My Thoughts on "Choke"

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AlixMasters

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AlixMasters

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AlixMasters

I just had to LOL at the Malfoy reference. I get the comparison, but that's one I never thought I'd hear. XD

Though I do have to say, Rachel has been in public school for her whole life. You think she'd get the picture by now. Not to say that her fathers are bad parents by any means, but it doesn't seem like they taught her that life doesn't always go her way. I mean, praising her and encouraging her is one thing, but real life, especially showbiz, comes with rejection that her fathers, or Schue for that matter, never taught her. Either that, or Rachel just wants to believe she's all-around perfect. Which, in all honesty, wouldn't be that surprising.

If she thought she were perfect, she wouldn't be able to admit it when others do something better than her, which she occasionally, begrudgingly does. And yeah, her dads are great, but they basically pampered her all her life. I don't think she really had to interact with others on a deeper level before Glee club because she had never been in a club or anything that she had so much vested interest in before.

I agree, but Mercedes actually told he to say that she was better than her, and she didn't do it, despite the fact that they both kicked as at those Maria auditions.

She did admit it to someone else earlier. Though, in all honesty, the song they used for their call back was better suited to Mercedes. But, yeah, she should have admitted it, but I understand why she didn't. She needed the role of Maria for her application. Mercedes wasn't trying for any special school, so she didn't need it the way Rachel did. Though she did sing better than Rachel during the callback. Though, I think Rachel did better the first audition.

She may not have needed it for NYADA, but but that doesn't mean she didn't deserve it. In fact, Rachel had had tones of more solos than her by that point anyway, and she was aleady the star of the glee club by the time the auditions rolled around.

Though I have to say, I didn't like the way Mercedes handled sharing the part. If I were her, I would have jumped at it.

[gleek_loser2132]

I've honestly never been a huge Rachel Berry fan. Like, yeah, she's talented and amazing, and awesome and I like her voice. But she's not very popular and I hate that she thinks she's better than pretty much anyone. I think she got what was coming to her.

Buuuut. I do love that she was there for Kurt (and his own brother wasn't). I love that the two supported each other. And Rachel put me to tears with Cry. It was heart-wrenching and said.
And honestly, if someone had to choke, I'm pretty sure everyone suspected Rachel because if Kurt choked on his NYADA audition, fangirls would riot and kill Ryan Murphy in his sleep.

"I love you, Rachel Berry."

Kurt, you break my heart. And the song and dance to Not the Boy Next Door.... Too sexy for words.

[Sparx539]

I about died when Rachel got hers. Fabulous. heart

I've been in the place of the other gleeks in life rather often, and it was always fun to watch a "favorite" choke, or finally face rejection, as terrible as it sounds. The "real world" isn't forgiving, and won't bow down to you like Shue does/did for Rachel, and I was so excited to see that happen. And to see Kurt brush off Rachel's "advice" (I honestly feel like, though it was never stated, she was trying to sabatoge him) and come into his own...the glow he had was beautiful.

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Sparx539

I about died when Rachel got hers. Fabulous. heart

I've been in the place of the other gleeks in life rather often, and it was always fun to watch a "favorite" choke, or finally face rejection, as terrible as it sounds. The "real world" isn't forgiving, and won't bow down to you like Shue does/did for Rachel, and I was so excited to see that happen. And to see Kurt brush off Rachel's "advice" (I honestly feel like, though it was never stated, she was trying to sabatoge him) and come into his own...the glow he had was beautiful.

THIS.

[Ky to the rescue]

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I'm sorry, but I've choked at a big audition, too, but this isn't the end of the world for Rachel. There are other music schools out there, and she'll have other auditions, with a variety of outcomes.

So. About this. I've done that too. However... I had actually applied to other schools. I've seen no evidence that Rachel has. I really hope she did off screen 'cause... if she hasn't... Then it really kind of IS! She wants so badly to get out of that city. And if she did the stupid thing and didn't come up with a backup plan... Then I don't know what to say for her. I mean I saw this coming to an extent. But still. I'm really interested. I really really hope she had a backup plan. 'Cause what you're saying about it not being the end of the world pretty much rides on it.

Also, I really hope you're not asserting that her crying was overdramatic. Because I mean, I cried too. I was heartbroken. Forgive a person for wanting to go to their first choice here. I managed to find a place I like, and hopefully she will too. But also remember that they're in a very small town with not all that much money and not very much access to resources. It's much harder for her than it is, and let's face it, she's been dreaming about New York for years. Before they'd found NYADA, they'd already nixed most of the other choices for various reasons. And, she's looking for Musical Theatre, not just Music. There are a lot less of those programs than there are Music Performance ones. But the point I'm really trying to make here is that she deserves the right to cry. That wasn't even a private audition. Her friends and teacher were there. Years of work crumbled before her eyes. It was public humiliation, and that feeling of knowing you know something perfectly but screwing it up anyway is simply the worst. If she still hasn't picked herself up in an episode or two, then it'll be time for her to get over it and look elsewhere. But for the episode? I think her reaction was reasonable and appropriate.

[Ky to the rescue]

Holy crap. I read through this entire thing. It's been one hell of a debate. Though I'm not sure I have much to add. I can see that the op is going to be rock-solid stubborn on the issue, so the best I can do is agree to disagree. I think that over 3 seasons, Rachel has shown an incredible amount of growth. I can't ignore the fact that she was, in the end, willing to address her fiancé's newfound dreams, nor can I ignore the fact that if she'd thought taking a risk was a good idea, she'd have done so herself. But then again, no amount of evidence has been enough to have peoples' ideas even considered. So I'm not going to really beat a dead horse.

What I would rather say is that I liked the episode overall. It hurt my heart to see Rachel choke, because I know that feeling very well. I knew the piece forward and backwards, and I messed up even with the music. I've always been HORRIBLE at auditions, and she cracked under the combined pressure of who it was, what it meant to her, and the fact that taking a risk worked for her friend and she had no such risk planned.

As for the Beiste thing, I am quite concerned about it. I think since she's a bit more recurring than Kurofsky, they may give it more attention. But it completely overshadowed Puckerman, and frankly, I thought the storyline was unnecessary. Although I did like the idea of it, I would have liked to see them hold it off until next season, and let us focus on the graduating class right now. Which, while I'm here, makes me want to mention Tina. I firmly believe that next season she'll have her shot. She's not graduating right now, and while it's not fair, I do believe that the show itself is putting her on the back burner to focus on the graduating class.

I think that Puckerman has a way out. It's called summer school. Or asking for extra credit, or a make-up. BUT. His failure could mean Puckerman for next season, and I'm not sure I'm willing to complain about that.

Anything else to address...? I don't think so. I'm gonna hit the hay.

[Ky to the rescue]

garra_eyes

You are the best person. emotion_kirakira

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Ky to the rescue

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I'm sorry, but I've choked at a big audition, too, but this isn't the end of the world for Rachel. There are other music schools out there, and she'll have other auditions, with a variety of outcomes.

So. About this. I've done that too. However... I had actually applied to other schools. I've seen no evidence that Rachel has. I really hope she did off screen 'cause... if she hasn't... Then it really kind of IS! She wants so badly to get out of that city. And if she did the stupid thing and didn't come up with a backup plan... Then I don't know what to say for her. I mean I saw this coming to an extent. But still. I'm really interested. I really really hope she had a backup plan. 'Cause what you're saying about it not being the end of the world pretty much rides on it.

Also, I really hope you're not asserting that her crying was overdramatic. Because I mean, I cried too. I was heartbroken. Forgive a person for wanting to go to their first choice here. I managed to find a place I like, and hopefully she will too. But also remember that they're in a very small town with not all that much money and not very much access to resources. It's much harder for her than it is, and let's face it, she's been dreaming about New York for years. Before they'd found NYADA, they'd already nixed most of the other choices for various reasons. And, she's looking for Musical Theatre, not just Music. There are a lot less of those programs than there are Music Performance ones. But the point I'm really trying to make here is that she deserves the right to cry. That wasn't even a private audition. Her friends and teacher were there. Years of work crumbled before her eyes. It was public humiliation, and that feeling of knowing you know something perfectly but screwing it up anyway is simply the worst. If she still hasn't picked herself up in an episode or two, then it'll be time for her to get over it and look elsewhere. But for the episode? I think her reaction was reasonable and appropriate.

I never said her crying was over dramatic. And even if she didn't apply to other schools, there's no rule that says she can't aply to a myriad of music schools the following semester. In fact, I think Rachel could do with a break from school to sort out her life.

[Ky to the rescue]

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I never said her crying was over dramatic. And even if she didn't apply to other schools, there's no rule that says she can't aply to a myriad of music schools the following semester. In fact, I think Rachel could do with a break from school to sort out her life.

Fair enough. It just started to sound like an implication toward the end of your post there.

Although... a break from school? You mean as in not going straight through to college? Hm... I suppose that does work for some people. Hell, if she didn't have a backup school, she may as well, seing as at best, she'd end up at a community college. Although, perhaps what she should really do is the CC thing until she finds a good 4-year.

It's just stupid that it would have to come down to that. She knows exactly what she wants, and for the most part, how to get there. It just takes an internet search to find more schools, so her waiting a semester sounds like a sucky compromise. So I really, really, hope she applied elsewhere. emotion_facepalm

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Ky to the rescue

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I never said her crying was over dramatic. And even if she didn't apply to other schools, there's no rule that says she can't aply to a myriad of music schools the following semester. In fact, I think Rachel could do with a break from school to sort out her life.

Fair enough. It just started to sound like an implication toward the end of your post there.

Although... a break from school? You mean as in not going straight through to college? Hm... I suppose that does work for some people. Hell, if she didn't have a backup school, she may as well, seing as at best, she'd end up at a community college. Although, perhaps what she should really do is the CC thing until she finds a good 4-year.

It's just stupid that it would have to come down to that. She knows exactly what she wants, and for the most part, how to get there. It just takes an internet search to find more schools, so her waiting a semester sounds like a sucky compromise. So I really, really, hope she applied elsewhere. emotion_facepalm

I doubt it, since Rachel's always been one to put all her eggs in one basket. Her arrogance finally bit her in the a**.

[Ky to the rescue]

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I doubt it, since Rachel's always been one to put all her eggs in one basket. Her arrogance finally bit her in the a**.

That's true. She was flipping all the shits when she thought she hadn't gotten a letter. Though in this case, I wouldn't put it all on her arrogance, but rather maybe her ignorance. When she went to Emma, she was given only one school idea, and she wholeheartedly accepted it as her one chance to escape that town. And remember: so did Kurt. And look at Quinn; she got into the one school she really wanted, setting an example to the others that your big dream school can and will happen. (Let's not forget her encouraging Rachel not to marry Finn by mentioning that she was certain NYADA would happen for her.) So I ask, did we really see anyone other than Tina (on her boyfriend's behalf, even) put in more than one? In that sense, I think the whole senior class is flawed. I think they all kind of got set on one place and went "all or nothing" on us.

Don't be so quick to blame everything on an attitude that was most prominent in season one (and possibly two, which I don't remember as well xD). Sure, she may still be very confident in her abilities, but why shouldn't she be? She has about one or two competitors by this point, has been pointed to as the go-to singer by even other glee members' admission, and frankly, has the tallent to match her ego. But she has toned it down quite a bit from the start, and we see that with the acquisition of the Treble Tones, with her attempt to help Finn find a dream and work with him on it, hell, even the duet with Santana. The fact is, our current Rachel may be confident and boast a lot, but she hasn't clung nearly as tightly to the spotlight, nor done anything underhanded in quite a while, and though it may take her some time to come around, she is willing to put others before her if she cares about them.

So returning back to your statement, I think that this "eggs in one basket" thing is just a flaw that the students have overall. The cheerleaders were all flipping out, thinking they'd all lose positions in college if they didn't go to nationals when Sue was sick. Kurt was convinced that losing that election would lose his chance at NYADA, and the same applies to the school play. Finn didn't get picked for a football scholarship? That's when his self-esteem and his drive to even go anywhere went off the deep end. I can go on, but I think my point is pretty much made. I think the show just doesn't bother with giving them a lot of options for multiple reasons, the main one being time, and the other for dramatic effect. I mean, really; if they all had second choices to fall back on, wouldn't it be boring?

For example: at the end of this episode, do you really think Rachel would have been quite as devastated if her mindset were "well at least I can go to one of these other pretty good schools nearby..."? I doubt it. Or Kurofsky, you liked him right? He put absolutely all of his hope into Kurt and tried to kill himself when Kurt wasn't there for him. That may be the only person he knows off the top of his head, but he did know other gay places. But what if he'd said "fine, I'll ask someone else?" We wouldn't have gotten the attempted suicide, or the Sebastian straightening up, or the circle-talk in Glee club. Dramatic effect requires certain stupidity sometimes. You can't really blame that on anyone but the writers.

[IshidasGirl]

I liked choke lots of klain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PuppetWriter]

The problem in this discussion for me is that I can understand where people come from when they say they don't like Rachel. It's a personal preference thing. I simply think it's unfair to hate her for things that other characters do as well, yet the rest are exempt from being disliked. Quinn has done way more underhanded things than Rachel. Kurt's had his moments as well. Most of the Glee Clubbers have done things similar to the things Rachel has done in the past. And the keyword here is 'past.' I think if anyone simply watched the third season of Glee without watching the first two seasons, they wouldn't really have a reason to dislike Rachel because she has really grown a lot as a person. I stick with my theory that she's like a three year old learning social skills for the first time at the beginning of the show.

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Ky to the rescue

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I doubt it, since Rachel's always been one to put all her eggs in one basket. Her arrogance finally bit her in the a**.

That's true. She was flipping all the shits when she thought she hadn't gotten a letter. Though in this case, I wouldn't put it all on her arrogance, but rather maybe her ignorance. When she went to Emma, she was given only one school idea, and she wholeheartedly accepted it as her one chance to escape that town. And remember: so did Kurt. And look at Quinn; she got into the one school she really wanted, setting an example to the others that your big dream school can and will happen. (Let's not forget her encouraging Rachel not to marry Finn by mentioning that she was certain NYADA would happen for her.) So I ask, did we really see anyone other than Tina (on her boyfriend's behalf, even) put in more than one? In that sense, I think the whole senior class is flawed. I think they all kind of got set on one place and went "all or nothing" on us.

THIS.

Also, I was never a Karofsky fan, and I don't really think it's fair of you to assume I only cut the characters I like slack. I've been involved in situations concerning suicide in my own life, so yes, I was obviously emotionally moved despite the fact that I hate the character.

Yes, the fact that I hate Rachel has an impact on my response to the character, but it's not the only factor in it.

[Ky to the rescue]

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THIS.

Also, I was never a Karofsky fan, and I don't really think it's fair of you to assume I only cut the characters I like slack. I've been involved in situations concerning suicide in my own life, so yes, I was obviously emotionally moved despite the fact that I hate the character.

Yes, the fact that I hate Rachel has an impact on my response to the character, but it's not the only factor in it.

Hehe, nice. I watched the episode again yesterday, with my mom who was just catching up. She brought up the "eggs in one basket" phrase for Rachel, too. I also just saw yesterday's episode, and without spoiling it, I'm gonna have to say I'm really disappointed with how they handled the carryover, and hope they do better next time but... Nationals? Yeah right.

Really? I could have sworn you said you liked the guy. Perhaps I misread, but damn are you quick to take offense. Assume, really? You've flat-out said that you hated Rachel on multiple occasions and then led into why you therefore think [fill in the blanks]. That's not making an assumption, it's making an observation and testing a theory. It's a debate, do you expect me not to use my resources? Using a character you like is tactically smart, but that doesn't mean I assumed much of anything. Even if it's not the "only" factor for you, it's still a big one. Anything a person feels passionate about, positive or otherwise, is going to be something they're more likely to respond and connect to. That's just how we work. Hell, for all I know, you don't much like Kurt, but you've talked about her in a more positive light. I think you're reading too much into that and kind of splitting hairs here. We were just actually agreeing on something [progress!].