I hate James Potter.

[[Ren The Ryoko]]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

Brilwen

I Solemnly Swear

I hate him to, the only thing decent he did was trying to protect his family.

Like Snape said James was a swine.

That I Am Up To No Good

And you know:
- Saved Snape's life
- Took in Sirius when he ran away from home
- Financially supported Remus when he couldn't work after he got out of school
- Gave Lily a loving home
- Worked for the Order and tried to defeat Voldemort

And it's not like Snape EVER did anything dickish, right?
Like....oh....
-Develop dark and dangerous magic in school
- Try to use that dark magic on James
- Call every muggleborn in the school but Lily "mudblood"
- Call Lily "mudblood"
- Try find out where Remus was in order to get in him trouble
- Join the Death Eaters
- Make a branch fall on Pentuina to scare and hurt her
- Inadvertently cause Lily's death
- Bully and torment Neville for no reason, including threatening to poison and kill his pet
- Bully and mock Hermione for trying to participate in his class
- Bully and humiliate Harry for no reason at all
- Try to get Remus fired from his job

Forgot to add.

Harry is a terrible student. He has stolen, cheated, copied off hermonie, been deleberatly distrptive during class, was lazy as all s**t, cast an unforgivable, has been a d**k. Always blames everything on everything else and everyone elsebbut himself. And because everyone else always kisses his a** and lets him get away with stuff, he quickly learns that nothing is his fault. And let's not forget his filter. Just because snape doesn't kiss his a** doesn't make him bad. Remember Harry is biased, for instance, Sirius was ugly when he was bad then became attractive when he was good. Who's to say he's just making snape to be worse then he really is? We wont know until we get a true neutral narrator. But I forgot, Gryffindors are saints and Harry is blameless not matter what. Silly me.

And I hues you didn't notice but every teacher has been mean to the students. The school is abusive towards pets in general and snapes toad incident is not the only case of pet abuse by a
teacher. Oh but my bad, only sane can be a bad teacher, not anyone else.

1. He made spells that healed and some that hurt. We don't know if he used them but we know the marauders did. And they did hurt others other then snape.

2. James used Hexes and dark magic too but apparently that's ok.

3. When do we see this? We only have her word and she is the same chick who was trying not to smile as her friend was being de pansed in front of everyone.

4. He's a ******** werewolf running free during the night. Yeah not dangerous at all.

5. Ever heard of accidental magic? Its that wonderful s**t that young kids get that causes accidents. He was pissed and his emotions made the branch fall, its not his fault.

6. Since the 'good' side did nothing but treat him like s**t, I'm not suprised he did join them.

7. Peters fault mostly. He was the secret keeper and if he hadn't had told voldy the place that they were staying then voldy wouldnt have found them. But that's ok because Gryffindors never get blamed.

8. Lol, that was Remus' fault. HE didn't take HIS potion and HE endangered and almost killed the trio. HE let sirius into the castle and HE as at fault. He showed that he was lazy and couldn't be trusted. Snape was in the right because remus was dangerous.

9. Neville is inept at almost every class. His grandmother threw him out of a window to see if he was a squib or not. This caused his anxiety. Anyways, potions is dangerous after all, they are working with materials that can blow up and kill you. Your a fool to think that potions isn't one of the most dangerous classes in Hogwarts. Snape doesn't need a kid who cant even mix s**t correctly, he's got enough on his plate. And don't forget that Minerva left him out of the dorm in the third book when sirius was running around. But that's ok because gryffindors are never wrong.

10. Yeah, the teeth comment was uncalled for. But this is assuming that snape isn't emotionally stunted and is stressed to s**t. In the third book his jobs were: remus' class, his class, head of house, making wolfsbane, protecting potter, protecting the trio, etc. Out of all the characters he has the most s**t to do and gets no thanks for it. Yah, I'd be pissed too,


I just love how James defenders will brush everything snape did that was good as an adult under the rug. So cute. You know who says snape retaliated when he was a child? The Marauders.

The same Marauders who bullied him and who told us when asked why they were picking on him "he exists if you know what I mean" so what is it? Because he exists or because he's teh evils? We need a neutral narrator. However the pensive scenes are neutral because we see how it happens. Pensive memories are always in the third person, look it up.

And JK told us why he went after snape and why snape joined the death eaters. Ready?

James picked on snape because he wanted lily, that's it.

Snape joined the death eaters because he wanted to be accepted. Thats it.

Snape more then redeemed himself and the ultimate proof is the last book when he still does dumbledores s**t, helps potter out, while spying, and dies alone in a pool of his own blood and dies being hated by everyone. Oh and INB4 he's selfish or whatever. Well snape had ulitmate control, he could have disobeyed a painting but he didn't and a selfish man does not give up 16+ years of his life and receive NOTHING in return.

God damn this is why I hate the Gryffindors and fans like you in general. Everything with you guys is so black and white. You don't even care that there is a Harry filter and thus bias, you don't try and look into why snape is like he is, you don't care, it's just: Gryffindor =good because they do a few good deeds and Slytherin =bad no matter how much he does and suffers.

God I hate this fandom.

-face/palm-
I'm not a Gryffindor (Hufflepuff, actually). I'm not Anti-Slytherin (Almos all of my favorite characters are Slytherins in fact; Draco, Regulus Black, Lucius), I don't think that Gryffindors are automatically right (Of course not, actually. Look at Peter. Look at all the times that Harry made incorrect assumptions. Look at the mistakes Dumbledore made).
I don't even think that Snape was THAT bad of a person. (Though I do take issue with the way he bullied his students as an adult in a very big way)

In fact, I was arguing what YOU claim to be arguing: That things are NOT black and white.
That we learn about most of the characters through a lot of bias and filters. Harry's filter, Snape's filter. This is all second hand information, and we only understand it as our narrators understood it. And even then, there is no clear cut "good" and "Bad" for MOST of the characters.

That Snape is not an evil person, but he is also not a saint.
James is not some slimy b*****d, but he was also flawed.

Now, I COULD go through your points one by one, and point out how a lot of your statements don't account for all the facts, or in fact are built totally off assumptions, and exhibit and impressive double standard, but I'd really rather not. Because that's not the point.

I'm sorry if I'm not willing to simply IGNORE all of Snape's flaws because he did some good.
But I would think that if that's what you want, you might be willing to over look some of James and the other's mistakes on the same principle.

[angrydaphne123]

OMG people the movien harry potter is the cooloest movie iv watched in my whole life imnot kidding

[kraglin-obfonteri]

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

Brilwen

I Solemnly Swear

I hate him to, the only thing decent he did was trying to protect his family.

Like Snape said James was a swine.

That I Am Up To No Good

And you know:
- Saved Snape's life
- Took in Sirius when he ran away from home
- Financially supported Remus when he couldn't work after he got out of school
- Gave Lily a loving home
- Worked for the Order and tried to defeat Voldemort

And it's not like Snape EVER did anything dickish, right?
Like....oh....
-Develop dark and dangerous magic in school
- Try to use that dark magic on James
- Call every muggleborn in the school but Lily "mudblood"
- Call Lily "mudblood"
- Try find out where Remus was in order to get in him trouble
- Join the Death Eaters
- Make a branch fall on Pentuina to scare and hurt her
- Inadvertently cause Lily's death
- Bully and torment Neville for no reason, including threatening to poison and kill his pet
- Bully and mock Hermione for trying to participate in his class
- Bully and humiliate Harry for no reason at all
- Try to get Remus fired from his job

Forgot to add.

Harry is a terrible student. He has stolen, cheated, copied off hermonie, been deleberatly distrptive during class, was lazy as all s**t, cast an unforgivable, has been a d**k. Always blames everything on everything else and everyone elsebbut himself. And because everyone else always kisses his a** and lets him get away with stuff, he quickly learns that nothing is his fault. And let's not forget his filter. Just because snape doesn't kiss his a** doesn't make him bad. Remember Harry is biased, for instance, Sirius was ugly when he was bad then became attractive when he was good. Who's to say he's just making snape to be worse then he really is? We wont know until we get a true neutral narrator. But I forgot, Gryffindors are saints and Harry is blameless not matter what. Silly me.

And I hues you didn't notice but every teacher has been mean to the students. The school is abusive towards pets in general and snapes toad incident is not the only case of pet abuse by a
teacher. Oh but my bad, only sane can be a bad teacher, not anyone else.

1. He made spells that healed and some that hurt. We don't know if he used them but we know the marauders did. And they did hurt others other then snape.

2. James used Hexes and dark magic too but apparently that's ok.

3. When do we see this? We only have her word and she is the same chick who was trying not to smile as her friend was being de pansed in front of everyone.

4. He's a ******** werewolf running free during the night. Yeah not dangerous at all.

5. Ever heard of accidental magic? Its that wonderful s**t that young kids get that causes accidents. He was pissed and his emotions made the branch fall, its not his fault.

6. Since the 'good' side did nothing but treat him like s**t, I'm not suprised he did join them.

7. Peters fault mostly. He was the secret keeper and if he hadn't had told voldy the place that they were staying then voldy wouldnt have found them. But that's ok because Gryffindors never get blamed.

8. Lol, that was Remus' fault. HE didn't take HIS potion and HE endangered and almost killed the trio. HE let sirius into the castle and HE as at fault. He showed that he was lazy and couldn't be trusted. Snape was in the right because remus was dangerous.

9. Neville is inept at almost every class. His grandmother threw him out of a window to see if he was a squib or not. This caused his anxiety. Anyways, potions is dangerous after all, they are working with materials that can blow up and kill you. Your a fool to think that potions isn't one of the most dangerous classes in Hogwarts. Snape doesn't need a kid who cant even mix s**t correctly, he's got enough on his plate. And don't forget that Minerva left him out of the dorm in the third book when sirius was running around. But that's ok because gryffindors are never wrong.

10. Yeah, the teeth comment was uncalled for. But this is assuming that snape isn't emotionally stunted and is stressed to s**t. In the third book his jobs were: remus' class, his class, head of house, making wolfsbane, protecting potter, protecting the trio, etc. Out of all the characters he has the most s**t to do and gets no thanks for it. Yah, I'd be pissed too,


I just love how James defenders will brush everything snape did that was good as an adult under the rug. So cute. You know who says snape retaliated when he was a child? The Marauders.

The same Marauders who bullied him and who told us when asked why they were picking on him "he exists if you know what I mean" so what is it? Because he exists or because he's teh evils? We need a neutral narrator. However the pensive scenes are neutral because we see how it happens. Pensive memories are always in the third person, look it up.

And JK told us why he went after snape and why snape joined the death eaters. Ready?

James picked on snape because he wanted lily, that's it.

Snape joined the death eaters because he wanted to be accepted. Thats it.

Snape more then redeemed himself and the ultimate proof is the last book when he still does dumbledores s**t, helps potter out, while spying, and dies alone in a pool of his own blood and dies being hated by everyone. Oh and INB4 he's selfish or whatever. Well snape had ulitmate control, he could have disobeyed a painting but he didn't and a selfish man does not give up 16+ years of his life and receive NOTHING in return.

God damn this is why I hate the Gryffindors and fans like you in general. Everything with you guys is so black and white. You don't even care that there is a Harry filter and thus bias, you don't try and look into why snape is like he is, you don't care, it's just: Gryffindor =good because they do a few good deeds and Slytherin =bad no matter how much he does and suffers.

God I hate this fandom.

-face/palm-
I'm not a Gryffindor (Hufflepuff, actually). I'm not Anti-Slytherin (Almos all of my favorite characters are Slytherins in fact; Draco, Regulus Black, Lucius), I don't think that Gryffindors are automatically right (Of course not, actually. Look at Peter. Look at all the times that Harry made incorrect assumptions. Look at the mistakes Dumbledore made).
I don't even think that Snape was THAT bad of a person. (Though I do take issue with the way he bullied his students as an adult in a very big way)

In fact, I was arguing what YOU claim to be arguing: That things are NOT black and white.
That we learn about most of the characters through a lot of bias and filters. Harry's filter, Snape's filter. This is all second hand information, and we only understand it as our narrators understood it. And even then, there is no clear cut "good" and "Bad" for MOST of the characters.

That Snape is not an evil person, but he is also not a saint.
James is not some slimy b*****d, but he was also flawed.

Now, I COULD go through your points one by one, and point out how a lot of your statements don't account for all the facts, or in fact are built totally off assumptions, and exhibit and impressive double standard, but I'd really rather not. Because that's not the point.

I'm sorry if I'm not willing to simply IGNORE all of Snape's flaws because he did some good.
But I would think that if that's what you want, you might be willing to over look some of James and the other's mistakes on the same principle.

Well Im a slytherin (according to pottermore. And Hufflepuff is ******** awesome. Its one of my fave houses.

Snapes filter (the pensive) is not biased. We know for a fact that the pensieve shows a memory exactly as it happens. In third person. So what snape saw actually happened as we see it.

They do account for the fact and they arnt assumptions. Let me explain.

Harry, in the books, does copy off hermonie. We are told this happens. He does cheat, he does steal he does cast an unforgivable he is lazy sometimes he does not try in some classes and he does get away with way too many things. All of this is in the books or at least the British version which I have.

Teachers HAVE been mean to the students. Mcgonnigal DID leave neville out side in the third book after he lost the password. Again. Filius has said mean things and sprout has been somewhat mean too. Snape is not the only one who is mean.

Snape made six spells. One that is a counter curse, a curse, a hex, a spell that makes a faint buzzing in your ear, another spell and a charm? or is it a spell or hex? and some other thing. And again, making and interested does not equal doing. Plus they wernt all bad spells, hel even the marauders stole one of his spells.

James and his pals did use dark magic. Hexes and curses are dark, in my opinion, because they hurt people. And yes, he did say, in the books "because he exists if you know what I mean" in regards to snape. I need to know more about james.

I'm sorry but I need more then just lily's word. And it is stated, in the books, that she was trying not to smile as he was being stripped. I will however acknowledge that although snape didn't, in my opinion, say mudblood all the time, he certinally didn't stop his 'friends' from saying it. Which was wrong of him. I can tell you the page but I need to know what copy you have. The British version or the US version? they are both different regarding length.

fine, but hes curious. Might as well get them expelled. But don't worry, he paid for it.

The accidental magic is true. You see when kids are young and they get angry or sad or happy their magic does things. With Minerva she was able to make things move and come to her when she was a baby. With lily she could slow down her falling and with Severus he made a branch fall and possibly do other things. But he was angry and I still believe that it was an accident.

I'm not saying joining them was right I'm just saying I'm not suprised. After he lost Lily then there was no reason to stay with the 'good' side. The same 'good' side I may add that treated him and others like s**t.

It was Remus' fault. He is an adult and he knew that he had to take his potion. Snape made it and delivered it to him. So remus has no excuse for not taking it. you cant just say remus wasnt at fault, he was and he deserved to get sacked. he endangered the students, and the trio with his carelessness and he has only himself to blame.

Peters fault still, the little coward.

Neville is inept, its in the books, we are told this a million times. And potions is dangerous. Don't tell me that making hot, boiling pots of ingredients to make a potion, couldnt possibly blow up when we know they can. And you would have to be high to think that them exploding wouldnt cause shrapnel, burns, or even skin to melt off or some other effect. I do agree that snape was too harsh with him but snape is a genius and nothing is more frustrating then teaching people who suck at something that you think is easy. And yes, I think snape is a s**t teacher.

I still stand by #10. I still think he's emotionally at the level at a 17 year old.

That's what JK said. JK said that james was spoilt and wanted lily, snape had lily and that wasnt right. James eventually got what he wanted and all was good.

And, and I can find this, snape did join for accpetance. It's not right but it's sad and true. sad

And yes, 7th book, all books, snape, although a bully, still redeemed himself. At least to me.

I do know snape has flaws. Snape is a 17 year old (emotionally) man, who is a bully, who is a genius, in a job he clearly hates, is a s**t teacher, is cold, calculating, precise, sarcastic, bitter, is mentally screwed up, and hes a huge mess but that's why I love him.

The abuse at home and at school just broke him and he allowed it to turn him into what he is now. I think having true friends would have really helped. Oh well.

And it wasn't 'some' good. I would think that after wasting 16+ years for people who show you nothing but hate, ignore you or never say thanks is pretty good to me. Plus dumbledore did exactly what snape did. Dumbledore thought it would be cool to enslave every muggle for the greater good with Grindwald. It was only after his sister, whom he treated like baggage, died that he turned good. Snape and dumbles are one in the same in that regard.

James on the other hand, well I read all the new info about him and the only thing I can find that was good about him was that he sacrificed himself for his family. He was still hexing snape behind lilys back, and he still, after school, didn't change much. Im sorry but I need him to do more good to like him. I just need more info that makes him seem....better I guess?

[[Ren The Ryoko]]

xfire-spiritx

Well Im a slytherin (according to pottermore. And Hufflepuff is ******** awesome. Its one of my fave houses.

Snapes filter (the pensive) is not biased. We know for a fact that the pensieve shows a memory exactly as it happens. In third person. So what snape saw actually happened as we see it.

They do account for the fact and they arnt assumptions. Let me explain.

Harry, in the books, does copy off hermonie. We are told this happens. He does cheat, he does steal he does cast an unforgivable he is lazy sometimes he does not try in some classes and he does get away with way too many things. All of this is in the books or at least the British version which I have.

Teachers HAVE been mean to the students. Mcgonnigal DID leave neville out side in the third book after he lost the password. Again. Filius has said mean things and sprout has been somewhat mean too. Snape is not the only one who is mean.

Snape made six spells. One that is a counter curse, a curse, a hex, a spell that makes a faint buzzing in your ear, another spell and a charm? or is it a spell or hex? and some other thing. And again, making and interested does not equal doing. Plus they wernt all bad spells, hel even the marauders stole one of his spells.

James and his pals did use dark magic. Hexes and curses are dark, in my opinion, because they hurt people. And yes, he did say, in the books "because he exists if you know what I mean" in regards to snape. I need to know more about james.

I'm sorry but I need more then just lily's word. And it is stated, in the books, that she was trying not to smile as he was being stripped. I will however acknowledge that although snape didn't, in my opinion, say mudblood all the time, he certinally didn't stop his 'friends' from saying it. Which was wrong of him. I can tell you the page but I need to know what copy you have. The British version or the US version? they are both different regarding length.

fine, but hes curious. Might as well get them expelled. But don't worry, he paid for it.

The accidental magic is true. You see when kids are young and they get angry or sad or happy their magic does things. With Minerva she was able to make things move and come to her when she was a baby. With lily she could slow down her falling and with Severus he made a branch fall and possibly do other things. But he was angry and I still believe that it was an accident.

I'm not saying joining them was right I'm just saying I'm not suprised. After he lost Lily then there was no reason to stay with the 'good' side. The same 'good' side I may add that treated him and others like s**t.

It was Remus' fault. He is an adult and he knew that he had to take his potion. Snape made it and delivered it to him. So remus has no excuse for not taking it. you cant just say remus wasnt at fault, he was and he deserved to get sacked. he endangered the students, and the trio with his carelessness and he has only himself to blame.

Peters fault still, the little coward.

Neville is inept, its in the books, we are told this a million times. And potions is dangerous. Don't tell me that making hot, boiling pots of ingredients to make a potion, couldnt possibly blow up when we know they can. And you would have to be high to think that them exploding wouldnt cause shrapnel, burns, or even skin to melt off or some other effect. I do agree that snape was too harsh with him but snape is a genius and nothing is more frustrating then teaching people who suck at something that you think is easy. And yes, I think snape is a s**t teacher.

I still stand by #10. I still think he's emotionally at the level at a 17 year old.

That's what JK said. JK said that james was spoilt and wanted lily, snape had lily and that wasnt right. James eventually got what he wanted and all was good.

And, and I can find this, snape did join for accpetance. It's not right but it's sad and true. sad

And yes, 7th book, all books, snape, although a bully, still redeemed himself. At least to me.

I do know snape has flaws. Snape is a 17 year old (emotionally) man, who is a bully, who is a genius, in a job he clearly hates, is a s**t teacher, is cold, calculating, precise, sarcastic, bitter, is mentally screwed up, and hes a huge mess but that's why I love him.

The abuse at home and at school just broke him and he allowed it to turn him into what he is now. I think having true friends would have really helped. Oh well.

And it wasn't 'some' good. I would think that after wasting 16+ years for people who show you nothing but hate, ignore you or never say thanks is pretty good to me. Plus dumbledore did exactly what snape did. Dumbledore thought it would be cool to enslave every muggle for the greater good with Grindwald. It was only after his sister, whom he treated like baggage, died that he turned good. Snape and dumbles are one in the same in that regard.

James on the other hand, well I read all the new info about him and the only thing I can find that was good about him was that he sacrificed himself for his family. He was still hexing snape behind lilys back, and he still, after school, didn't change much. Im sorry but I need him to do more good to like him. I just need more info that makes him seem....better I guess?

Glad to see you're STILL missing the point. But fine, let's get into this.

1) The memories we see from Snape DID happen just as we see them, sure. BUT WHICH memories we saw WAS filtered by Snape. Right? So, we're seeing only moments and scenes that were particularly important to Snape. James making fun of him, Lily talking about James and him getting jealous, etc. So, we AREN'T seeing James interacting with Remus alone, or how James treated his teammates on the Quidditch team. We aren't seeing James taking Sirius in after he runs away, or when James proposed to Lily.
We are only seeing scenes that directly influenced SNAPE'S opinion of James, which is a form of bias.

2) Yes, other people in the series also did mean/bad/undesirable/questionable things. I'm not casting doubt on that. I'm not saying that Snape is the WORST person in the series, or anything close to it.

3) I don't think we actually have any evidence of James using "dark" magic at all. In fact, Lily directly says that he DOESN'T in Prince's Tale.

4) I'm familiar with the Snape's Worst Memory, but I'm not sure what POINT you're trying to make. Snape did call Lily (and other muggleborns) mudbloods. That's not up for dispute. That's just...what happened, and I think that....ya know...racial slurs aren't good. I think that Lily's reaction is...justified, really.

5) "Fine but he's curious"? I'm assuming this is in reference to Snape snooping around with Remus in school. CLEARLY, given how Snape interacts with the Marauders, he was intending to get Remus in trouble. This isn't really even like THAT bad of a thing, but it is just another nail in the "Snape is a poor belittled little victim" coffin. Snape HAD agency when he was in school. He was a contender in that fight. He wasn't just laying in a corner, crying while James rubbed egg in his hair or something. He had agency in those actions.

6) It IS possible that hurting Petunia was an accident, but I don't think we can say that for sure. It's an assumption that we are making.

7) Reasons to stay on the good side, despite the girl who have a crush on not being your friend after you insulted her: NOT KILLING PEOPLE.
Ok, I get "why" Snape would be tempted to fall in with that crowd. But being "understandable" doesn't EXCUSE that. Now, I think we can appreciate characters who are "bad". Like I said, I ADORE Regulus Black. But...we can accept that characters we love have "bad" aspects to them.

cool Remus was a little busy trying to...ya know...stop a murder from happening. I still think that Snape's choice to purposefully get Remus fired (and homeless again) was motivated out of his grudge. There's evidence to support that, really. If Snape really was just concerned about safety, then he wouldn't have been hinting at this ALL YEAR LONG, before Remus did anything that could have been considered dangerous.

9) I think that Peter had just as many reasons for falling in with the Death Eaters as Snape. I don't think he's totally redeemable for any of them, but I also don't think that his involvement completely frees Snape of his.

10) YES. Snape is a s**t teacher. He is a horrible, mean, callous bully of a teacher, and its the one aspect of his character that I really don't give him slack on.
Of course magic is dangerous. But you're not doing any students any favors by bullying them.


Ok, so now TO THE POINT:

SNAPE IS NOT AN ANGEL. You seem to understand this. He did many, many good things. But he also did a lot of really terrible things. And he was a bitter, angry, mean person. I think we can understand him, and appreciate him without just ignoring his flaws.
I think that trying to write off every wrong he ever committed whitewashes his character and DEVALUES the noble things that he accomplished. I think it strips him of his complexity that makes him so compelling in the first place.

Are there other characters who ALSO were flawed and ******** up and aren't totally redeemed? Yes.


On the note of James, we DO know a lot about him. Not as much as Snape of course, and from less direct sources. But it is there. Like I ORIGINALLY posted, James was a privileged boy, spoiled even, who was good looking, popular, athletic, indeed almost cliche in his archetypal "Popular Jock" mold.
And who does he befriend?
-The kid from the Slytherin family and a ******** up home life
-A Werewolf
-A jittery, shy, awkward pudgy kid.
What does that say about James? He didn't hang out with the other Quidditch kids. He hung out with misfits, and gave them a place to belong.
He took Sirius in after he ran away. He financially supported Remus after school. He trusted Peter with his life. He took on being an animagus for Remus. He fought for what was right.

And yes, James did some very unkind things in school, theres no doubting that. And I don't want to write that away, because I think that ignoring the bad diminished his complexity. He shouldn't have treated Snape that way, and I think he came to understand that.
He even saved Snape's life, for which SNAPE never forgave HIM. (Because under it all, I think that event forced Snape to see James as a PERSON instead of just a bully.)

The beginning and end of it is that neither James nor Snape is a saint. Neither of them is the scum of the earth.
Both of them are complex, flawed characters who both grew and developed through their lives. We know more about Snape, but I think that James over all comes off as more likable for ME. Both characters have a lot of merit and complexity, and I think that trying to cast them in "HERO" and "SCUM BAG" roles is unfair, and frankly impossible to do without diminishing their roles in the books.

[kraglin-obfonteri]

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

Well Im a slytherin (according to pottermore. And Hufflepuff is ******** awesome. Its one of my fave houses.

Snapes filter (the pensive) is not biased. We know for a fact that the pensieve shows a memory exactly as it happens. In third person. So what snape saw actually happened as we see it.

They do account for the fact and they arnt assumptions. Let me explain.

Harry, in the books, does copy off hermonie. We are told this happens. He does cheat, he does steal he does cast an unforgivable he is lazy sometimes he does not try in some classes and he does get away with way too many things. All of this is in the books or at least the British version which I have.

Teachers HAVE been mean to the students. Mcgonnigal DID leave neville out side in the third book after he lost the password. Again. Filius has said mean things and sprout has been somewhat mean too. Snape is not the only one who is mean.

Snape made six spells. One that is a counter curse, a curse, a hex, a spell that makes a faint buzzing in your ear, another spell and a charm? or is it a spell or hex? and some other thing. And again, making and interested does not equal doing. Plus they wernt all bad spells, hel even the marauders stole one of his spells.

James and his pals did use dark magic. Hexes and curses are dark, in my opinion, because they hurt people. And yes, he did say, in the books "because he exists if you know what I mean" in regards to snape. I need to know more about james.

I'm sorry but I need more then just lily's word. And it is stated, in the books, that she was trying not to smile as he was being stripped. I will however acknowledge that although snape didn't, in my opinion, say mudblood all the time, he certinally didn't stop his 'friends' from saying it. Which was wrong of him. I can tell you the page but I need to know what copy you have. The British version or the US version? they are both different regarding length.

fine, but hes curious. Might as well get them expelled. But don't worry, he paid for it.

The accidental magic is true. You see when kids are young and they get angry or sad or happy their magic does things. With Minerva she was able to make things move and come to her when she was a baby. With lily she could slow down her falling and with Severus he made a branch fall and possibly do other things. But he was angry and I still believe that it was an accident.

I'm not saying joining them was right I'm just saying I'm not suprised. After he lost Lily then there was no reason to stay with the 'good' side. The same 'good' side I may add that treated him and others like s**t.

It was Remus' fault. He is an adult and he knew that he had to take his potion. Snape made it and delivered it to him. So remus has no excuse for not taking it. you cant just say remus wasnt at fault, he was and he deserved to get sacked. he endangered the students, and the trio with his carelessness and he has only himself to blame.

Peters fault still, the little coward.

Neville is inept, its in the books, we are told this a million times. And potions is dangerous. Don't tell me that making hot, boiling pots of ingredients to make a potion, couldnt possibly blow up when we know they can. And you would have to be high to think that them exploding wouldnt cause shrapnel, burns, or even skin to melt off or some other effect. I do agree that snape was too harsh with him but snape is a genius and nothing is more frustrating then teaching people who suck at something that you think is easy. And yes, I think snape is a s**t teacher.

I still stand by #10. I still think he's emotionally at the level at a 17 year old.

That's what JK said. JK said that james was spoilt and wanted lily, snape had lily and that wasnt right. James eventually got what he wanted and all was good.

And, and I can find this, snape did join for accpetance. It's not right but it's sad and true. sad

And yes, 7th book, all books, snape, although a bully, still redeemed himself. At least to me.

I do know snape has flaws. Snape is a 17 year old (emotionally) man, who is a bully, who is a genius, in a job he clearly hates, is a s**t teacher, is cold, calculating, precise, sarcastic, bitter, is mentally screwed up, and hes a huge mess but that's why I love him.

The abuse at home and at school just broke him and he allowed it to turn him into what he is now. I think having true friends would have really helped. Oh well.

And it wasn't 'some' good. I would think that after wasting 16+ years for people who show you nothing but hate, ignore you or never say thanks is pretty good to me. Plus dumbledore did exactly what snape did. Dumbledore thought it would be cool to enslave every muggle for the greater good with Grindwald. It was only after his sister, whom he treated like baggage, died that he turned good. Snape and dumbles are one in the same in that regard.

James on the other hand, well I read all the new info about him and the only thing I can find that was good about him was that he sacrificed himself for his family. He was still hexing snape behind lilys back, and he still, after school, didn't change much. Im sorry but I need him to do more good to like him. I just need more info that makes him seem....better I guess?

Glad to see you're STILL missing the point. But fine, let's get into this.

1) The memories we see from Snape DID happen just as we see them, sure. BUT WHICH memories we saw WAS filtered by Snape. Right? So, we're seeing only moments and scenes that were particularly important to Snape. James making fun of him, Lily talking about James and him getting jealous, etc. So, we AREN'T seeing James interacting with Remus alone, or how James treated his teammates on the Quidditch team. We aren't seeing James taking Sirius in after he runs away, or when James proposed to Lily.
We are only seeing scenes that directly influenced SNAPE'S opinion of James, which is a form of bias.

2) Yes, other people in the series also did mean/bad/undesirable/questionable things. I'm not casting doubt on that. I'm not saying that Snape is the WORST person in the series, or anything close to it.

3) I don't think we actually have any evidence of James using "dark" magic at all. In fact, Lily directly says that he DOESN'T in Prince's Tale.

4) I'm familiar with the Snape's Worst Memory, but I'm not sure what POINT you're trying to make. Snape did call Lily (and other muggleborns) mudbloods. That's not up for dispute. That's just...what happened, and I think that....ya know...racial slurs aren't good. I think that Lily's reaction is...justified, really.

5) "Fine but he's curious"? I'm assuming this is in reference to Snape snooping around with Remus in school. CLEARLY, given how Snape interacts with the Marauders, he was intending to get Remus in trouble. This isn't really even like THAT bad of a thing, but it is just another nail in the "Snape is a poor belittled little victim" coffin. Snape HAD agency when he was in school. He was a contender in that fight. He wasn't just laying in a corner, crying while James rubbed egg in his hair or something. He had agency in those actions.

6) It IS possible that hurting Petunia was an accident, but I don't think we can say that for sure. It's an assumption that we are making.

7) Reasons to stay on the good side, despite the girl who have a crush on not being your friend after you insulted her: NOT KILLING PEOPLE.
Ok, I get "why" Snape would be tempted to fall in with that crowd. But being "understandable" doesn't EXCUSE that. Now, I think we can appreciate characters who are "bad". Like I said, I ADORE Regulus Black. But...we can accept that characters we love have "bad" aspects to them.

cool Remus was a little busy trying to...ya know...stop a murder from happening. I still think that Snape's choice to purposefully get Remus fired (and homeless again) was motivated out of his grudge. There's evidence to support that, really. If Snape really was just concerned about safety, then he wouldn't have been hinting at this ALL YEAR LONG, before Remus did anything that could have been considered dangerous.

9) I think that Peter had just as many reasons for falling in with the Death Eaters as Snape. I don't think he's totally redeemable for any of them, but I also don't think that his involvement completely frees Snape of his.

10) YES. Snape is a s**t teacher. He is a horrible, mean, callous bully of a teacher, and its the one aspect of his character that I really don't give him slack on.
Of course magic is dangerous. But you're not doing any students any favors by bullying them.


Ok, so now TO THE POINT:

SNAPE IS NOT AN ANGEL. You seem to understand this. He did many, many good things. But he also did a lot of really terrible things. And he was a bitter, angry, mean person. I think we can understand him, and appreciate him without just ignoring his flaws.
I think that trying to write off every wrong he ever committed whitewashes his character and DEVALUES the noble things that he accomplished. I think it strips him of his complexity that makes him so compelling in the first place.

Are there other characters who ALSO were flawed and ******** up and aren't totally redeemed? Yes.


On the note of James, we DO know a lot about him. Not as much as Snape of course, and from less direct sources. But it is there. Like I ORIGINALLY posted, James was a privileged boy, spoiled even, who was good looking, popular, athletic, indeed almost cliche in his archetypal "Popular Jock" mold.
And who does he befriend?
-The kid from the Slytherin family and a ******** up home life
-A Werewolf
-A jittery, shy, awkward pudgy kid.
What does that say about James? He didn't hang out with the other Quidditch kids. He hung out with misfits, and gave them a place to belong.
He took Sirius in after he ran away. He financially supported Remus after school. He trusted Peter with his life. He took on being an animagus for Remus. He fought for what was right.

And yes, James did some very unkind things in school, theres no doubting that. And I don't want to write that away, because I think that ignoring the bad diminished his complexity. He shouldn't have treated Snape that way, and I think he came to understand that.
He even saved Snape's life, for which SNAPE never forgave HIM. (Because under it all, I think that event forced Snape to see James as a PERSON instead of just a bully.)

The beginning and end of it is that neither James nor Snape is a saint. Neither of them is the scum of the earth.
Both of them are complex, flawed characters who both grew and developed through their lives. We know more about Snape, but I think that James over all comes off as more likable for ME. Both characters have a lot of merit and complexity, and I think that trying to cast them in "HERO" and "SCUM BAG" roles is unfair, and frankly impossible to do without diminishing their roles in the books.

1. I was only referring to the memories regarding his bullying. That's all.

2. I know your not.

3. That's only Lily's opinion or word which I could clame is biased in a way.

4. fine.

5. Well from what I saw snape never did anything to the marauders to warrent the bullying. They just wwnt of on him for no reason what so ever. As for his little 'friends' do you really think that they even cared that much about him. He was smart, he probably helped him with their homework, and he was most likely not going to f with them. They wernt really his friends, they just needed to use him. He was useful.

6. sure. Only JK can really tell us.

7.We don't know how many he did or did not kill. I need JK to tell us. And oh, yes, the one friend who treated you like a human told you to f off. Yes, she does not care about him anymore, thus every reason he had for the good side went away. If people in the school dont care about him and laugh as he gets hurt then why should he care about them? I am NOT saying it is right at all, I am just saying it's his logic.

8.but if snape's actions get no excuse then neither do Remus'. Remus knew the risks, it would have taken him like what a min? to drink the thing. He knew sirius was innocent and he knew the risks he was taking when he went out on the full moon. He still deserved to be sacked.

One does not almost get killed by a werewolf and come out mentally sound. As far as I'm concerned, he thought remus was dangerous, which he was, and proved to be, and needed to go.

9. didn't say it did.

10. Again, you do not make a genius teach a class full of students who are not only inept but don't give a crap (except for hermonie) I used to teach and it drove me up the wall when the kids would pourposly ignore and not care about the class. It's maddning. Why is he teaching anyways? is Albus making him? I wouldn't be suprised.


To point this one thing out though. And I'm not excusing him of the s**t he did, but: when one is surrounded by pain and is treated like s**t by everyone around him. Then he learns. He grew up not being taught how to treat people, through out school he learned that yeah, people are dicks and can't be trusted. And when lily left he learned that trusting people is wrong and should not be done.

I actually made an observation that Snape becomes attached (to a degree) to anyone who shows him kindness: Albus, lily, molly, auther. You know what I mean? its very sad but it's what I see. Joining that gang could have also been in part because they treated him with kindness and used him (I think).

you see with almost every character (almost) they did have s**t home lives but they also had something snape didn't and that was true love and friendship. I really think that if snape had more then just lily and if he was treated just a little better then he might not have joined the death eaters. but this is just my opinion and you can disagree.

My question is, that: would James have befrended those same people had they not been in gryfindor or have been slytherin?

I personally hate the words 'hero' and 'villain' because I don't see people that way. People are complex and shades of grey. I just wish more fans would see that.

[[Ren The Ryoko]]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

Well Im a slytherin (according to pottermore. And Hufflepuff is ******** awesome. Its one of my fave houses.

Snapes filter (the pensive) is not biased. We know for a fact that the pensieve shows a memory exactly as it happens. In third person. So what snape saw actually happened as we see it.

They do account for the fact and they arnt assumptions. Let me explain.

Harry, in the books, does copy off hermonie. We are told this happens. He does cheat, he does steal he does cast an unforgivable he is lazy sometimes he does not try in some classes and he does get away with way too many things. All of this is in the books or at least the British version which I have.

Teachers HAVE been mean to the students. Mcgonnigal DID leave neville out side in the third book after he lost the password. Again. Filius has said mean things and sprout has been somewhat mean too. Snape is not the only one who is mean.

Snape made six spells. One that is a counter curse, a curse, a hex, a spell that makes a faint buzzing in your ear, another spell and a charm? or is it a spell or hex? and some other thing. And again, making and interested does not equal doing. Plus they wernt all bad spells, hel even the marauders stole one of his spells.

James and his pals did use dark magic. Hexes and curses are dark, in my opinion, because they hurt people. And yes, he did say, in the books "because he exists if you know what I mean" in regards to snape. I need to know more about james.

I'm sorry but I need more then just lily's word. And it is stated, in the books, that she was trying not to smile as he was being stripped. I will however acknowledge that although snape didn't, in my opinion, say mudblood all the time, he certinally didn't stop his 'friends' from saying it. Which was wrong of him. I can tell you the page but I need to know what copy you have. The British version or the US version? they are both different regarding length.

fine, but hes curious. Might as well get them expelled. But don't worry, he paid for it.

The accidental magic is true. You see when kids are young and they get angry or sad or happy their magic does things. With Minerva she was able to make things move and come to her when she was a baby. With lily she could slow down her falling and with Severus he made a branch fall and possibly do other things. But he was angry and I still believe that it was an accident.

I'm not saying joining them was right I'm just saying I'm not suprised. After he lost Lily then there was no reason to stay with the 'good' side. The same 'good' side I may add that treated him and others like s**t.

It was Remus' fault. He is an adult and he knew that he had to take his potion. Snape made it and delivered it to him. So remus has no excuse for not taking it. you cant just say remus wasnt at fault, he was and he deserved to get sacked. he endangered the students, and the trio with his carelessness and he has only himself to blame.

Peters fault still, the little coward.

Neville is inept, its in the books, we are told this a million times. And potions is dangerous. Don't tell me that making hot, boiling pots of ingredients to make a potion, couldnt possibly blow up when we know they can. And you would have to be high to think that them exploding wouldnt cause shrapnel, burns, or even skin to melt off or some other effect. I do agree that snape was too harsh with him but snape is a genius and nothing is more frustrating then teaching people who suck at something that you think is easy. And yes, I think snape is a s**t teacher.

I still stand by #10. I still think he's emotionally at the level at a 17 year old.

That's what JK said. JK said that james was spoilt and wanted lily, snape had lily and that wasnt right. James eventually got what he wanted and all was good.

And, and I can find this, snape did join for accpetance. It's not right but it's sad and true. sad

And yes, 7th book, all books, snape, although a bully, still redeemed himself. At least to me.

I do know snape has flaws. Snape is a 17 year old (emotionally) man, who is a bully, who is a genius, in a job he clearly hates, is a s**t teacher, is cold, calculating, precise, sarcastic, bitter, is mentally screwed up, and hes a huge mess but that's why I love him.

The abuse at home and at school just broke him and he allowed it to turn him into what he is now. I think having true friends would have really helped. Oh well.

And it wasn't 'some' good. I would think that after wasting 16+ years for people who show you nothing but hate, ignore you or never say thanks is pretty good to me. Plus dumbledore did exactly what snape did. Dumbledore thought it would be cool to enslave every muggle for the greater good with Grindwald. It was only after his sister, whom he treated like baggage, died that he turned good. Snape and dumbles are one in the same in that regard.

James on the other hand, well I read all the new info about him and the only thing I can find that was good about him was that he sacrificed himself for his family. He was still hexing snape behind lilys back, and he still, after school, didn't change much. Im sorry but I need him to do more good to like him. I just need more info that makes him seem....better I guess?

Glad to see you're STILL missing the point. But fine, let's get into this.

1) The memories we see from Snape DID happen just as we see them, sure. BUT WHICH memories we saw WAS filtered by Snape. Right? So, we're seeing only moments and scenes that were particularly important to Snape. James making fun of him, Lily talking about James and him getting jealous, etc. So, we AREN'T seeing James interacting with Remus alone, or how James treated his teammates on the Quidditch team. We aren't seeing James taking Sirius in after he runs away, or when James proposed to Lily.
We are only seeing scenes that directly influenced SNAPE'S opinion of James, which is a form of bias.

2) Yes, other people in the series also did mean/bad/undesirable/questionable things. I'm not casting doubt on that. I'm not saying that Snape is the WORST person in the series, or anything close to it.

3) I don't think we actually have any evidence of James using "dark" magic at all. In fact, Lily directly says that he DOESN'T in Prince's Tale.

4) I'm familiar with the Snape's Worst Memory, but I'm not sure what POINT you're trying to make. Snape did call Lily (and other muggleborns) mudbloods. That's not up for dispute. That's just...what happened, and I think that....ya know...racial slurs aren't good. I think that Lily's reaction is...justified, really.

5) "Fine but he's curious"? I'm assuming this is in reference to Snape snooping around with Remus in school. CLEARLY, given how Snape interacts with the Marauders, he was intending to get Remus in trouble. This isn't really even like THAT bad of a thing, but it is just another nail in the "Snape is a poor belittled little victim" coffin. Snape HAD agency when he was in school. He was a contender in that fight. He wasn't just laying in a corner, crying while James rubbed egg in his hair or something. He had agency in those actions.

6) It IS possible that hurting Petunia was an accident, but I don't think we can say that for sure. It's an assumption that we are making.

7) Reasons to stay on the good side, despite the girl who have a crush on not being your friend after you insulted her: NOT KILLING PEOPLE.
Ok, I get "why" Snape would be tempted to fall in with that crowd. But being "understandable" doesn't EXCUSE that. Now, I think we can appreciate characters who are "bad". Like I said, I ADORE Regulus Black. But...we can accept that characters we love have "bad" aspects to them.

cool Remus was a little busy trying to...ya know...stop a murder from happening. I still think that Snape's choice to purposefully get Remus fired (and homeless again) was motivated out of his grudge. There's evidence to support that, really. If Snape really was just concerned about safety, then he wouldn't have been hinting at this ALL YEAR LONG, before Remus did anything that could have been considered dangerous.

9) I think that Peter had just as many reasons for falling in with the Death Eaters as Snape. I don't think he's totally redeemable for any of them, but I also don't think that his involvement completely frees Snape of his.

10) YES. Snape is a s**t teacher. He is a horrible, mean, callous bully of a teacher, and its the one aspect of his character that I really don't give him slack on.
Of course magic is dangerous. But you're not doing any students any favors by bullying them.


Ok, so now TO THE POINT:

SNAPE IS NOT AN ANGEL. You seem to understand this. He did many, many good things. But he also did a lot of really terrible things. And he was a bitter, angry, mean person. I think we can understand him, and appreciate him without just ignoring his flaws.
I think that trying to write off every wrong he ever committed whitewashes his character and DEVALUES the noble things that he accomplished. I think it strips him of his complexity that makes him so compelling in the first place.

Are there other characters who ALSO were flawed and ******** up and aren't totally redeemed? Yes.


On the note of James, we DO know a lot about him. Not as much as Snape of course, and from less direct sources. But it is there. Like I ORIGINALLY posted, James was a privileged boy, spoiled even, who was good looking, popular, athletic, indeed almost cliche in his archetypal "Popular Jock" mold.
And who does he befriend?
-The kid from the Slytherin family and a ******** up home life
-A Werewolf
-A jittery, shy, awkward pudgy kid.
What does that say about James? He didn't hang out with the other Quidditch kids. He hung out with misfits, and gave them a place to belong.
He took Sirius in after he ran away. He financially supported Remus after school. He trusted Peter with his life. He took on being an animagus for Remus. He fought for what was right.

And yes, James did some very unkind things in school, theres no doubting that. And I don't want to write that away, because I think that ignoring the bad diminished his complexity. He shouldn't have treated Snape that way, and I think he came to understand that.
He even saved Snape's life, for which SNAPE never forgave HIM. (Because under it all, I think that event forced Snape to see James as a PERSON instead of just a bully.)

The beginning and end of it is that neither James nor Snape is a saint. Neither of them is the scum of the earth.
Both of them are complex, flawed characters who both grew and developed through their lives. We know more about Snape, but I think that James over all comes off as more likable for ME. Both characters have a lot of merit and complexity, and I think that trying to cast them in "HERO" and "SCUM BAG" roles is unfair, and frankly impossible to do without diminishing their roles in the books.

1. I was only referring to the memories regarding his bullying. That's all.

2. I know your not.

3. That's only Lily's opinion or word which I could clame is biased in a way.

4. fine.

5. Well from what I saw snape never did anything to the marauders to warrent the bullying. They just wwnt of on him for no reason what so ever. As for his little 'friends' do you really think that they even cared that much about him. He was smart, he probably helped him with their homework, and he was most likely not going to f with them. They wernt really his friends, they just needed to use him. He was useful.

6. sure. Only JK can really tell us.

7.We don't know how many he did or did not kill. I need JK to tell us. And oh, yes, the one friend who treated you like a human told you to f off. Yes, she does not care about him anymore, thus every reason he had for the good side went away. If people in the school dont care about him and laugh as he gets hurt then why should he care about them? I am NOT saying it is right at all, I am just saying it's his logic.

8.but if snape's actions get no excuse then neither do Remus'. Remus knew the risks, it would have taken him like what a min? to drink the thing. He knew sirius was innocent and he knew the risks he was taking when he went out on the full moon. He still deserved to be sacked.

One does not almost get killed by a werewolf and come out mentally sound. As far as I'm concerned, he thought remus was dangerous, which he was, and proved to be, and needed to go.

9. didn't say it did.

10. Again, you do not make a genius teach a class full of students who are not only inept but don't give a crap (except for hermonie) I used to teach and it drove me up the wall when the kids would pourposly ignore and not care about the class. It's maddning. Why is he teaching anyways? is Albus making him? I wouldn't be suprised.


To point this one thing out though. And I'm not excusing him of the s**t he did, but: when one is surrounded by pain and is treated like s**t by everyone around him. Then he learns. He grew up not being taught how to treat people, through out school he learned that yeah, people are dicks and can't be trusted. And when lily left he learned that trusting people is wrong and should not be done.

I actually made an observation that Snape becomes attached (to a degree) to anyone who shows him kindness: Albus, lily, molly, auther. You know what I mean? its very sad but it's what I see. Joining that gang could have also been in part because they treated him with kindness and used him (I think).

you see with almost every character (almost) they did have s**t home lives but they also had something snape didn't and that was true love and friendship. I really think that if snape had more then just lily and if he was treated just a little better then he might not have joined the death eaters. but this is just my opinion and you can disagree.

My question is, that: would James have befrended those same people had they not been in gryfindor or have been slytherin?

I personally hate the words 'hero' and 'villain' because I don't see people that way. People are complex and shades of grey. I just wish more fans would see that.

I'm gunna go ahead and ignore the point by point, because I don't think most of it is relevant and it just takes to long.


Personally I favor James over Snape as a character MOSTLY because we're given a sense that James sort of grew out of his more negative personality traits to a large extent, while Snape seemed to only spiral more into his bitterness.

And...well, I'm in school to be a teacher now. I've student taught. And I am rather...repelled by the way Snape treats those kids.There's clear favoritism and bullying and it always just really bothered me. Now, that's a PERSONAL preference of mine.

We know that Snape got on ok with some of his housemates. And...I have a hard time pitying Snape losing Lily because he actively drove her away. And I think Lily was totally justified in leaving an emotionally abusive friendship like that.

No doubt Snape is a tragic and complex character. His complexity, the good AND the bad, are what make him compelling at all.


As far as your question about James....eh. Can't say, really. We sort of get the idea that there weren't a lot of inter-house friendships going on at the time. It's possible that James simply wouldn't have gotten to KNOW them, had they been in other houses. Certainly his rather simplistic ideas about House loyalty are a failing of his, but a failing that many characters (including HAGRID of all people) share.

[kraglin-obfonteri]

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

Well Im a slytherin (according to pottermore. And Hufflepuff is ******** awesome. Its one of my fave houses.

Snapes filter (the pensive) is not biased. We know for a fact that the pensieve shows a memory exactly as it happens. In third person. So what snape saw actually happened as we see it.

They do account for the fact and they arnt assumptions. Let me explain.

Harry, in the books, does copy off hermonie. We are told this happens. He does cheat, he does steal he does cast an unforgivable he is lazy sometimes he does not try in some classes and he does get away with way too many things. All of this is in the books or at least the British version which I have.

Teachers HAVE been mean to the students. Mcgonnigal DID leave neville out side in the third book after he lost the password. Again. Filius has said mean things and sprout has been somewhat mean too. Snape is not the only one who is mean.

Snape made six spells. One that is a counter curse, a curse, a hex, a spell that makes a faint buzzing in your ear, another spell and a charm? or is it a spell or hex? and some other thing. And again, making and interested does not equal doing. Plus they wernt all bad spells, hel even the marauders stole one of his spells.

James and his pals did use dark magic. Hexes and curses are dark, in my opinion, because they hurt people. And yes, he did say, in the books "because he exists if you know what I mean" in regards to snape. I need to know more about james.

I'm sorry but I need more then just lily's word. And it is stated, in the books, that she was trying not to smile as he was being stripped. I will however acknowledge that although snape didn't, in my opinion, say mudblood all the time, he certinally didn't stop his 'friends' from saying it. Which was wrong of him. I can tell you the page but I need to know what copy you have. The British version or the US version? they are both different regarding length.

fine, but hes curious. Might as well get them expelled. But don't worry, he paid for it.

The accidental magic is true. You see when kids are young and they get angry or sad or happy their magic does things. With Minerva she was able to make things move and come to her when she was a baby. With lily she could slow down her falling and with Severus he made a branch fall and possibly do other things. But he was angry and I still believe that it was an accident.

I'm not saying joining them was right I'm just saying I'm not suprised. After he lost Lily then there was no reason to stay with the 'good' side. The same 'good' side I may add that treated him and others like s**t.

It was Remus' fault. He is an adult and he knew that he had to take his potion. Snape made it and delivered it to him. So remus has no excuse for not taking it. you cant just say remus wasnt at fault, he was and he deserved to get sacked. he endangered the students, and the trio with his carelessness and he has only himself to blame.

Peters fault still, the little coward.

Neville is inept, its in the books, we are told this a million times. And potions is dangerous. Don't tell me that making hot, boiling pots of ingredients to make a potion, couldnt possibly blow up when we know they can. And you would have to be high to think that them exploding wouldnt cause shrapnel, burns, or even skin to melt off or some other effect. I do agree that snape was too harsh with him but snape is a genius and nothing is more frustrating then teaching people who suck at something that you think is easy. And yes, I think snape is a s**t teacher.

I still stand by #10. I still think he's emotionally at the level at a 17 year old.

That's what JK said. JK said that james was spoilt and wanted lily, snape had lily and that wasnt right. James eventually got what he wanted and all was good.

And, and I can find this, snape did join for accpetance. It's not right but it's sad and true. sad

And yes, 7th book, all books, snape, although a bully, still redeemed himself. At least to me.

I do know snape has flaws. Snape is a 17 year old (emotionally) man, who is a bully, who is a genius, in a job he clearly hates, is a s**t teacher, is cold, calculating, precise, sarcastic, bitter, is mentally screwed up, and hes a huge mess but that's why I love him.

The abuse at home and at school just broke him and he allowed it to turn him into what he is now. I think having true friends would have really helped. Oh well.

And it wasn't 'some' good. I would think that after wasting 16+ years for people who show you nothing but hate, ignore you or never say thanks is pretty good to me. Plus dumbledore did exactly what snape did. Dumbledore thought it would be cool to enslave every muggle for the greater good with Grindwald. It was only after his sister, whom he treated like baggage, died that he turned good. Snape and dumbles are one in the same in that regard.

James on the other hand, well I read all the new info about him and the only thing I can find that was good about him was that he sacrificed himself for his family. He was still hexing snape behind lilys back, and he still, after school, didn't change much. Im sorry but I need him to do more good to like him. I just need more info that makes him seem....better I guess?

Glad to see you're STILL missing the point. But fine, let's get into this.

1) The memories we see from Snape DID happen just as we see them, sure. BUT WHICH memories we saw WAS filtered by Snape. Right? So, we're seeing only moments and scenes that were particularly important to Snape. James making fun of him, Lily talking about James and him getting jealous, etc. So, we AREN'T seeing James interacting with Remus alone, or how James treated his teammates on the Quidditch team. We aren't seeing James taking Sirius in after he runs away, or when James proposed to Lily.
We are only seeing scenes that directly influenced SNAPE'S opinion of James, which is a form of bias.

2) Yes, other people in the series also did mean/bad/undesirable/questionable things. I'm not casting doubt on that. I'm not saying that Snape is the WORST person in the series, or anything close to it.

3) I don't think we actually have any evidence of James using "dark" magic at all. In fact, Lily directly says that he DOESN'T in Prince's Tale.

4) I'm familiar with the Snape's Worst Memory, but I'm not sure what POINT you're trying to make. Snape did call Lily (and other muggleborns) mudbloods. That's not up for dispute. That's just...what happened, and I think that....ya know...racial slurs aren't good. I think that Lily's reaction is...justified, really.

5) "Fine but he's curious"? I'm assuming this is in reference to Snape snooping around with Remus in school. CLEARLY, given how Snape interacts with the Marauders, he was intending to get Remus in trouble. This isn't really even like THAT bad of a thing, but it is just another nail in the "Snape is a poor belittled little victim" coffin. Snape HAD agency when he was in school. He was a contender in that fight. He wasn't just laying in a corner, crying while James rubbed egg in his hair or something. He had agency in those actions.

6) It IS possible that hurting Petunia was an accident, but I don't think we can say that for sure. It's an assumption that we are making.

7) Reasons to stay on the good side, despite the girl who have a crush on not being your friend after you insulted her: NOT KILLING PEOPLE.
Ok, I get "why" Snape would be tempted to fall in with that crowd. But being "understandable" doesn't EXCUSE that. Now, I think we can appreciate characters who are "bad". Like I said, I ADORE Regulus Black. But...we can accept that characters we love have "bad" aspects to them.

cool Remus was a little busy trying to...ya know...stop a murder from happening. I still think that Snape's choice to purposefully get Remus fired (and homeless again) was motivated out of his grudge. There's evidence to support that, really. If Snape really was just concerned about safety, then he wouldn't have been hinting at this ALL YEAR LONG, before Remus did anything that could have been considered dangerous.

9) I think that Peter had just as many reasons for falling in with the Death Eaters as Snape. I don't think he's totally redeemable for any of them, but I also don't think that his involvement completely frees Snape of his.

10) YES. Snape is a s**t teacher. He is a horrible, mean, callous bully of a teacher, and its the one aspect of his character that I really don't give him slack on.
Of course magic is dangerous. But you're not doing any students any favors by bullying them.


Ok, so now TO THE POINT:

SNAPE IS NOT AN ANGEL. You seem to understand this. He did many, many good things. But he also did a lot of really terrible things. And he was a bitter, angry, mean person. I think we can understand him, and appreciate him without just ignoring his flaws.
I think that trying to write off every wrong he ever committed whitewashes his character and DEVALUES the noble things that he accomplished. I think it strips him of his complexity that makes him so compelling in the first place.

Are there other characters who ALSO were flawed and ******** up and aren't totally redeemed? Yes.


On the note of James, we DO know a lot about him. Not as much as Snape of course, and from less direct sources. But it is there. Like I ORIGINALLY posted, James was a privileged boy, spoiled even, who was good looking, popular, athletic, indeed almost cliche in his archetypal "Popular Jock" mold.
And who does he befriend?
-The kid from the Slytherin family and a ******** up home life
-A Werewolf
-A jittery, shy, awkward pudgy kid.
What does that say about James? He didn't hang out with the other Quidditch kids. He hung out with misfits, and gave them a place to belong.
He took Sirius in after he ran away. He financially supported Remus after school. He trusted Peter with his life. He took on being an animagus for Remus. He fought for what was right.

And yes, James did some very unkind things in school, theres no doubting that. And I don't want to write that away, because I think that ignoring the bad diminished his complexity. He shouldn't have treated Snape that way, and I think he came to understand that.
He even saved Snape's life, for which SNAPE never forgave HIM. (Because under it all, I think that event forced Snape to see James as a PERSON instead of just a bully.)

The beginning and end of it is that neither James nor Snape is a saint. Neither of them is the scum of the earth.
Both of them are complex, flawed characters who both grew and developed through their lives. We know more about Snape, but I think that James over all comes off as more likable for ME. Both characters have a lot of merit and complexity, and I think that trying to cast them in "HERO" and "SCUM BAG" roles is unfair, and frankly impossible to do without diminishing their roles in the books.

1. I was only referring to the memories regarding his bullying. That's all.

2. I know your not.

3. That's only Lily's opinion or word which I could clame is biased in a way.

4. fine.

5. Well from what I saw snape never did anything to the marauders to warrent the bullying. They just wwnt of on him for no reason what so ever. As for his little 'friends' do you really think that they even cared that much about him. He was smart, he probably helped him with their homework, and he was most likely not going to f with them. They wernt really his friends, they just needed to use him. He was useful.

6. sure. Only JK can really tell us.

7.We don't know how many he did or did not kill. I need JK to tell us. And oh, yes, the one friend who treated you like a human told you to f off. Yes, she does not care about him anymore, thus every reason he had for the good side went away. If people in the school dont care about him and laugh as he gets hurt then why should he care about them? I am NOT saying it is right at all, I am just saying it's his logic.

8.but if snape's actions get no excuse then neither do Remus'. Remus knew the risks, it would have taken him like what a min? to drink the thing. He knew sirius was innocent and he knew the risks he was taking when he went out on the full moon. He still deserved to be sacked.

One does not almost get killed by a werewolf and come out mentally sound. As far as I'm concerned, he thought remus was dangerous, which he was, and proved to be, and needed to go.

9. didn't say it did.

10. Again, you do not make a genius teach a class full of students who are not only inept but don't give a crap (except for hermonie) I used to teach and it drove me up the wall when the kids would pourposly ignore and not care about the class. It's maddning. Why is he teaching anyways? is Albus making him? I wouldn't be suprised.


To point this one thing out though. And I'm not excusing him of the s**t he did, but: when one is surrounded by pain and is treated like s**t by everyone around him. Then he learns. He grew up not being taught how to treat people, through out school he learned that yeah, people are dicks and can't be trusted. And when lily left he learned that trusting people is wrong and should not be done.

I actually made an observation that Snape becomes attached (to a degree) to anyone who shows him kindness: Albus, lily, molly, auther. You know what I mean? its very sad but it's what I see. Joining that gang could have also been in part because they treated him with kindness and used him (I think).

you see with almost every character (almost) they did have s**t home lives but they also had something snape didn't and that was true love and friendship. I really think that if snape had more then just lily and if he was treated just a little better then he might not have joined the death eaters. but this is just my opinion and you can disagree.

My question is, that: would James have befrended those same people had they not been in gryfindor or have been slytherin?

I personally hate the words 'hero' and 'villain' because I don't see people that way. People are complex and shades of grey. I just wish more fans would see that.

I'm gunna go ahead and ignore the point by point, because I don't think most of it is relevant and it just takes to long.


Personally I favor James over Snape as a character MOSTLY because we're given a sense that James sort of grew out of his more negative personality traits to a large extent, while Snape seemed to only spiral more into his bitterness.

And...well, I'm in school to be a teacher now. I've student taught. And I am rather...repelled by the way Snape treats those kids.There's clear favoritism and bullying and it always just really bothered me. Now, that's a PERSONAL preference of mine.

We know that Snape got on ok with some of his housemates. And...I have a hard time pitying Snape losing Lily because he actively drove her away. And I think Lily was totally justified in leaving an emotionally abusive friendship like that.

No doubt Snape is a tragic and complex character. His complexity, the good AND the bad, are what make him compelling at all.


As far as your question about James....eh. Can't say, really. We sort of get the idea that there weren't a lot of inter-house friendships going on at the time. It's possible that James simply wouldn't have gotten to KNOW them, had they been in other houses. Certainly his rather simplistic ideas about House loyalty are a failing of his, but a failing that many characters (including HAGRID of all people) share.

Sounds good to me.

Well as I said, its what he was taught and learned. your personality and how you act is in part made by your surroundings and how people treat you.

But are you a genius in a job you are forced into and that you hate?

I never saw it as abusive. Snape just seemed perfectly content in doing what ever she wanted. I do not support snape/lily because the relationship would not have worked and would have been bad for severus. Severus would just do what she wants and she'd control him to a point.

And honestly, I think he always needs someone to control him. First lily in a sense, then voldemort, his housemates and lastly albus. sad

exactly. smile

Well Im curious because it seems he liked gryffindors more then any other. I dont think he would have befrended them especially had they been in slytherin. I know him befriending them was cool and especially everything else he did but the whole friendship thing means a little less to me because they were all gryffindors. I don't think that made much sense...sorry.

Oh, and regarding james saving him. I always saw the anger as: snape didn't want to be saved. What if snape was trying to get himself killed that night and just needed a way to do it? and he hates james for saving him because he was just tired.

it's just a thought.

but yeah, you like james more then snape and I like snape more then james it's all cool. I will admit that james isn't so bad.

Oh! and sherlock holmes kinda is like snape in my opinion. Sorry if that ruins sherlock for you. biggrin

[[Ren The Ryoko]]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

Well Im a slytherin (according to pottermore. And Hufflepuff is ******** awesome. Its one of my fave houses.

Snapes filter (the pensive) is not biased. We know for a fact that the pensieve shows a memory exactly as it happens. In third person. So what snape saw actually happened as we see it.

They do account for the fact and they arnt assumptions. Let me explain.

Harry, in the books, does copy off hermonie. We are told this happens. He does cheat, he does steal he does cast an unforgivable he is lazy sometimes he does not try in some classes and he does get away with way too many things. All of this is in the books or at least the British version which I have.

Teachers HAVE been mean to the students. Mcgonnigal DID leave neville out side in the third book after he lost the password. Again. Filius has said mean things and sprout has been somewhat mean too. Snape is not the only one who is mean.

Snape made six spells. One that is a counter curse, a curse, a hex, a spell that makes a faint buzzing in your ear, another spell and a charm? or is it a spell or hex? and some other thing. And again, making and interested does not equal doing. Plus they wernt all bad spells, hel even the marauders stole one of his spells.

James and his pals did use dark magic. Hexes and curses are dark, in my opinion, because they hurt people. And yes, he did say, in the books "because he exists if you know what I mean" in regards to snape. I need to know more about james.

I'm sorry but I need more then just lily's word. And it is stated, in the books, that she was trying not to smile as he was being stripped. I will however acknowledge that although snape didn't, in my opinion, say mudblood all the time, he certinally didn't stop his 'friends' from saying it. Which was wrong of him. I can tell you the page but I need to know what copy you have. The British version or the US version? they are both different regarding length.

fine, but hes curious. Might as well get them expelled. But don't worry, he paid for it.

The accidental magic is true. You see when kids are young and they get angry or sad or happy their magic does things. With Minerva she was able to make things move and come to her when she was a baby. With lily she could slow down her falling and with Severus he made a branch fall and possibly do other things. But he was angry and I still believe that it was an accident.

I'm not saying joining them was right I'm just saying I'm not suprised. After he lost Lily then there was no reason to stay with the 'good' side. The same 'good' side I may add that treated him and others like s**t.

It was Remus' fault. He is an adult and he knew that he had to take his potion. Snape made it and delivered it to him. So remus has no excuse for not taking it. you cant just say remus wasnt at fault, he was and he deserved to get sacked. he endangered the students, and the trio with his carelessness and he has only himself to blame.

Peters fault still, the little coward.

Neville is inept, its in the books, we are told this a million times. And potions is dangerous. Don't tell me that making hot, boiling pots of ingredients to make a potion, couldnt possibly blow up when we know they can. And you would have to be high to think that them exploding wouldnt cause shrapnel, burns, or even skin to melt off or some other effect. I do agree that snape was too harsh with him but snape is a genius and nothing is more frustrating then teaching people who suck at something that you think is easy. And yes, I think snape is a s**t teacher.

I still stand by #10. I still think he's emotionally at the level at a 17 year old.

That's what JK said. JK said that james was spoilt and wanted lily, snape had lily and that wasnt right. James eventually got what he wanted and all was good.

And, and I can find this, snape did join for accpetance. It's not right but it's sad and true. sad

And yes, 7th book, all books, snape, although a bully, still redeemed himself. At least to me.

I do know snape has flaws. Snape is a 17 year old (emotionally) man, who is a bully, who is a genius, in a job he clearly hates, is a s**t teacher, is cold, calculating, precise, sarcastic, bitter, is mentally screwed up, and hes a huge mess but that's why I love him.

The abuse at home and at school just broke him and he allowed it to turn him into what he is now. I think having true friends would have really helped. Oh well.

And it wasn't 'some' good. I would think that after wasting 16+ years for people who show you nothing but hate, ignore you or never say thanks is pretty good to me. Plus dumbledore did exactly what snape did. Dumbledore thought it would be cool to enslave every muggle for the greater good with Grindwald. It was only after his sister, whom he treated like baggage, died that he turned good. Snape and dumbles are one in the same in that regard.

James on the other hand, well I read all the new info about him and the only thing I can find that was good about him was that he sacrificed himself for his family. He was still hexing snape behind lilys back, and he still, after school, didn't change much. Im sorry but I need him to do more good to like him. I just need more info that makes him seem....better I guess?

Glad to see you're STILL missing the point. But fine, let's get into this.

1) The memories we see from Snape DID happen just as we see them, sure. BUT WHICH memories we saw WAS filtered by Snape. Right? So, we're seeing only moments and scenes that were particularly important to Snape. James making fun of him, Lily talking about James and him getting jealous, etc. So, we AREN'T seeing James interacting with Remus alone, or how James treated his teammates on the Quidditch team. We aren't seeing James taking Sirius in after he runs away, or when James proposed to Lily.
We are only seeing scenes that directly influenced SNAPE'S opinion of James, which is a form of bias.

2) Yes, other people in the series also did mean/bad/undesirable/questionable things. I'm not casting doubt on that. I'm not saying that Snape is the WORST person in the series, or anything close to it.

3) I don't think we actually have any evidence of James using "dark" magic at all. In fact, Lily directly says that he DOESN'T in Prince's Tale.

4) I'm familiar with the Snape's Worst Memory, but I'm not sure what POINT you're trying to make. Snape did call Lily (and other muggleborns) mudbloods. That's not up for dispute. That's just...what happened, and I think that....ya know...racial slurs aren't good. I think that Lily's reaction is...justified, really.

5) "Fine but he's curious"? I'm assuming this is in reference to Snape snooping around with Remus in school. CLEARLY, given how Snape interacts with the Marauders, he was intending to get Remus in trouble. This isn't really even like THAT bad of a thing, but it is just another nail in the "Snape is a poor belittled little victim" coffin. Snape HAD agency when he was in school. He was a contender in that fight. He wasn't just laying in a corner, crying while James rubbed egg in his hair or something. He had agency in those actions.

6) It IS possible that hurting Petunia was an accident, but I don't think we can say that for sure. It's an assumption that we are making.

7) Reasons to stay on the good side, despite the girl who have a crush on not being your friend after you insulted her: NOT KILLING PEOPLE.
Ok, I get "why" Snape would be tempted to fall in with that crowd. But being "understandable" doesn't EXCUSE that. Now, I think we can appreciate characters who are "bad". Like I said, I ADORE Regulus Black. But...we can accept that characters we love have "bad" aspects to them.

cool Remus was a little busy trying to...ya know...stop a murder from happening. I still think that Snape's choice to purposefully get Remus fired (and homeless again) was motivated out of his grudge. There's evidence to support that, really. If Snape really was just concerned about safety, then he wouldn't have been hinting at this ALL YEAR LONG, before Remus did anything that could have been considered dangerous.

9) I think that Peter had just as many reasons for falling in with the Death Eaters as Snape. I don't think he's totally redeemable for any of them, but I also don't think that his involvement completely frees Snape of his.

10) YES. Snape is a s**t teacher. He is a horrible, mean, callous bully of a teacher, and its the one aspect of his character that I really don't give him slack on.
Of course magic is dangerous. But you're not doing any students any favors by bullying them.


Ok, so now TO THE POINT:

SNAPE IS NOT AN ANGEL. You seem to understand this. He did many, many good things. But he also did a lot of really terrible things. And he was a bitter, angry, mean person. I think we can understand him, and appreciate him without just ignoring his flaws.
I think that trying to write off every wrong he ever committed whitewashes his character and DEVALUES the noble things that he accomplished. I think it strips him of his complexity that makes him so compelling in the first place.

Are there other characters who ALSO were flawed and ******** up and aren't totally redeemed? Yes.


On the note of James, we DO know a lot about him. Not as much as Snape of course, and from less direct sources. But it is there. Like I ORIGINALLY posted, James was a privileged boy, spoiled even, who was good looking, popular, athletic, indeed almost cliche in his archetypal "Popular Jock" mold.
And who does he befriend?
-The kid from the Slytherin family and a ******** up home life
-A Werewolf
-A jittery, shy, awkward pudgy kid.
What does that say about James? He didn't hang out with the other Quidditch kids. He hung out with misfits, and gave them a place to belong.
He took Sirius in after he ran away. He financially supported Remus after school. He trusted Peter with his life. He took on being an animagus for Remus. He fought for what was right.

And yes, James did some very unkind things in school, theres no doubting that. And I don't want to write that away, because I think that ignoring the bad diminished his complexity. He shouldn't have treated Snape that way, and I think he came to understand that.
He even saved Snape's life, for which SNAPE never forgave HIM. (Because under it all, I think that event forced Snape to see James as a PERSON instead of just a bully.)

The beginning and end of it is that neither James nor Snape is a saint. Neither of them is the scum of the earth.
Both of them are complex, flawed characters who both grew and developed through their lives. We know more about Snape, but I think that James over all comes off as more likable for ME. Both characters have a lot of merit and complexity, and I think that trying to cast them in "HERO" and "SCUM BAG" roles is unfair, and frankly impossible to do without diminishing their roles in the books.

1. I was only referring to the memories regarding his bullying. That's all.

2. I know your not.

3. That's only Lily's opinion or word which I could clame is biased in a way.

4. fine.

5. Well from what I saw snape never did anything to the marauders to warrent the bullying. They just wwnt of on him for no reason what so ever. As for his little 'friends' do you really think that they even cared that much about him. He was smart, he probably helped him with their homework, and he was most likely not going to f with them. They wernt really his friends, they just needed to use him. He was useful.

6. sure. Only JK can really tell us.

7.We don't know how many he did or did not kill. I need JK to tell us. And oh, yes, the one friend who treated you like a human told you to f off. Yes, she does not care about him anymore, thus every reason he had for the good side went away. If people in the school dont care about him and laugh as he gets hurt then why should he care about them? I am NOT saying it is right at all, I am just saying it's his logic.

8.but if snape's actions get no excuse then neither do Remus'. Remus knew the risks, it would have taken him like what a min? to drink the thing. He knew sirius was innocent and he knew the risks he was taking when he went out on the full moon. He still deserved to be sacked.

One does not almost get killed by a werewolf and come out mentally sound. As far as I'm concerned, he thought remus was dangerous, which he was, and proved to be, and needed to go.

9. didn't say it did.

10. Again, you do not make a genius teach a class full of students who are not only inept but don't give a crap (except for hermonie) I used to teach and it drove me up the wall when the kids would pourposly ignore and not care about the class. It's maddning. Why is he teaching anyways? is Albus making him? I wouldn't be suprised.


To point this one thing out though. And I'm not excusing him of the s**t he did, but: when one is surrounded by pain and is treated like s**t by everyone around him. Then he learns. He grew up not being taught how to treat people, through out school he learned that yeah, people are dicks and can't be trusted. And when lily left he learned that trusting people is wrong and should not be done.

I actually made an observation that Snape becomes attached (to a degree) to anyone who shows him kindness: Albus, lily, molly, auther. You know what I mean? its very sad but it's what I see. Joining that gang could have also been in part because they treated him with kindness and used him (I think).

you see with almost every character (almost) they did have s**t home lives but they also had something snape didn't and that was true love and friendship. I really think that if snape had more then just lily and if he was treated just a little better then he might not have joined the death eaters. but this is just my opinion and you can disagree.

My question is, that: would James have befrended those same people had they not been in gryfindor or have been slytherin?

I personally hate the words 'hero' and 'villain' because I don't see people that way. People are complex and shades of grey. I just wish more fans would see that.

I'm gunna go ahead and ignore the point by point, because I don't think most of it is relevant and it just takes to long.


Personally I favor James over Snape as a character MOSTLY because we're given a sense that James sort of grew out of his more negative personality traits to a large extent, while Snape seemed to only spiral more into his bitterness.

And...well, I'm in school to be a teacher now. I've student taught. And I am rather...repelled by the way Snape treats those kids.There's clear favoritism and bullying and it always just really bothered me. Now, that's a PERSONAL preference of mine.

We know that Snape got on ok with some of his housemates. And...I have a hard time pitying Snape losing Lily because he actively drove her away. And I think Lily was totally justified in leaving an emotionally abusive friendship like that.

No doubt Snape is a tragic and complex character. His complexity, the good AND the bad, are what make him compelling at all.


As far as your question about James....eh. Can't say, really. We sort of get the idea that there weren't a lot of inter-house friendships going on at the time. It's possible that James simply wouldn't have gotten to KNOW them, had they been in other houses. Certainly his rather simplistic ideas about House loyalty are a failing of his, but a failing that many characters (including HAGRID of all people) share.

Sounds good to me.

Well as I said, its what he was taught and learned. your personality and how you act is in part made by your surroundings and how people treat you.

But are you a genius in a job you are forced into and that you hate?

I never saw it as abusive. Snape just seemed perfectly content in doing what ever she wanted. I do not support snape/lily because the relationship would not have worked and would have been bad for severus. Severus would just do what she wants and she'd control him to a point.

And honestly, I think he always needs someone to control him. First lily in a sense, then voldemort, his housemates and lastly albus. sad

exactly. smile

Well Im curious because it seems he liked gryffindors more then any other. I dont think he would have befrended them especially had they been in slytherin. I know him befriending them was cool and especially everything else he did but the whole friendship thing means a little less to me because they were all gryffindors. I don't think that made much sense...sorry.

Oh, and regarding james saving him. I always saw the anger as: snape didn't want to be saved. What if snape was trying to get himself killed that night and just needed a way to do it? and he hates james for saving him because he was just tired.

it's just a thought.

but yeah, you like james more then snape and I like snape more then james it's all cool. I will admit that james isn't so bad.

Oh! and sherlock holmes kinda is like snape in my opinion. Sorry if that ruins sherlock for you. biggrin

Prince's Tale, we see that Lily is really bothered by Snape's involvement in dark arts, and his racists friends and he doesn't....seem to care really. Like, as soon as she calls James a toerag, he just grins and then doesn't really address her worries.
So...that comes off as rather...emotionally unhealthy in a friendship.
I almost think that he idolized Lily as an idea more than he respected her as a person in some ways. So I can't fault Lily for ending that.


So, it would be cool to see more interhouse friendships going on. But, I don't think it diminished the value of the intrahouse friendships we see. -shrugs-


I'm not sure that I buy Snape being suicidal when he was 16 or whatever.


It doesn't ruin Sherlock for me, I just disagree.

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Well Im a slytherin (according to pottermore. And Hufflepuff is ******** awesome. Its one of my fave houses.

Snapes filter (the pensive) is not biased. We know for a fact that the pensieve shows a memory exactly as it happens. In third person. So what snape saw actually happened as we see it.

They do account for the fact and they arnt assumptions. Let me explain.

Harry, in the books, does copy off hermonie. We are told this happens. He does cheat, he does steal he does cast an unforgivable he is lazy sometimes he does not try in some classes and he does get away with way too many things. All of this is in the books or at least the British version which I have.

Teachers HAVE been mean to the students. Mcgonnigal DID leave neville out side in the third book after he lost the password. Again. Filius has said mean things and sprout has been somewhat mean too. Snape is not the only one who is mean.

Snape made six spells. One that is a counter curse, a curse, a hex, a spell that makes a faint buzzing in your ear, another spell and a charm? or is it a spell or hex? and some other thing. And again, making and interested does not equal doing. Plus they wernt all bad spells, hel even the marauders stole one of his spells.

James and his pals did use dark magic. Hexes and curses are dark, in my opinion, because they hurt people. And yes, he did say, in the books "because he exists if you know what I mean" in regards to snape. I need to know more about james.

I'm sorry but I need more then just lily's word. And it is stated, in the books, that she was trying not to smile as he was being stripped. I will however acknowledge that although snape didn't, in my opinion, say mudblood all the time, he certinally didn't stop his 'friends' from saying it. Which was wrong of him. I can tell you the page but I need to know what copy you have. The British version or the US version? they are both different regarding length.

fine, but hes curious. Might as well get them expelled. But don't worry, he paid for it.

The accidental magic is true. You see when kids are young and they get angry or sad or happy their magic does things. With Minerva she was able to make things move and come to her when she was a baby. With lily she could slow down her falling and with Severus he made a branch fall and possibly do other things. But he was angry and I still believe that it was an accident.

I'm not saying joining them was right I'm just saying I'm not suprised. After he lost Lily then there was no reason to stay with the 'good' side. The same 'good' side I may add that treated him and others like s**t.

It was Remus' fault. He is an adult and he knew that he had to take his potion. Snape made it and delivered it to him. So remus has no excuse for not taking it. you cant just say remus wasnt at fault, he was and he deserved to get sacked. he endangered the students, and the trio with his carelessness and he has only himself to blame.

Peters fault still, the little coward.

Neville is inept, its in the books, we are told this a million times. And potions is dangerous. Don't tell me that making hot, boiling pots of ingredients to make a potion, couldnt possibly blow up when we know they can. And you would have to be high to think that them exploding wouldnt cause shrapnel, burns, or even skin to melt off or some other effect. I do agree that snape was too harsh with him but snape is a genius and nothing is more frustrating then teaching people who suck at something that you think is easy. And yes, I think snape is a s**t teacher.

I still stand by #10. I still think he's emotionally at the level at a 17 year old.

That's what JK said. JK said that james was spoilt and wanted lily, snape had lily and that wasnt right. James eventually got what he wanted and all was good.

And, and I can find this, snape did join for accpetance. It's not right but it's sad and true. sad

And yes, 7th book, all books, snape, although a bully, still redeemed himself. At least to me.

I do know snape has flaws. Snape is a 17 year old (emotionally) man, who is a bully, who is a genius, in a job he clearly hates, is a s**t teacher, is cold, calculating, precise, sarcastic, bitter, is mentally screwed up, and hes a huge mess but that's why I love him.

The abuse at home and at school just broke him and he allowed it to turn him into what he is now. I think having true friends would have really helped. Oh well.

And it wasn't 'some' good. I would think that after wasting 16+ years for people who show you nothing but hate, ignore you or never say thanks is pretty good to me. Plus dumbledore did exactly what snape did. Dumbledore thought it would be cool to enslave every muggle for the greater good with Grindwald. It was only after his sister, whom he treated like baggage, died that he turned good. Snape and dumbles are one in the same in that regard.

James on the other hand, well I read all the new info about him and the only thing I can find that was good about him was that he sacrificed himself for his family. He was still hexing snape behind lilys back, and he still, after school, didn't change much. Im sorry but I need him to do more good to like him. I just need more info that makes him seem....better I guess?

Glad to see you're STILL missing the point. But fine, let's get into this.

1) The memories we see from Snape DID happen just as we see them, sure. BUT WHICH memories we saw WAS filtered by Snape. Right? So, we're seeing only moments and scenes that were particularly important to Snape. James making fun of him, Lily talking about James and him getting jealous, etc. So, we AREN'T seeing James interacting with Remus alone, or how James treated his teammates on the Quidditch team. We aren't seeing James taking Sirius in after he runs away, or when James proposed to Lily.
We are only seeing scenes that directly influenced SNAPE'S opinion of James, which is a form of bias.

2) Yes, other people in the series also did mean/bad/undesirable/questionable things. I'm not casting doubt on that. I'm not saying that Snape is the WORST person in the series, or anything close to it.

3) I don't think we actually have any evidence of James using "dark" magic at all. In fact, Lily directly says that he DOESN'T in Prince's Tale.

4) I'm familiar with the Snape's Worst Memory, but I'm not sure what POINT you're trying to make. Snape did call Lily (and other muggleborns) mudbloods. That's not up for dispute. That's just...what happened, and I think that....ya know...racial slurs aren't good. I think that Lily's reaction is...justified, really.

5) "Fine but he's curious"? I'm assuming this is in reference to Snape snooping around with Remus in school. CLEARLY, given how Snape interacts with the Marauders, he was intending to get Remus in trouble. This isn't really even like THAT bad of a thing, but it is just another nail in the "Snape is a poor belittled little victim" coffin. Snape HAD agency when he was in school. He was a contender in that fight. He wasn't just laying in a corner, crying while James rubbed egg in his hair or something. He had agency in those actions.

6) It IS possible that hurting Petunia was an accident, but I don't think we can say that for sure. It's an assumption that we are making.

7) Reasons to stay on the good side, despite the girl who have a crush on not being your friend after you insulted her: NOT KILLING PEOPLE.
Ok, I get "why" Snape would be tempted to fall in with that crowd. But being "understandable" doesn't EXCUSE that. Now, I think we can appreciate characters who are "bad". Like I said, I ADORE Regulus Black. But...we can accept that characters we love have "bad" aspects to them.

cool Remus was a little busy trying to...ya know...stop a murder from happening. I still think that Snape's choice to purposefully get Remus fired (and homeless again) was motivated out of his grudge. There's evidence to support that, really. If Snape really was just concerned about safety, then he wouldn't have been hinting at this ALL YEAR LONG, before Remus did anything that could have been considered dangerous.

9) I think that Peter had just as many reasons for falling in with the Death Eaters as Snape. I don't think he's totally redeemable for any of them, but I also don't think that his involvement completely frees Snape of his.

10) YES. Snape is a s**t teacher. He is a horrible, mean, callous bully of a teacher, and its the one aspect of his character that I really don't give him slack on.
Of course magic is dangerous. But you're not doing any students any favors by bullying them.


Ok, so now TO THE POINT:

SNAPE IS NOT AN ANGEL. You seem to understand this. He did many, many good things. But he also did a lot of really terrible things. And he was a bitter, angry, mean person. I think we can understand him, and appreciate him without just ignoring his flaws.
I think that trying to write off every wrong he ever committed whitewashes his character and DEVALUES the noble things that he accomplished. I think it strips him of his complexity that makes him so compelling in the first place.

Are there other characters who ALSO were flawed and ******** up and aren't totally redeemed? Yes.


On the note of James, we DO know a lot about him. Not as much as Snape of course, and from less direct sources. But it is there. Like I ORIGINALLY posted, James was a privileged boy, spoiled even, who was good looking, popular, athletic, indeed almost cliche in his archetypal "Popular Jock" mold.
And who does he befriend?
-The kid from the Slytherin family and a ******** up home life
-A Werewolf
-A jittery, shy, awkward pudgy kid.
What does that say about James? He didn't hang out with the other Quidditch kids. He hung out with misfits, and gave them a place to belong.
He took Sirius in after he ran away. He financially supported Remus after school. He trusted Peter with his life. He took on being an animagus for Remus. He fought for what was right.

And yes, James did some very unkind things in school, theres no doubting that. And I don't want to write that away, because I think that ignoring the bad diminished his complexity. He shouldn't have treated Snape that way, and I think he came to understand that.
He even saved Snape's life, for which SNAPE never forgave HIM. (Because under it all, I think that event forced Snape to see James as a PERSON instead of just a bully.)

The beginning and end of it is that neither James nor Snape is a saint. Neither of them is the scum of the earth.
Both of them are complex, flawed characters who both grew and developed through their lives. We know more about Snape, but I think that James over all comes off as more likable for ME. Both characters have a lot of merit and complexity, and I think that trying to cast them in "HERO" and "SCUM BAG" roles is unfair, and frankly impossible to do without diminishing their roles in the books.

1. I was only referring to the memories regarding his bullying. That's all.

2. I know your not.

3. That's only Lily's opinion or word which I could clame is biased in a way.

4. fine.

5. Well from what I saw snape never did anything to the marauders to warrent the bullying. They just wwnt of on him for no reason what so ever. As for his little 'friends' do you really think that they even cared that much about him. He was smart, he probably helped him with their homework, and he was most likely not going to f with them. They wernt really his friends, they just needed to use him. He was useful.

6. sure. Only JK can really tell us.

7.We don't know how many he did or did not kill. I need JK to tell us. And oh, yes, the one friend who treated you like a human told you to f off. Yes, she does not care about him anymore, thus every reason he had for the good side went away. If people in the school dont care about him and laugh as he gets hurt then why should he care about them? I am NOT saying it is right at all, I am just saying it's his logic.

8.but if snape's actions get no excuse then neither do Remus'. Remus knew the risks, it would have taken him like what a min? to drink the thing. He knew sirius was innocent and he knew the risks he was taking when he went out on the full moon. He still deserved to be sacked.

One does not almost get killed by a werewolf and come out mentally sound. As far as I'm concerned, he thought remus was dangerous, which he was, and proved to be, and needed to go.

9. didn't say it did.

10. Again, you do not make a genius teach a class full of students who are not only inept but don't give a crap (except for hermonie) I used to teach and it drove me up the wall when the kids would pourposly ignore and not care about the class. It's maddning. Why is he teaching anyways? is Albus making him? I wouldn't be suprised.


To point this one thing out though. And I'm not excusing him of the s**t he did, but: when one is surrounded by pain and is treated like s**t by everyone around him. Then he learns. He grew up not being taught how to treat people, through out school he learned that yeah, people are dicks and can't be trusted. And when lily left he learned that trusting people is wrong and should not be done.

I actually made an observation that Snape becomes attached (to a degree) to anyone who shows him kindness: Albus, lily, molly, auther. You know what I mean? its very sad but it's what I see. Joining that gang could have also been in part because they treated him with kindness and used him (I think).

you see with almost every character (almost) they did have s**t home lives but they also had something snape didn't and that was true love and friendship. I really think that if snape had more then just lily and if he was treated just a little better then he might not have joined the death eaters. but this is just my opinion and you can disagree.

My question is, that: would James have befrended those same people had they not been in gryfindor or have been slytherin?

I personally hate the words 'hero' and 'villain' because I don't see people that way. People are complex and shades of grey. I just wish more fans would see that.

I'm gunna go ahead and ignore the point by point, because I don't think most of it is relevant and it just takes to long.


Personally I favor James over Snape as a character MOSTLY because we're given a sense that James sort of grew out of his more negative personality traits to a large extent, while Snape seemed to only spiral more into his bitterness.

And...well, I'm in school to be a teacher now. I've student taught. And I am rather...repelled by the way Snape treats those kids.There's clear favoritism and bullying and it always just really bothered me. Now, that's a PERSONAL preference of mine.

We know that Snape got on ok with some of his housemates. And...I have a hard time pitying Snape losing Lily because he actively drove her away. And I think Lily was totally justified in leaving an emotionally abusive friendship like that.

No doubt Snape is a tragic and complex character. His complexity, the good AND the bad, are what make him compelling at all.


As far as your question about James....eh. Can't say, really. We sort of get the idea that there weren't a lot of inter-house friendships going on at the time. It's possible that James simply wouldn't have gotten to KNOW them, had they been in other houses. Certainly his rather simplistic ideas about House loyalty are a failing of his, but a failing that many characters (including HAGRID of all people) share.

Sounds good to me.

Well as I said, its what he was taught and learned. your personality and how you act is in part made by your surroundings and how people treat you.

But are you a genius in a job you are forced into and that you hate?

I never saw it as abusive. Snape just seemed perfectly content in doing what ever she wanted. I do not support snape/lily because the relationship would not have worked and would have been bad for severus. Severus would just do what she wants and she'd control him to a point.

And honestly, I think he always needs someone to control him. First lily in a sense, then voldemort, his housemates and lastly albus. sad

exactly. smile

Well Im curious because it seems he liked gryffindors more then any other. I dont think he would have befrended them especially had they been in slytherin. I know him befriending them was cool and especially everything else he did but the whole friendship thing means a little less to me because they were all gryffindors. I don't think that made much sense...sorry.

Oh, and regarding james saving him. I always saw the anger as: snape didn't want to be saved. What if snape was trying to get himself killed that night and just needed a way to do it? and he hates james for saving him because he was just tired.

it's just a thought.

but yeah, you like james more then snape and I like snape more then james it's all cool. I will admit that james isn't so bad.

Oh! and sherlock holmes kinda is like snape in my opinion. Sorry if that ruins sherlock for you. biggrin

Prince's Tale, we see that Lily is really bothered by Snape's involvement in dark arts, and his racists friends and he doesn't....seem to care really. Like, as soon as she calls James a toerag, he just grins and then doesn't really address her worries.
So...that comes off as rather...emotionally unhealthy in a friendship.
I almost think that he idolized Lily as an idea more than he respected her as a person in some ways. So I can't fault Lily for ending that.


So, it would be cool to see more interhouse friendships going on. But, I don't think it diminished the value of the intrahouse friendships we see. -shrugs-


I'm not sure that I buy Snape being suicidal when he was 16 or whatever.


It doesn't ruin Sherlock for me, I just disagree.

Well I still disagree with the emotional abuse. But I do agree with the idolization. It wasn't going to work for ether of them and that's that.

Well on pottermore it says that slytherins do befriend lots of other houses and they arnt that bad.

I just see it I guess because I am like him (in a way) and my school experiences were kind of like his but not nearly as bad. If I was almost driven to suicide then Imagine what he felt. But disagreeing is all good.

Okay. smile

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1. I was only referring to the memories regarding his bullying. That's all.

2. I know your not.

3. That's only Lily's opinion or word which I could clame is biased in a way.

4. fine.

5. Well from what I saw snape never did anything to the marauders to warrent the bullying. They just wwnt of on him for no reason what so ever. As for his little 'friends' do you really think that they even cared that much about him. He was smart, he probably helped him with their homework, and he was most likely not going to f with them. They wernt really his friends, they just needed to use him. He was useful.

6. sure. Only JK can really tell us.

7.We don't know how many he did or did not kill. I need JK to tell us. And oh, yes, the one friend who treated you like a human told you to f off. Yes, she does not care about him anymore, thus every reason he had for the good side went away. If people in the school dont care about him and laugh as he gets hurt then why should he care about them? I am NOT saying it is right at all, I am just saying it's his logic.

8.but if snape's actions get no excuse then neither do Remus'. Remus knew the risks, it would have taken him like what a min? to drink the thing. He knew sirius was innocent and he knew the risks he was taking when he went out on the full moon. He still deserved to be sacked.

One does not almost get killed by a werewolf and come out mentally sound. As far as I'm concerned, he thought remus was dangerous, which he was, and proved to be, and needed to go.

9. didn't say it did.

10. Again, you do not make a genius teach a class full of students who are not only inept but don't give a crap (except for hermonie) I used to teach and it drove me up the wall when the kids would pourposly ignore and not care about the class. It's maddning. Why is he teaching anyways? is Albus making him? I wouldn't be suprised.


To point this one thing out though. And I'm not excusing him of the s**t he did, but: when one is surrounded by pain and is treated like s**t by everyone around him. Then he learns. He grew up not being taught how to treat people, through out school he learned that yeah, people are dicks and can't be trusted. And when lily left he learned that trusting people is wrong and should not be done.

I actually made an observation that Snape becomes attached (to a degree) to anyone who shows him kindness: Albus, lily, molly, auther. You know what I mean? its very sad but it's what I see. Joining that gang could have also been in part because they treated him with kindness and used him (I think).

you see with almost every character (almost) they did have s**t home lives but they also had something snape didn't and that was true love and friendship. I really think that if snape had more then just lily and if he was treated just a little better then he might not have joined the death eaters. but this is just my opinion and you can disagree.

My question is, that: would James have befrended those same people had they not been in gryfindor or have been slytherin?

I personally hate the words 'hero' and 'villain' because I don't see people that way. People are complex and shades of grey. I just wish more fans would see that.

I'm gunna go ahead and ignore the point by point, because I don't think most of it is relevant and it just takes to long.


Personally I favor James over Snape as a character MOSTLY because we're given a sense that James sort of grew out of his more negative personality traits to a large extent, while Snape seemed to only spiral more into his bitterness.

And...well, I'm in school to be a teacher now. I've student taught. And I am rather...repelled by the way Snape treats those kids.There's clear favoritism and bullying and it always just really bothered me. Now, that's a PERSONAL preference of mine.

We know that Snape got on ok with some of his housemates. And...I have a hard time pitying Snape losing Lily because he actively drove her away. And I think Lily was totally justified in leaving an emotionally abusive friendship like that.

No doubt Snape is a tragic and complex character. His complexity, the good AND the bad, are what make him compelling at all.


As far as your question about James....eh. Can't say, really. We sort of get the idea that there weren't a lot of inter-house friendships going on at the time. It's possible that James simply wouldn't have gotten to KNOW them, had they been in other houses. Certainly his rather simplistic ideas about House loyalty are a failing of his, but a failing that many characters (including HAGRID of all people) share.

Sounds good to me.

Well as I said, its what he was taught and learned. your personality and how you act is in part made by your surroundings and how people treat you.

But are you a genius in a job you are forced into and that you hate?

I never saw it as abusive. Snape just seemed perfectly content in doing what ever she wanted. I do not support snape/lily because the relationship would not have worked and would have been bad for severus. Severus would just do what she wants and she'd control him to a point.

And honestly, I think he always needs someone to control him. First lily in a sense, then voldemort, his housemates and lastly albus. sad

exactly. smile

Well Im curious because it seems he liked gryffindors more then any other. I dont think he would have befrended them especially had they been in slytherin. I know him befriending them was cool and especially everything else he did but the whole friendship thing means a little less to me because they were all gryffindors. I don't think that made much sense...sorry.

Oh, and regarding james saving him. I always saw the anger as: snape didn't want to be saved. What if snape was trying to get himself killed that night and just needed a way to do it? and he hates james for saving him because he was just tired.

it's just a thought.

but yeah, you like james more then snape and I like snape more then james it's all cool. I will admit that james isn't so bad.

Oh! and sherlock holmes kinda is like snape in my opinion. Sorry if that ruins sherlock for you. biggrin

Prince's Tale, we see that Lily is really bothered by Snape's involvement in dark arts, and his racists friends and he doesn't....seem to care really. Like, as soon as she calls James a toerag, he just grins and then doesn't really address her worries.
So...that comes off as rather...emotionally unhealthy in a friendship.
I almost think that he idolized Lily as an idea more than he respected her as a person in some ways. So I can't fault Lily for ending that.


So, it would be cool to see more interhouse friendships going on. But, I don't think it diminished the value of the intrahouse friendships we see. -shrugs-


I'm not sure that I buy Snape being suicidal when he was 16 or whatever.


It doesn't ruin Sherlock for me, I just disagree.

Well I still disagree with the emotional abuse. But I do agree with the idolization. It wasn't going to work for ether of them and that's that.

Well on pottermore it says that slytherins do befriend lots of other houses and they arnt that bad.

I just see it I guess because I am like him (in a way) and my school experiences were kind of like his but not nearly as bad. If I was almost driven to suicide then Imagine what he felt. But disagreeing is all good.

Okay. smile

My boyfriend is a Slytherin. I am a Slytherin fan. I know they aren't "that bad." Like I said.

I think if any Harry Potter character is like Sherlock, it's Regulus Black, if for no other reason than the Brother-rivalry-dynamic he has with Mycroft.

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1. I was only referring to the memories regarding his bullying. That's all.

2. I know your not.

3. That's only Lily's opinion or word which I could clame is biased in a way.

4. fine.

5. Well from what I saw snape never did anything to the marauders to warrent the bullying. They just wwnt of on him for no reason what so ever. As for his little 'friends' do you really think that they even cared that much about him. He was smart, he probably helped him with their homework, and he was most likely not going to f with them. They wernt really his friends, they just needed to use him. He was useful.

6. sure. Only JK can really tell us.

7.We don't know how many he did or did not kill. I need JK to tell us. And oh, yes, the one friend who treated you like a human told you to f off. Yes, she does not care about him anymore, thus every reason he had for the good side went away. If people in the school dont care about him and laugh as he gets hurt then why should he care about them? I am NOT saying it is right at all, I am just saying it's his logic.

8.but if snape's actions get no excuse then neither do Remus'. Remus knew the risks, it would have taken him like what a min? to drink the thing. He knew sirius was innocent and he knew the risks he was taking when he went out on the full moon. He still deserved to be sacked.

One does not almost get killed by a werewolf and come out mentally sound. As far as I'm concerned, he thought remus was dangerous, which he was, and proved to be, and needed to go.

9. didn't say it did.

10. Again, you do not make a genius teach a class full of students who are not only inept but don't give a crap (except for hermonie) I used to teach and it drove me up the wall when the kids would pourposly ignore and not care about the class. It's maddning. Why is he teaching anyways? is Albus making him? I wouldn't be suprised.


To point this one thing out though. And I'm not excusing him of the s**t he did, but: when one is surrounded by pain and is treated like s**t by everyone around him. Then he learns. He grew up not being taught how to treat people, through out school he learned that yeah, people are dicks and can't be trusted. And when lily left he learned that trusting people is wrong and should not be done.

I actually made an observation that Snape becomes attached (to a degree) to anyone who shows him kindness: Albus, lily, molly, auther. You know what I mean? its very sad but it's what I see. Joining that gang could have also been in part because they treated him with kindness and used him (I think).

you see with almost every character (almost) they did have s**t home lives but they also had something snape didn't and that was true love and friendship. I really think that if snape had more then just lily and if he was treated just a little better then he might not have joined the death eaters. but this is just my opinion and you can disagree.

My question is, that: would James have befrended those same people had they not been in gryfindor or have been slytherin?

I personally hate the words 'hero' and 'villain' because I don't see people that way. People are complex and shades of grey. I just wish more fans would see that.

I'm gunna go ahead and ignore the point by point, because I don't think most of it is relevant and it just takes to long.


Personally I favor James over Snape as a character MOSTLY because we're given a sense that James sort of grew out of his more negative personality traits to a large extent, while Snape seemed to only spiral more into his bitterness.

And...well, I'm in school to be a teacher now. I've student taught. And I am rather...repelled by the way Snape treats those kids.There's clear favoritism and bullying and it always just really bothered me. Now, that's a PERSONAL preference of mine.

We know that Snape got on ok with some of his housemates. And...I have a hard time pitying Snape losing Lily because he actively drove her away. And I think Lily was totally justified in leaving an emotionally abusive friendship like that.

No doubt Snape is a tragic and complex character. His complexity, the good AND the bad, are what make him compelling at all.


As far as your question about James....eh. Can't say, really. We sort of get the idea that there weren't a lot of inter-house friendships going on at the time. It's possible that James simply wouldn't have gotten to KNOW them, had they been in other houses. Certainly his rather simplistic ideas about House loyalty are a failing of his, but a failing that many characters (including HAGRID of all people) share.

Sounds good to me.

Well as I said, its what he was taught and learned. your personality and how you act is in part made by your surroundings and how people treat you.

But are you a genius in a job you are forced into and that you hate?

I never saw it as abusive. Snape just seemed perfectly content in doing what ever she wanted. I do not support snape/lily because the relationship would not have worked and would have been bad for severus. Severus would just do what she wants and she'd control him to a point.

And honestly, I think he always needs someone to control him. First lily in a sense, then voldemort, his housemates and lastly albus. sad

exactly. smile

Well Im curious because it seems he liked gryffindors more then any other. I dont think he would have befrended them especially had they been in slytherin. I know him befriending them was cool and especially everything else he did but the whole friendship thing means a little less to me because they were all gryffindors. I don't think that made much sense...sorry.

Oh, and regarding james saving him. I always saw the anger as: snape didn't want to be saved. What if snape was trying to get himself killed that night and just needed a way to do it? and he hates james for saving him because he was just tired.

it's just a thought.

but yeah, you like james more then snape and I like snape more then james it's all cool. I will admit that james isn't so bad.

Oh! and sherlock holmes kinda is like snape in my opinion. Sorry if that ruins sherlock for you. biggrin

Prince's Tale, we see that Lily is really bothered by Snape's involvement in dark arts, and his racists friends and he doesn't....seem to care really. Like, as soon as she calls James a toerag, he just grins and then doesn't really address her worries.
So...that comes off as rather...emotionally unhealthy in a friendship.
I almost think that he idolized Lily as an idea more than he respected her as a person in some ways. So I can't fault Lily for ending that.


So, it would be cool to see more interhouse friendships going on. But, I don't think it diminished the value of the intrahouse friendships we see. -shrugs-


I'm not sure that I buy Snape being suicidal when he was 16 or whatever.


It doesn't ruin Sherlock for me, I just disagree.

Well I still disagree with the emotional abuse. But I do agree with the idolization. It wasn't going to work for ether of them and that's that.

Well on pottermore it says that slytherins do befriend lots of other houses and they arnt that bad.

I just see it I guess because I am like him (in a way) and my school experiences were kind of like his but not nearly as bad. If I was almost driven to suicide then Imagine what he felt. But disagreeing is all good.

Okay. smile

My boyfriend is a Slytherin. I am a Slytherin fan. I know they aren't "that bad." Like I said.

I think if any Harry Potter character is like Sherlock, it's Regulus Black, if for no other reason than the Brother-rivalry-dynamic he has with Mycroft.

Yep. :3

Really? well I think snape is like sherlock because they are both ridiclously smart/ geniuses. They are both eccentric and are very cunning, sly, resourceful, and have the ability to lie and manipulate others if need be.

Plus movie sherlock is like snape and TV sherlock is like Regulas? or is it the other way round? you choose.

[[Ren The Ryoko]]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

Sounds good to me.

Well as I said, its what he was taught and learned. your personality and how you act is in part made by your surroundings and how people treat you.

But are you a genius in a job you are forced into and that you hate?

I never saw it as abusive. Snape just seemed perfectly content in doing what ever she wanted. I do not support snape/lily because the relationship would not have worked and would have been bad for severus. Severus would just do what she wants and she'd control him to a point.

And honestly, I think he always needs someone to control him. First lily in a sense, then voldemort, his housemates and lastly albus. sad

exactly. smile

Well Im curious because it seems he liked gryffindors more then any other. I dont think he would have befrended them especially had they been in slytherin. I know him befriending them was cool and especially everything else he did but the whole friendship thing means a little less to me because they were all gryffindors. I don't think that made much sense...sorry.

Oh, and regarding james saving him. I always saw the anger as: snape didn't want to be saved. What if snape was trying to get himself killed that night and just needed a way to do it? and he hates james for saving him because he was just tired.

it's just a thought.

but yeah, you like james more then snape and I like snape more then james it's all cool. I will admit that james isn't so bad.

Oh! and sherlock holmes kinda is like snape in my opinion. Sorry if that ruins sherlock for you. biggrin

Prince's Tale, we see that Lily is really bothered by Snape's involvement in dark arts, and his racists friends and he doesn't....seem to care really. Like, as soon as she calls James a toerag, he just grins and then doesn't really address her worries.
So...that comes off as rather...emotionally unhealthy in a friendship.
I almost think that he idolized Lily as an idea more than he respected her as a person in some ways. So I can't fault Lily for ending that.


So, it would be cool to see more interhouse friendships going on. But, I don't think it diminished the value of the intrahouse friendships we see. -shrugs-


I'm not sure that I buy Snape being suicidal when he was 16 or whatever.


It doesn't ruin Sherlock for me, I just disagree.

Well I still disagree with the emotional abuse. But I do agree with the idolization. It wasn't going to work for ether of them and that's that.

Well on pottermore it says that slytherins do befriend lots of other houses and they arnt that bad.

I just see it I guess because I am like him (in a way) and my school experiences were kind of like his but not nearly as bad. If I was almost driven to suicide then Imagine what he felt. But disagreeing is all good.

Okay. smile

My boyfriend is a Slytherin. I am a Slytherin fan. I know they aren't "that bad." Like I said.

I think if any Harry Potter character is like Sherlock, it's Regulus Black, if for no other reason than the Brother-rivalry-dynamic he has with Mycroft.

Yep. :3

Really? well I think snape is like sherlock because they are both ridiclously smart/ geniuses. They are both eccentric and are very cunning, sly, resourceful, and have the ability to lie and manipulate others if need be.

Plus movie sherlock is like snape and TV sherlock is like Regulas? or is it the other way round? you choose.

Snape just doesn't have the style, the swag, or the charisma of either, in my opinion. Sherlock doesn't have the BITTERNESS that Snape has.

I would pin Regulus closer to BBC Sherlock than RDJ Sherlock though.

[kraglin-obfonteri]

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

Sounds good to me.

Well as I said, its what he was taught and learned. your personality and how you act is in part made by your surroundings and how people treat you.

But are you a genius in a job you are forced into and that you hate?

I never saw it as abusive. Snape just seemed perfectly content in doing what ever she wanted. I do not support snape/lily because the relationship would not have worked and would have been bad for severus. Severus would just do what she wants and she'd control him to a point.

And honestly, I think he always needs someone to control him. First lily in a sense, then voldemort, his housemates and lastly albus. sad

exactly. smile

Well Im curious because it seems he liked gryffindors more then any other. I dont think he would have befrended them especially had they been in slytherin. I know him befriending them was cool and especially everything else he did but the whole friendship thing means a little less to me because they were all gryffindors. I don't think that made much sense...sorry.

Oh, and regarding james saving him. I always saw the anger as: snape didn't want to be saved. What if snape was trying to get himself killed that night and just needed a way to do it? and he hates james for saving him because he was just tired.

it's just a thought.

but yeah, you like james more then snape and I like snape more then james it's all cool. I will admit that james isn't so bad.

Oh! and sherlock holmes kinda is like snape in my opinion. Sorry if that ruins sherlock for you. biggrin

Prince's Tale, we see that Lily is really bothered by Snape's involvement in dark arts, and his racists friends and he doesn't....seem to care really. Like, as soon as she calls James a toerag, he just grins and then doesn't really address her worries.
So...that comes off as rather...emotionally unhealthy in a friendship.
I almost think that he idolized Lily as an idea more than he respected her as a person in some ways. So I can't fault Lily for ending that.


So, it would be cool to see more interhouse friendships going on. But, I don't think it diminished the value of the intrahouse friendships we see. -shrugs-


I'm not sure that I buy Snape being suicidal when he was 16 or whatever.


It doesn't ruin Sherlock for me, I just disagree.

Well I still disagree with the emotional abuse. But I do agree with the idolization. It wasn't going to work for ether of them and that's that.

Well on pottermore it says that slytherins do befriend lots of other houses and they arnt that bad.

I just see it I guess because I am like him (in a way) and my school experiences were kind of like his but not nearly as bad. If I was almost driven to suicide then Imagine what he felt. But disagreeing is all good.

Okay. smile

My boyfriend is a Slytherin. I am a Slytherin fan. I know they aren't "that bad." Like I said.

I think if any Harry Potter character is like Sherlock, it's Regulus Black, if for no other reason than the Brother-rivalry-dynamic he has with Mycroft.

Yep. :3

Really? well I think snape is like sherlock because they are both ridiclously smart/ geniuses. They are both eccentric and are very cunning, sly, resourceful, and have the ability to lie and manipulate others if need be.

Plus movie sherlock is like snape and TV sherlock is like Regulas? or is it the other way round? you choose.

Snape just doesn't have the style, the swag, or the charisma of either, in my opinion. Sherlock doesn't have the BITTERNESS that Snape has.

I would pin Regulus closer to BBC Sherlock than RDJ Sherlock though.

Agreed. When watching the movie I was like: hes close but just more bitter. Movie sherlock isn't that likeable or liked by many anyways.

Lol snapes a social retard. smile

[[Ren The Ryoko]]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

[Ren The Ryoko]

xfire-spiritx

Well I still disagree with the emotional abuse. But I do agree with the idolization. It wasn't going to work for ether of them and that's that.

Well on pottermore it says that slytherins do befriend lots of other houses and they arnt that bad.

I just see it I guess because I am like him (in a way) and my school experiences were kind of like his but not nearly as bad. If I was almost driven to suicide then Imagine what he felt. But disagreeing is all good.

Okay. smile

My boyfriend is a Slytherin. I am a Slytherin fan. I know they aren't "that bad." Like I said.

I think if any Harry Potter character is like Sherlock, it's Regulus Black, if for no other reason than the Brother-rivalry-dynamic he has with Mycroft.

Yep. :3

Really? well I think snape is like sherlock because they are both ridiclously smart/ geniuses. They are both eccentric and are very cunning, sly, resourceful, and have the ability to lie and manipulate others if need be.

Plus movie sherlock is like snape and TV sherlock is like Regulas? or is it the other way round? you choose.

Snape just doesn't have the style, the swag, or the charisma of either, in my opinion. Sherlock doesn't have the BITTERNESS that Snape has.

I would pin Regulus closer to BBC Sherlock than RDJ Sherlock though.

Agreed. When watching the movie I was like: hes close but just more bitter. Movie sherlock isn't that likeable or liked by many anyways.

Lol snapes a social retard. smile

Well, more modern adaptions of Sherlock do tend to make him more anti-social.
RDJ Sherlock is really...snarky, and funny if you ask me. He's closer to Sirius or James in that regard.
BBC Sherlock is a whole nother ball park on the anti-social scale. XD

But yeah....Snape is just too stewed in his bitter angriness for me to imagine him as Sherlock.

[Fringie Jester]

I've been reading some of the argument's of Snape vs James going on in this thread. James was a bully in school and Snape was a jerk at times sure. I am not taking up for either side when I say this but I think that a big reason that Snape became a Death Eater, was because he found acceptance with-in that group of people.

Think of being a Death Eater as a cult... who joins most cults? Well statistically speaking, cults go after people that are in college, young people, and people who seem to not fit in anywhere else in society... and people who usually join cults, just want to fit in and feel accepted somewhere.

Snape being abused at home (like others have said) probably would have left him as an introvert or misanthropic towards certain people. Kids like this get bullied a lot in school because they're different. So lets look at it from Snape's perspective here for a second. If you have been bullied (not just by James or Sirius but by his father as well) and left out of everything and this group of people shows up and starts praising your talents, then you're going to suddenly feel like you belong somewhere. Something he probably wasn't that used too.

Kids are easily influenced as well. They will do anything to try and fit in with some people. Especially when you're a teenager trying to figure out who you are. Being a teenager is difficult.

No. Snape wasn't a saint, not even trying to claim that he is one, but you have to look at all the hell that he went through that led him on the path to becoming a Death Eater. He didn't just wake up and say one day that he'd run off to join Voldemort. There is always reasons as to why people are the way that they are.