Circumcision (Rate if you're against it)

Are you for or against Circumcision?

No child should have their genitals cut by a knife.	76.5%	[ 39 ]
I support genital mutilation!	23.5%	[ 12 ]
Total Votes:			[ 51 ]

[Miragen]

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So is your argument that if someone has a trait that the majority has, it is good and should not be touched? However, if someone has a minority trait, they have a defect that should be corrected? Is that an accurate assessment of your argument?

Depends entirely on what it actually is, but in general having a trait that is highly uncommon tends to be negative, but it's upto the person with the trait to determine that for themselves.

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It is cosmetic for all practical purposes. The potential positive and negative consequences of circumcising or not circumcising are small enough, uncommon enough, and/or insignificant enough to have no real bearing on the decision.

Since we concluded there is no actual benefit for cutting off a part of your infants body, I fail to understand your reasoning for mindlessly doing it anyways: because that's what parents do, parents mutilate their childs for no reason, with no purpose, but no one cares because parents you know.

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Poetry.

Now that we have established that each of us can say random words as if they are authoritative, do you have an actual argument?

How is religion not an argument, the insane amount of religious people in America, religion that has no reason to exist in the modern era, with the abundance of evidence that the religion is pulled straight of someone's a**, then eaten by someone else and what came out of their a** is what the religion really is.
The only reason it exists in this day and age is the endlessly passing on from parents to child, to their child, and no one knows any better because that's what they have been told all their lives, with the few exceptions that started to think for themselves.

There is a reason why christianity has set their targets on young children, their minds are easily sculpted, believing in fairytales like santa claus and the easter bunny, thinking the tooth fairy gives them money.

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I agree with you. However, parents are children's proxies before the age of 18, so the decision falls to them. They decide when to cut their children's hair, trim their nails, remove moles, repair what you call "defects," and whether to circumcise.

Cutting the hair is not a life changing decision, it only affects months at best, same with cutting nails or other things that do not affect the functioning of the human body.
Opting for circumcision is not making a decision, there was never a need to make that choice, it's an act that has no actual foundation as to why it's being performed, it was never a question to do, or to not do a circumcision, it's knowingly and purposely mutilating.

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So your position is that if there is no reason to do something, it should be illegal? That makes no sense. The default should be that if there is no reason for or against something, then the decision whether to do it or not should be up to the person making the decision.

Are you claiming now that there is no difference between circumcision as an infant and circumcision as an adult?

I said nothing about it being legal or illegal other than the act of circumcision is infact illegal here, which is not related to this statement.
I never said that if there is no reason to do something, it should be illegal.
Either way there still is no reason to perform a circumcision, even though there is reason not to do it.
The difference between infant or adult circumcision is that the person who is the owner of the body part, who has to spend his entire life with said body part is given to opportunity to make the decision about his own body, and is not left with the consequences of an irrational and needless decision made for him whilst he was unable to object.

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If there is no reason to do it or not do it, then the informed consent must fall to the one who has the ability to consent, correct?

Fact of the matter being is that there is reason not to do it, but no reason to do it.

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Again, parents force their preferences on their children all the time. They make all the decisions for their children for several years. That is what parents do.

Sure, i'm not saying they don't, but as a parent, what kind of business do you have with someone else their p***s? Even if it's your son.
You don't put a tattoo of your favorite band on your child either, same thing if I follow your claims of it being purely cosmetic.

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If it is ancient then it must be barbaric?

Not at all, it just happens to be both.

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You are just repeating over and over again that it is barbaric mutilation without giving a single reason why your opinion that it is barbaric mutilation should be forced on everyone else. What if someone else considers both sides and *gasp* concludes that it is not barbaric mutilation?

It doesn't matter what they may or may not think, it's about what the person thinks for who the decision is made, because you think it's okay doesn't mean everyone else will, and since you are unable to know what the child thinks of it, it is wrong to pretend that he agrees with you.
What if your son is one of the people who considers it barbaric?
-Well i'm sorry son, that you have to spend your entire life living with this because i'm a selfish b*****d who forced his personal opinion upon you for no good reason, robbing you of the freedom to make your own decision.
Everyone is allowed to have their own opinions, which is why we are having this endless discussion in the first place, only in your world your son will have agree with you on everything you say, without giving him the freedom to make this choice for himself.

America, land of the not so free.

[Crunchy Guava]

I guess you can say I am against it. If my daughter was born a boy I would not have gotten a circumcision.
My fiance also said he wished he was uncircumcised.

[Mooby the Golden Sock]

Miragen

Depends entirely on what it actually is, but in general having a trait that is highly uncommon tends to be negative, but it's upto the person with the trait to determine that for themselves.

I agree with your principle, though I do not think "uncommon" should be a factor. It should be up to the person or their healthcare proxies to determine which cosmetic traits they have that are negative, common or not. You, on the other hand, are trying to set aside a subsection of traits that you think should be exempt from that determination, where you paternalistically decide when someone should be able to decide for themselves and when they should be barred from deciding.

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Since we concluded there is no actual benefit for cutting off a part of your infants body, I fail to understand your reasoning for mindlessly doing it anyways: because that's what parents do, parents mutilate their childs for no reason, with no purpose, but no one cares because parents you know.

I am not reasoning to do it "mindlessly," nor am I reasoning to "do it anyways." You are attacking a straw man of my position.

On the subject of "mindlessly," you are mistaken. I believe that circumcision should require informed consent by a healthcare proxy, and I would encourage anyone considering it to carefully weigh the potential risks and benefits before consenting to the procedure. So, in reality my position is exactly the opposite of your straw man, because I believe the decision whether to circumcise or not should be made mindfully.

On the subject of "do it anyways," you are mistaken. I am not advocating that parents circumcise their children. I am advocating that the decision be left to the parents, not to you. Thus, my position is not, "Do it anyways." My position is, "Do it if you want to, after you have carefully considered both options."

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How is religion not an argument

An argument is a series of connected statements used to establish a proposition. A single word such as "religion" is not an argument. There is no series of statements (it's barely a single statement.) There is no logic connecting the statements. There is no logical connection of the statements to the proposition. There is not even the most feeble attempt to link the statement to the conclusion. In short, it's not an argument in every sense of the word "argument."

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the insane amount of religious people in America

That's no surprise; America is one of the largest countries in the world. Or were you referring to the percentage of religious people in America?

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religion that has no reason to exist in the modern era

What is the evidence that religion has no reason to exist in the modern era?

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with the abundance of evidence that the religion is pulled straight of someone's a**, then eaten by someone else and what came out of their a** is what the religion really is.

What is this evidence that you are referring to, exactly?

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I agree with you. However, parents are children's proxies before the age of 18, so the decision falls to them. They decide when to cut their children's hair, trim their nails, remove moles, repair what you call "defects," and whether to circumcise.

Cutting the hair is not a life changing decision, it only affects months at best, same with cutting nails or other things that do not affect the functioning of the human body.

What about removing moles or repairing "defects?" Do these too only last for months at best?

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Opting for circumcision is not making a decision

It isn't? Are you sure you understand what a "decision" is? Are you aware that making a decision is basically the definition of the word "opt?"

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there was never a need to make that choice

There often are not needs to make a choice. For instance, you and I don't need to keep replying to this thread, but we are choosing to do it anyways.

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it's an act that has no actual foundation as to why it's being performed

Of course there is a foundation, people have cited plenty of reasons doing it over the years, and I doubt there are many who choose to consent to it without having a foundation for the choice.

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it was never a question to do, or to not do a circumcision

Clearly it is a question because this thread exists.

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it's knowingly and purposely mutilating.

No, it's not mutilating. Mutilation requires a disfiguring injury, such as throwing acid on a face or sewing labia shut to remove function. Cutting a p***s off or sticking it in a grinder would be mutilation. Removing a bit of excess skin is not mutilation.

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The difference between infant or adult circumcision is that the person who is the owner of the body part, who has to spend his entire life with said body part is given to opportunity to make the decision about his own body, and is not left with the consequences of an irrational and needless decision made for him whilst he was unable to object.

If you don't like the decisions your parents made for you growing up, sue them. Otherwise, I respect a parent's right to act as a child's healthcare proxy.

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If there is no reason to do it or not do it, then the informed consent must fall to the one who has the ability to consent, correct?

Fact of the matter being is that there is reason not to do it, but no reason to do it.

What is the reason not to do it?

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Sure, i'm not saying they don't, but as a parent, what kind of business do you have with someone else their p***s? Even if it's your son.
You don't put a tattoo of your favorite band on your child either, same thing if I follow your claims of it being purely cosmetic.

If a parent wants to put a tattoo on their child, I have no problem with it.

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If it is ancient then it must be barbaric?

Not at all, it just happens to be both.

Then why point out that it's ancient if it was not intended to be pejorative?

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It doesn't matter what they may or may not think, it's about what the person thinks for who the decision is made, because you think it's okay doesn't mean everyone else will, and since you are unable to know what the child thinks of it, it is wrong to pretend that he agrees with you.

Ok, ok. Parents should ask the infant if he disagrees. If he gives no clear written response, then they can assume assent.

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What if your son is one of the people who considers it barbaric?

Then he should sue me as soon as he turns 18.

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Everyone is allowed to have their own opinions, which is why we are having this endless discussion in the first place, only in your world your son will have agree with you on everything you say, without giving him the freedom to make this choice for himself.

So wait, let me get this 100% straight.

Your argument is:
Miragen wants to make the decision how to parent your kid for you. This is freedom.
Mooby wants you to make the decision how to parent your kid yourself. Thus, he is doing your thinking for you and you are not free.

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America, land of the not so free.

In your country, a person who does not want their kid circumcised is free to make that decision, but one who wants their kid circumcised is not.

In my country, a person who does not want their kid circumcised is free to make that decision, and a person who does want their kid circumcised is also free to make that decision.

I believe that would make America more free than your country on the topic of circumcision. I do find it funny that you call restricting someone from doing something "freedom" and allowing them to do it "not so free." Do you not understand what the word "free" means?

[Miragen]

Mooby the Golden Sock

We can speed go through this a lot faster if you stop disecting the things I say and pull everything out of context instead of adressing the whole text at once.

Long story short, aslong as there is no benefit in the terms of health or whatever, anything, there is no logical explanation for circumcision, and it comes down to circumcising your child, because your dad the same thing, and that is what I disagree with.

It is officially listed here as mutilation, and you can infact sue your parents, but very little people do that and there is no real point in doing so since no matter the outcome, their decision was irreversable.

And the freedom part applies to others having the freedom to decide over you, rather than you having the freedom to decide for yourself, there is a big difference in that, and I don't know about you, but I like the 2nd kind of freedom a lot more.
There is no point in freedom if that freedom is used against you.

And quite frankly, if you think it's okay to tattoo your child I have no further business with you, your morals and values are thus far apart from mine that there is no point in continueing our discussion.

[Matadair]

If our daughters can manage to keep their private parts clean, so can our sons. There is no need to cut anything off to make it "cleaner". Question circumcision. www.wholenetwork.org

[Mooby the Golden Sock]

Miragen

And quite frankly, if you think it's okay to tattoo your child I have no further business with you, your morals and values are thus far apart from mine that there is no point in continueing our discussion.

I accept your concession.

[bear eating a salmon]

you're missing the "i don't care" option in your poll.
Not all of us are on opposite ends on the spectrum.
I really couldn't care less.

[padagira]

I am circumcised. I was circumcised when I was 12 as an initiation to manhood. When my son turns 12, he will be circumcised as well.
I can get an erection just fine. I have pleasure having sex.

Men these days are becoming weak and useless. If you cannot even stand the pain of having a little foreskin cut, how are you going to protect a woman and your family? Men these day are a disgrace.

[padagira]

Matadair

If our daughters can manage to keep their private parts clean, so can our sons. There is no need to cut anything off to make it "cleaner". Question circumcision. www.wholenetwork.org

A girl has a v****a and a boy has a p***s. They have two completely different structures.

[padagira]

Long John Halford

Anyone with respect for their child would question circumcision, and avoid mutilating their child. Let the child choose it for himself when he's older. And let's not forget, the 'it's cleaner' excuse is absolute bullshit. Like any other part of the body, the p***s will get dirty if it's not cleaned. As long as you have good hygiene, you'll be fine.

What about woman who pierce their daughter's ears?
That is mutilation.
How is that any worse than circumcision?

I also hate the generalization that circumcision happens to babies only.
My circumcision, an initiation from boyhood to manhood, happened when I was 12, as it does in most cultures, with the exception of Judaism, which makes a relatively small portion of the circumcised population.

[padagira]

Boulivar

Circumcision is an religious practice that provides no health benefits. The idea of mutilating body parts is ridiculous. I'm not religious but for those of you who are religious: If God wanted all males to be circumcised, he could have designed males to not have a foreskin on their p***s. What's even more ridiculous is female circumcision. In some culture, women have their clitoris removed. As for all the creepy doctors that specialize in circumcision, they are all *****. In some culture, the p***s is kissed prior to the circumcision

I hate when people associate God with circumcision.
I am not of Christian, Jewish, or Muslim faith. I am circumcised.
The practice of circumcision dates back 60000 years in Australia. Judaism goes back 4000 years.
The people of the Middle East were practicing circumcision before Judaism. When the main religion changed from whatever it was back then to Judaism, Judaism adapted the practice of circumcision. Christianity adapts it as well, but is practiced more culturally than religiously. In America or Europe, Christians who decide to circumcise their sons do so at birth. In the Philippines, a very Catholic area, circumcision happens around the time of puberty. Circumcision is not required in Christianity and is a strictly cultural practice.
In Islam, circumcision happens around puberty.
Circumcision was also practiced in South America long before Judaism.

[padagira]

Miragen

I see no valid reason for circumcision, and it is considered as mutiliation here.

Feeding your children unhealthy foods high in sugars and low in nutrients affects brain development.
Putting your child on Ritalin because he's bored and hyper causes lasting effects on the brain.
That to me seems more dangerous than snipping off a little foreskin.

[padagira]

Miragen

Mooby the Golden Sock

I'm for circumcision just to piss off those who are against it.

There are a couple of medical and hygiene arguments for it. They're really not all that significant. There are a couple of medical arguments against it. They're really not all that significant, either. It's really more of a cosmetic thing.

A cosmetic thing, so let's perform cosmetic surgery on our son because I like the way his d**k looks that way?

I believe in American culture, it is normal to pierce one's baby daughter's ears for cosmetic reasons.

[Miragen]

pbtdkg

Miragen

I see no valid reason for circumcision, and it is considered as mutiliation here.

Feeding your children unhealthy foods high in sugars and low in nutrients affects brain development.
Putting your child on Ritalin because he's bored and hyper causes lasting effects on the brain.
That to me seems more dangerous than snipping off a little foreskin.

It was never about danger, even though there are possibly complications.
But no, it was about doing something for no good reason at all.

[padagira]

Miragen

pbtdkg

Miragen

I see no valid reason for circumcision, and it is considered as mutiliation here.

Feeding your children unhealthy foods high in sugars and low in nutrients affects brain development.
Putting your child on Ritalin because he's bored and hyper causes lasting effects on the brain.
That to me seems more dangerous than snipping off a little foreskin.

It was never about danger, even though there are possibly complications.
But no, it was about doing something for no good reason at all.

Is their a good reason to feed your child sugary drinks and processed foods?