Saturated fat is GOOD for you; a look at the USDA guidelines

[lCENSOREDI]

The_science_master

I'm interested in the research you cited. If you can provide the works cited of those articles. You don't have to provide a url just the works cited would be fine.

Sweet Murderer

I had to re-retrieve all the articles manually, as for whatever reason I couldn't copy-paste from the document I used for my paper... Type it out? HAH. So, I've not included the sources I needed just to cite the counter-arguments or the movie I provided, nor Gary Taube's book Good Calories, Bad Calories, which is easily found in most libraries.

Along with the movie provided above, here are the references from my paper, in no particular order:

"Low Carb Vs. Low Fat." Harvard Health Letter 29.10 (2004): 4. Academic Search Premier. Web. 2 May 2012.
Samuel Klein, et al. "Weight And Metabolic Outcomes After 2 Years On A Low-Carbohydrate Versus Low-Fat Diet." Annals Of Internal Medicine 153.3 (2010): 147-W.55. Academic Search Premier. Web. 2 May 2012.
"No Increased Risk Of Coronary Heart Disease In Women On Low-Carb Diet." Geriatrics 62.1 (2007): 14. Academic Search Premier. Web. 2 May 2012.
A. Sebastian, et al. "Metabolic And Physiologic Improvements From Consuming A Paleolithic, Hunter-Gatherer Type Diet." European Journal Of Clinical Nutrition 63.8 (2009): 947-955. Academic Search Premier. Web. 2 May 2012.
S. Vinker, et al. "A Low Carbohydrate Mediterranean Diet Improves Cardiovascular Risk Factors And Diabetes Control Among Overweight Patients With Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus: A 1-Year Prospective Randomized Intervention Study." Diabetes, Obesity & Metabolism 12.3 (2010): 204-209. Academic Search Premier. Web. 2 May 2012.
Frank B. Hu, et al. "Low-Carbohydrate Diets And All-Cause And Cause-Specific Mortality." Annals Of Internal Medicine 153.5 (2010): 289-W97. Academic Search Premier. Web. 2 May 2012.

That last one is important, especially for Sweet Murder. It is a study whose findings suggest a plant-based low carbohydrate lifestyle (not vegetarian, but more heavily based on veggies than meat) is optimal over one of purely bacon and eggs-type eating you see in Sweden.

Other resources I did not cite in my paper, but worth a look:
WebMD
DrBiffa
LewRockwell
FourHourWorkWeek
Wheat is an opiate- Track Your Plaque

And, I know I'm really beating this horse, but: please give some of your time to FatHead. It looks shoddy, and has some cheesy bits, but the argument on carbs and fats is well organized, presented and backed up. The fast food bit is kind of interesting, too.

[Bunai]

lCENSOREDI

Bunai

One diet does not fit all.
As some saying goes.

I'm not trying to single you out, as at least one other person made a similar comment, but just because yours was more concise.

Why do people tend to believe this? Health is health. We do not pretend what is healthy for one animal (let's say, a wolf), is not healthy for another animal of the same species, given neither specimen is sick or deficient. We as humans are still animals. All lions have the same dietary needs. All polar bears, all robins, and so on. I'm not saying there aren't different paths to weight loss or fitness, but that there is one formula we evolved on, and one alone.

Unless, of course, you mean the personal preference changing between people on what they like to eat.

My comment was to articles/movie, not your postings. It was also not a personal attack nor a put down.

However, foods in their most basic forms are of course more suiting, but since we are different, there are (healthy/natural)foods some humans can't tolerate. Then take into consideration that cities have grown and populated areas don't have the most easy access to unprocessed foods. Some foods are modified to give a longer 'shelf life'.

I would love to see (as the years go on) that certain foods that have 'added ingredients' that are not needed, be removed or at least have a healthy alternate. Mini example, dairy in chocolate, when without it, it is fine.

For every Diet that is created there are handfuls of 'studies' countering it, even though a particular diet will work for a certain type of peoples. And then location and ethnicity comes into play.

[Sweet Murderer]

Absolute Virtue

You're mistaking low carb for minimal carbs. A low carb diet can eat carrots without a problem, because your goal is probably going to be somewhere around 100g of carb. When your concern is staying in a ketogenic state then yeah, staying below 30g carb a day is fairly important.

However, that can vary a lot. I can personally get away with eating close to 50-60g of carbs in a day and remain in ketosis. In fact, I eat chocolate on top of the nuts and vegetables I already eat daily and do just fine.

I heard(or taught by) from one of my friends - who follow LCHF diehard - that they're not "allowed" to eat carrots and such. Basically it's a minimal carb diet, not really low carb.

I'm pretty sure I'm not mistaken - but I might be since I usually never bother to get into trend-diets.

[Sweet Murderer]

The Sky Does Not Bow

carrots have like, almost no carbs at all. and the carbs carrots do have are fibrous, so that means they won't be staying in your body. I mean, low carb diets are certainly on e way to drop fat, but cutting vegetables? That's a bad idea all around. I mean, what would you eat? Fruit has sugars, veggies have fibres. All that's left is meat, and eatng just meat is malnutrition.

That's exactly why I'm saying that it's silly to be that concerned about carbs.
I can understand medical reasons, but not lifestyle-decisions in this topic.

[Sweet Murderer]

lCENSOREDI

I have provided two resources all ready, and in a moment I will post quoting everyone asking for my bibliography, so you can begin there. It's a work cited for a 10-page paper, so I believe I had somewhere along the lines of maybe 7-12 sources, at least one of which was used to support a counter-claim, but your denial of me being able to produce any is very strange, and I'm beginning to wonder if you did read the first post in its entirety.

But, I believe I see where you are getting confused in my meaning, although again it makes it seem as though you didn't read everything in the opening post:

This is not my meaning. I mentioned this Atkins 'induction'-style dieting and criticized it lightly, and openly stated fruits were necessary for us. What you are talking about is a kind of weight-loss diet, and you're right, it is extremist, and like I said, not really a good idea long-term.

The carbohydrates I am talking about on the whole are grains, more specifically wheat and processed grains, which usually make up for the majority of the carbs we as westerners eat, with some exception.

Fats from animals and tropical fruits have been linked to improved cholesterol, as well as they have been linked to having no effect on cholesterol. It tends to depend on who is publishing the study, but any number of factors can be attributed to the skewed result. The only solid thing we know is, there isn't any proof anywhere that fats negatively impact your cardiovascular health. I really recommend you watching fathead if you get the chance.

I can honestly tell you that I didn't read it all - I have bad eyesight.
I actually never commented on anything you wrote - I just started talking about a diet that is based on your thread title and your OP so that a discussion would start.

Then I can also add that I've many friends who've tried to find resources that would answer that particular question that I asked you and came to the conclusion that there are none, yet, for various reasons.

I never asked if you could prove that "fat is good" "carbs are bad", I pretty much know everything about that already. I was asking for a decent study made on people(70-80+) that have been strictly following a diet like LCHF their whole life, did they die of our biggest illnesses or not? What did they die of? Why did they develop aaa or bbb etc.

Only when we've come that far I think we should start eating minimal carbs - not now when we still don't know everything yet.

[MissyRuby]

It also comes down to the question of how on earth do we feed all 6 billion people? We are able to live off of a lot different things. Doesn't mean it's all good for us.

Back in the day white everything(bread, rice, pastries) got popular because it could be stored for long periods of time and even pests wouldn't touch it because of it's non-existing nutritional value. It also needs less work and money than for example farming animals.

[jadedrenee]

What I'd like to see is a study on different diets that includes mental health measurements as well - effect on mood stability, IQ, etc. Almost every study I see leaves out any mention of the nervous system in general or the brain specifically.

[lCENSOREDI]

Sweet Murderer

Only when we've come that far I think we should start eating minimal carbs - not now when we still don't know everything yet.

This still confuses me, because we are only eating carbs in excess because of research that is faulty or even less substantial than what we have in favor of high-fat.

Your current stance on health seems to be that what we learned in health class is the default, a safe position, but it's much younger than the diet we discuss here; meat and vegetables, in essence. We came upon these "standards" as a result of a largely political endeavor.

I really recommend watching the movie. It's all thoroughly covered.

Quote:

That's exactly why I'm saying that it's silly to be that concerned about carbs.
I can understand medical reasons, but not lifestyle-decisions in this topic.

the problem is you are arguing a point not challenged in this thread. No one here, that I can see, has mentioned the extreme dieting except for you and the poster you quoted.

[lCENSOREDI]

MissyRuby

It also comes down to the question of how on earth do we feed all 6 billion people? We are able to live off of a lot different things. Doesn't mean it's all good for us.

Back in the day white everything(bread, rice, pastries) got popular because it could be stored for long periods of time and even pests wouldn't touch it because of it's non-existing nutritional value. It also needs less work and money than for example farming animals.

That's a completely valid point. I don't know how much truth is to it, but I have read that if we started eating fewer grains, we simply would not be able to feed the billions of people on this earth. It doesn't sound at all far fetched, but it's a separate matter. At least in my mind, it's one thing to believe misinformation about what is good for us, and wish to continue in ignorance without venturing to find what is true than to know that we both cannot sustain our population properly and work at a solution for that.

[lCENSOREDI]

jadedrenee

What I'd like to see is a study on different diets that includes mental health measurements as well - effect on mood stability, IQ, etc. Almost every study I see leaves out any mention of the nervous system in general or the brain specifically.

I liked this observation.

I did see one small publishing on a study while doing research for my term paper, but I didn't use it and don't have the citation on hand. I will try and dig it back up.

Other than that, I have seen a few studies report on subjects' moods, attitudes towards the diets, and energy levels, most of which was inconsistent, but the only other information I have found on it is largely anecdotal or theoretical. I haven't heard anything about IQ at all, and I think that would also be interesting to know too.

[Sweet Murderer]

lCENSOREDI

Sweet Murderer

Only when we've come that far I think we should start eating minimal carbs - not now when we still don't know everything yet.

This still confuses me, because we are only eating carbs in excess because of research that is faulty or even less substantial than what we have in favor of high-fat.

Your current stance on health seems to be that what we learned in health class is the default, a safe position, but it's much younger than the diet we discuss here; meat and vegetables, in essence. We came upon these "standards" as a result of a largely political endeavor.

I really recommend watching the movie. It's all thoroughly covered.

Quote:

That's exactly why I'm saying that it's silly to be that concerned about carbs.
I can understand medical reasons, but not lifestyle-decisions in this topic.

the problem is you are arguing a point not challenged in this thread. No one here, that I can see, has mentioned the extreme dieting except for you and the poster you quoted.

Could you please enlighten me with what you actually want to discuss?
That fat is good/bad?
That protein is good/bad?
That carbs are good/bad?

I was only trying to make some sort of discussion based on the fact that people take those facts presented by you(fat is good, protein is good, white bread is going to murder you/forgive the joke) and others to extreme levels by doing dieting that doesn't have any proper scientific research done to it.

Unfortunately, I think you just haven't had much experience with this subject.
If you did you would know that the body can produce it's own carbs and is actually not dependent on other sources besides fat and protein. Also that carbs are "bad" because they stimulate insulin production - which makes it harder for the body to burn fat etc.

Which would you know, take the discussion up to way much more interesting levels than what you've presented so far.

As I said before: in Sweden we've come really far in this debate already, one who tries to avoid carbs as much as they can, another that eats it in moderate proportions, third that doesn't give a s**t and eat what they prefer.

[The Sky Does Not Bow]

jadedrenee

What I'd like to see is a study on different diets that includes mental health measurements as well - effect on mood stability, IQ, etc. Almost every study I see leaves out any mention of the nervous system in general or the brain specifically.

Going on a diet are bad for this reason. changing your diet so you eat more healthily is what you're supposed to do. Getting in/staying in shape is all about lifestyle. It's okay to cheat sometimes, too. In fact it's recommended.

[lCENSOREDI]

Sweet Murderer

Could you please enlighten me with what you actually want to discuss?

I don't know if you've bothered yet to read the first post since earlier when you said you haven't, but no one else seems to be confused...

Quote:

That fat is good/bad?
That protein is good/bad?
That carbs are good/bad?

You're looking at extremes, and I've repeatedly said this isn't the topic at hand.Good and bad are poor terms to use for nutrients in the first place, but to make them absolute won't make any since with any nutrient.

I stated fat was a necessary part of our diet, and that the common (possibly only American, like I said I have a limited knowledge of what other countries have in the way of nutritional guidelines) ideas on how much fat we should consume are misinformed, to say the least. In the States, they recommend around 5% of our diets be dietary fat.

I never really mentioned protein, I am not really aware of much controversy over it.

On carbs, I more or less say the opposite of what I do on fats; that our ideas are the opposite of what research says.

Quote:

I was only trying to make some sort of discussion based on the fact that people take those facts presented by you(fat is good, protein is good, white bread is going to murder you/forgive the joke) and others to extreme levels by doing dieting that doesn't have any proper scientific research done to it.

I provided research that was strictly peer-reviewed, published in scientific journals on both long- and short- term studies based on this subject matter, as well as a full book filled with the same. I'm not really sure what more you need, but the vast majority of the scientific community considers this "proper scientific research". Your ignoring it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Quote:

Unfortunately, I think you just haven't had much experience with this subject.

As I stated. I however have provided research to back my point up, and you lack anything except anecdotes about a diet of which my post reminded you.

Quote:

If you did you would know that the body can produce it's own carbs and is actually not dependent on other sources besides fat and protein. Also that carbs are "bad" because they stimulate insulin production - which makes it harder for the body to burn fat etc.

I state this in the first post.

Quote:

Which would you know, take the discussion up to way much more interesting levels than what you've presented so far.

You admit to not having even read what I have presented. You've asserted something near-arbitrary in place of my post, argued against that instead, and when I point out you're arguing against something only you brought up, you continue to argue it and then say you're trying to bring more interesting material to the table.

I would be happy to discuss extreme low carb diets further if that is what you want, but seeing as even in my first post I state that I don't really support that kind of carb restriction, it seems we stand in similar stances (possibly) and I'm not sure what you would like to explore. If you make that clear, then we can move from there.

[j3nnayboo]

Prrreeeach! You are DEFINITELY what you eat. :0

[Sweet Murderer]

lCENSOREDI

I would be happy to discuss extreme low carb diets further if that is what you want, but seeing as even in my first post I state that I don't really support that kind of carb restriction, it seems we stand in similar stances (possibly) and I'm not sure what you would like to explore. If you make that clear, then we can move from there.

Why do you eat carbs - when they are bad for you?
Why don't you support carb-restriction now that you've been enlightened with scientific facts?

I told you, several times, that I don't support carb-restriction to extreme levels because I still demand a whole lot of research made on a lifestyle like that(there've been no studies done on this).

I never said anything about fat being bad and carbs being good and what not - so your original post really had nothing to say to me - especially when you say that "carbs make us sick" and then "but eat them anyway - fruits are good for you". Seriously?
I did skim it - and nothing interesting stood there besides you writing a small and bad essay on the topic.