in any way make my points less valid.

The Druid Stalker

Firstly, http://www.medical.siemens.com/siemens/sv_SE/rg_marcom_FBAs/files/brochures/magazin_medsol_2009_05/Medical_Solutions_May_2009_Essay.pdf There's your link. Go read it.

I don't see how it supports you, it simply outlines the difficulties that Norway, Denmark and Sweden are facing and how each has tried to cope. Unfortunately, not every country uses the same system as them.

The Druid Stalker

Not all citizens of countries in the EU had the ability to vote regarding entrance to the EU, so that question is really biased.

What is with you and not backing up your claims unless asked? Or do you simply not know how a treaty is ratified?

The Druid Stalker

The fact is Germany would not withdraw, because it would be an obvious sign of discord to refuse bailing out their neighboring countries.

You know what'd help? Evidence that the German populace doesn't like having to bail out Greece. If you don't have that, then it could just as easily be that Germany doesn't really mind living up to their obligations as a member of the EU - you'd just be assuming that they're only staying in for political reasons in order to further your stance.

The Druid Stalker

I'm done conversing with you. You're far too combative to have a decent, respectful conversation with. Good luck with that Satanism, friend.

I'd rather not talk to someone who places more weight on how their opponent phrases their arguments than on the arguments themselves, which is what you're doing.

[The Druid Stalker]

Lord Setar

The Druid Stalker

Lord Setar

The Druid Stalker

Lord Setar

The Druid Stalker

Google search the Scandinavian healthcare system. Jan Magnussen, Ph.D is a professor of Healthcare Economics who would, indeed, say that it has not helped. 3.5 hospital beds per 1000 people in Scandinavia is pretty bad.

Google is not a source. Do not expect me to do your research for you.

The Druid Stalker

Europe is bailing out Greece and Italy. That's pretty bad.

I'm pretty sure that there are many countries in the EU aside from Greece and Italy.

The Druid Stalker

Poor Germany is being forced to give to their neighbors', in spite of their neighbors' foolish stewardship of funds.

Doesn't Germany also have public healthcare?

The Druid Stalker

Yeah. That's a bad thing. Where you from, China?

More like Canada. And in before you start pulling out the standard unsourced neocon anecdotes about Canadians going to the US for surgery - stats or gtfo.

I think it's funny you fail to articulate many of your thoughts in a more reputable form.

I think it's funny how you whine vaguely and pointlessly about some sort of stylistic difference.

The Druid Stalker

Google Source: You didn't know the paper existed. That was ignorance. You're choosing not to read it and use the knowledge. That's stupidity. I don't WANT to do my own research!

At this point I strongly suspect troll, since you're bawwing about how I told you to back your s**t up not by simple idiotic complaining but by trying to use a convoluted excuse that appears to be attempting to pass for logic in order to tell me that I'm somehow wrong for telling you to give me the damn paper, show me the damn study and fulfill the burden of proof you brought upon yourself.

The Druid Stalker

There are many countries in the EU, but again the central idea, is should other countries in the EU be forced by mandate to bail out other countries? People in Germany should be taxed higher to pay for Greece's faulty budget work?

Are EU members forced to enter and remain in the EU?

The Druid Stalker

Germany does have public healthcare, but the reference was considering its one of the most prosperous nations in the EU, because of its own financial policies, and yet it must be made to bail out neighboring countries.

...yeah, troll. Even the stupidest of neocons won't deny that EU members are members of their own volition. Membership in the European Union is voluntary, the treaty must be ratified by the EU member states and the country joining, and members of the EU are allowed to withdraw from the EU. Whoops. Suddenly, Germany's not being forced, because they're a member of the EU and as such have accepted that they may be mandated to aid other members of the EU - and I would expect that if Germany wanted to withdraw, it would be pretty damn big news, so they seem perfectly fine with it.

The Druid Stalker

Hey man, I respect Canada. You don't have to be rude, my question of origin was genuine. I have a great respect for Marc Emery and the BC Marijuana Party activism. I just think the idea of creating safety nets for citizens by picking the pockets of other citizens is contrary to the original role of government entities.

So you are against the police service?

The Druid Stalker

Hey kid, I know you think you have something to prove by being rude. It's just not needed. condescending bitchwhine

Politicking will get you nowhere. Bitching about how I phrase my points does not in any way make my points less valid.

The Druid Stalker

Firstly, http://www.medical.siemens.com/siemens/sv_SE/rg_marcom_FBAs/files/brochures/magazin_medsol_2009_05/Medical_Solutions_May_2009_Essay.pdf There's your link. Go read it.

I don't see how it supports you, it simply outlines the difficulties that Norway, Denmark and Sweden are facing and how each has tried to cope. Unfortunately, not every country uses the same system as them.

The Druid Stalker

Not all citizens of countries in the EU had the ability to vote regarding entrance to the EU, so that question is really biased.

What is with you and not backing up your claims unless asked? Or do you simply not know how a treaty is ratified?

The Druid Stalker

The fact is Germany would not withdraw, because it would be an obvious sign of discord to refuse bailing out their neighboring countries.

You know what'd help? Evidence that the German populace doesn't like having to bail out Greece. If you don't have that, then it could just as easily be that Germany doesn't really mind living up to their obligations as a member of the EU - you'd just be assuming that they're only staying in for political reasons in order to further your stance.

The Druid Stalker

I'm done conversing with you. You're far too combative to have a decent, respectful conversation with. Good luck with that Satanism, friend.

I'd rather not talk to someone who places more weight on how their opponent phrases their arguments than on the arguments themselves, which is what you're doing.

Then be good and successful in that country you live in, friend. = )

[Pedestrian Panda]

I got this little gem when I was posting on someone's journal.

[Oidin]

Vryko Lakas

Normalized against population numbers, i.e. as percentages of our population compared to a percentage of their population, we are still behind other countries with less people in both quality of care and affordability. We may also have a lot of sick people because our healthcare system is so broken to begin with.

The United States has some of the highest quality healthcare in the world. Americans tend to be less healthy then most Europeans, mostly due to poor life style choices. The healthcare in this nation is deigned to cure people once they do get sick and not to promote healthy life styles.

Vryko Lakas

We can do that by making care less expensive. Those who are privately insured pay more for care than those with public coverage. Private insurance from small subscriber pools have to charge everybody higher premiums to cover the few people with expensive chronic conditions; if the base of customers is larger, the burden is spread out more. The government is not allowed to negotiate drug prices. Etc., etc.

People who have private insurance pay more for various reason, for instance, health insurance companies have to pay taxes to federal and state governments. Where as public insurance program is tax exempt. Not to mention the definition of administrative cost is different for the government and private companies. Anyways theirs a decent study that talks more about administrative cots that can be found here.

Vryko Lakas

For-profit insurance has every motivation to "reduce costs" by deeming things unnecessary when they're not. I have a diabetic friend whose doctor saw that he needed to up his insulin regimen, but his insurance company second-guessed the doctor. That's not even touching the "pre-existing conditions" gotcha which had make many Americans "uninsurable." The back-and-forth between doctors and insurance companies is expensive and degrades the quality of care people receive.

The profit margins for these insurance companies are only 3.4%. In comparison pharmaceutical companies have profit margins of 16.4%. Source

[Vryko Lakas]

Oidin

The United States has some of the highest quality healthcare in the world.

By what measure? Our pioneering medical advances? The fact that we have so many highly skilled specialists? That means jack s**t for us if people can't get access to treatment. I saw that same "best health care system in the world!" line in my state's Republican party 2008 platform, but no mention of how it was measured. By contrast, the numbers I've seen for the US's health care system compared to other 1st world nations are all horrifying, especially given the amount of money we spend on it. At this point I think the "best in the world!" line is worse than just empty jingoism, it's a meme divorced from reality that's holding back legitimate discussion of how to best go after reforms.

Quote:

Americans tend to be less healthy then most Europeans, mostly due to poor life style choices.

And less access to medical care. It's not just that we're a nation of burger-chomping fat-asses.

Quote:

People who have private insurance pay more for various reason, for instance, health insurance companies have to pay taxes to federal and state governments. Where as public insurance program is tax exempt.

Makes public insurance look more appealing. Unless you want to argue that insurers should be tax-exempt.

Quote:

Not to mention the definition of administrative cost is different for the government and private companies. Anyways theirs a decent study that talks more about administrative cots that can be found here.

*sigh*
When you look at the public Medicare plan versus the Part C Medicare Advantage Plan (private insurance offered through Medicare), administrative costs are still almost five times higher and match closely the administrative costs of regular, run-of-the-mill private insurance. This is an apt comparison because both are abiding by the same rules and you remove the things Book talks about such as the older population (both Medicare programs cover the same age group) and extra services not measured by claims paid.
Also, please don't link to the Heritage Foundation. I've found (independently of Krugman's sentiments in that post) that they promote too much ideological bullshit with too much industry money to be credible. I don't trust any group that lets Sallie Baliunas write their pieces on global warming.

Quote:

The profit margins for these insurance companies are only 3.4%. In comparison pharmaceutical companies have profit margins of 16.4%. Source

I didn't say they were excessively profitable. I said that seeking profit gives them perverse incentive to deny claims and come between a patient and their doctor's care.