Snape and Lupin, bad characters?

[Sianserais]

Lastrael Rahnawyn

Rowling threw a twist at her readers that none of them seemed to expect.

I wouldn't say that. Some of us always believed Snape had to be loyal. Certain things didn't really make sense, otherwise.

[iSaibot]

The reason why these characters are so good is because they're tragic. It's not that Snape's good at heart. It's that he's willing to become an anti-villain because of his love for Lily.

[Her Name Was Dude]

chrysanths

You take the breath right out of me.
You left a hole where my heart should be.

ςɦɾɣʂαɳȶɧʂ
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I hate the fandom. We have a tenancy of ignoring horrible character traits and making these people out to be better than they are.

Snape and Lupin are the best examples.

Snape tried to get a childhood enemy (that he was fully aware was innocent) kissed by a Dementor, and basically sucked up to Fudge for an Order of Merlin.

Lupin: Neglected to talk about hidden Hogwarts passageways and that Snuffles was a dog animagi. If Sirius Black really were a murderer, Harry would have died.

This is just in book three, by the way. Not even going into Snape's refusal to get the Order to go to the Ministry earlier (OotP), or Lupin's abandonment of his wife and unborn son (DH).

Why do we like these characters again? lol
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{Questy!}

You got to fight just to make it through,
'cause I will be the death of you.

Ok first off let's start with Professor Snape. Snape rightfully tried to get Black kissed because in their years at Hogwarts Black was a bully. In fact bully doesn't even fully cover it. HE SENT HIM TO A WEREWOLF! Hello? Black knew Lupin would not be able to control himself and still sent Snape down there to his death. And then Dumbles just brushes it off like he simply put a "kick me" sign on Snape back.
Secondly, Snape is a double agent, HELLO?! He just can't go off all willy nilly. If he did then Voldemort would question his true loyalty.
Now onto Lupin. If he did come out with the hidden passages then that would open up a lot of questions of his past. Also Harry did not tell any one besides Herminoe and Ron about seeing "The Grim" or Black in dog form. let us assume that he did tell Dumbledore, because, honestly he would. Dumbledore had to know everything including hidden passages and Padfoot.
Lupin only left his wife and son because he was afraid for their own safety. He didn't leave because he was selfish or didn't love them. He loved them so much that the thought of them going through hell because of him, he could not stand.
Really a person who is treated like a hero but should not be is Albus Dumbledore. He could have taken so many steps to prevent Tom Riddle from becoming Lord Voldemort. But he didn't. He always didn't tell Harry ANYTHING he needed to know and could have saved many from death.
Dumbledore could have also stopped all the bullying in Snapes childhood. He could have placed Harry with a better family. Or at least sent somebody to visit every now and then. But he didn't. Because people trust his opinion and we already know he is power hungry. In a sense he is no better than Lord Voldemort.
So why is he the hero?

[Purple Cyphers]

You swore and said
"We are not
We are not shining stars"
This I know
I never said we are

chrysanths

I hate the fandom. We have a tenancy of ignoring horrible character traits and making these people out to be better than they are.

Snape and Lupin are the best examples.

Snape tried to get a childhood enemy (that he was fully aware was innocent) kissed by a Dementor, and basically sucked up to Fudge for an Order of Merlin.

Lupin: Neglected to talk about hidden Hogwarts passageways and that Snuffles was a dog animagi. If Sirius Black really were a murderer, Harry would have died.

This is just in book three, by the way. Not even going into Snape's refusal to get the Order to go to the Ministry earlier (OotP), or Lupin's abandonment of his wife and unborn son (DH).

Why do we like these characters again?

The reason why some find them interesting is because they are realistic.

Lupin's reasons for not giving Dumbledore information on the passages is suspect, but he probably wanted to confront Black himself, since he had doubts about the whole debacle. He also had a condition he wouldn't wish on his worse enemy and the prospect of his child being cursed as he was too much, hence why he ran. Harry set him straight and he went back, which shows that he is, under it all, a good man.

Snape wanted justice for the attempted homicide Black committed against him when they were in school, if you missed that bit. He was most definitely not 'sucking up' to Fudge, he wanted someone who could go over Dumbledore's head to treat Black as the criminal he did, even if the crime he would have been sentenced wasn't the same one Snape felt he deserved punishment for. Yes, that last bit is immature, but no less immature than Black never feeling any regret for his actions, which he does admit. Also, Snape did notify the Order, in both going to Grimmauld Place and contacting other members, as testament to Black's statement when he meets up with the DA, saying he left even though he was told about what Harry said, seeing him already there, and felt he was needed, even though Dumbledore told him not to leave Headquarters under any circumstances.

Everything you've said about Snape and Lupin are both explained in the books, which makes me think you need to read the books, because its obvious a film adaptation isn't going to incorporate everything from the books, even if these scenes were, in some small way, included in the films.

I am not saying that these men, and many other characters in the series, are flawed, but not everyone automatically hates a person for having flaws, that would be hypocritical. Everyone has flaws, and the depth of this series is obvious in having every character be flawed in some way. That's not to say there aren't the people in any fandom, not just this one, who miss those things, who see everything in black and white instead of the grey it really is, but that doesn't change the facts, and I hope you can see that. That is part of what makes this series so intricate, interesting, and timeless.

eevee_axd

I'm not really sure which hidden Hogwarts passageways you are referring to but Lupin doesn't have horrible character traits.

As for abandoning his wife and child will you please remind me of when this happens?

Lupin was one of the Mauradars, who created the Map that insults Snape and is taken by Lupin as a 'suspicious dark artefact', but didn't tell Dumbledore about this map. Funny thing people forget sometimes is that the Headmaster, at over 150 years old, probably knew the layout, passages both secret and not, the Room of Requirement, and everything in between, possibly including where certain people are throughout the castle at any given time, although not in the way the Map can.

The scenario of Lupin abandoning Tonks after finding out she's pregnant happened in Chapter 11 of Deathly Hallows, where Harry bitches at him about what a horrible thing he's doing, leaving Tonks and their child over unsubstantiated fears. As revealed in Chapter 25, the man rethinks his actions over Christmas, returning to Tonks and finding out that their son inherited her Gifts and not his Curse.

Hope that helps you.

If you're lost and alone
Or you're sinking like a stone
Carry on
May your past be the sound
Of your feet upon the ground
Carry on

[Sianserais]

Her Name Was Dude

Ok first off let's start with Professor Snape. Snape rightfully tried to get Black kissed because in their years at Hogwarts Black was a bully. In fact bully doesn't even fully cover it. HE SENT HIM TO A WEREWOLF! Hello? Black knew Lupin would not be able to control himself and still sent Snape down there to his death. And then Dumbles just brushes it off like he simply put a "kick me" sign on Snape back.
Secondly, Snape is a double agent, HELLO?! He just can't go off all willy nilly. If he did then Voldemort would question his true loyalty.
Now onto Lupin. If he did come out with the hidden passages then that would open up a lot of questions of his past. Also Harry did not tell any one besides Herminoe and Ron about seeing "The Grim" or Black in dog form. let us assume that he did tell Dumbledore, because, honestly he would. Dumbledore had to know everything including hidden passages and Padfoot.
Lupin only left his wife and son because he was afraid for their own safety. He didn't leave because he was selfish or didn't love them. He loved them so much that the thought of them going through hell because of him, he could not stand.
Really a person who is treated like a hero but should not be is Albus Dumbledore. He could have taken so many steps to prevent Tom Riddle from becoming Lord Voldemort. But he didn't. He always didn't tell Harry ANYTHING he needed to know and could have saved many from death.
Dumbledore could have also stopped all the bullying in Snapes childhood. He could have placed Harry with a better family. Or at least sent somebody to visit every now and then. But he didn't. Because people trust his opinion and we already know he is power hungry. In a sense he is no better than Lord Voldemort.
So why is he the hero?

One of the theories I've played with is that Dumbledore is sort of a stand-in for God. Just because he could interfere in matters doesn't mean that that's necessarily what's best in the long run (or so the faithful often say). He doesn't stand in the way of free-will. Interestingly, this would also cast Snape in the roll of the Satan (in the original meaning of the angel whose job it is to test mankind).
In any case, he had to be careful about what he told Harry if he suspected that he and Riddle were connected, he might not have had any say in where the boy was placed (one might assume wizards had laws on the matter, as muggles do), and if he still was that power-hungry, he could have taken the position of Minister when he had the chance. Not to mention he did give his life to protect Draco and Snape.
Personally, I'm a bit ambivalent about the guy, but I can't hate him.