My Thoughts on "Choke"

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I loved this episode. The songs were fantastic (Florence + The Machine, My Fair Lady AND The Boy Next Door?! XD), Tina got two solos, and Rachel got HER'S. Don't get me wrong, I love Lea Michele to pieces, and I always have. But Rachel makes me want to tear my hair out.

I'm sorry, but I've choked at a big audition, too, but this isn't the end of the world for Rachel. There are other music schools out there, and she'll have other auditions, with a variety of outcomes. That's showbiz. I'm sick and tired of Schue the non-teacher playing ******** favorites with her! Because what did that lead to, huh? The other Gleeks hardly every getting a chance to shine, and Rachel never experiencing rejection. This will be the first of many for Rachel, but it doesn't ******** mean her dreams are over. Chill out, guys.

In all honesty, I hate Rachel's character, and I don't see why Finn puts up with her at all. Hell, she's told him repeatedly that she'll put her dreams before his in a heartbeat, and he's just along for the rides and the sex. That's not love, that's manipulation. Rachel, Quinn, and Santana for that matter all get to get away with everything on the show, with the excuse being "that's just their personality." BULLSHIT. Hell, even Santana and Quinn have had to deal with heavier s**t than Rachel ever has. But at leasat they've both managed to show the TINIEST (yes, I mean you, Quinn...) bit of maturity in the process. Rachel's mind is still very much that of a child. She wants what she wants, and ******** everyone else...EVEN KURT.

Kurt never did anything to sabotage Rachel, and now she goes and tries to throw his a** under the bus. ******** that. Kurt's performance was amazing. I'm so glad he went with that amazing gut of his.

Also, Dot Jones was amazing in this episode. Honestly, I never pegged Cooter as a wife beater, and regardless, I realize this is a soap, and they need to fill their controversy quota. Nevertheless, DJ gave an amazing performance as Beiste, and I look forward to seeing how this storyline unfolds.

[Eponine Berry Thenardier]

I can say this episode was too fantastic! cuz... after the episode on my way... they never had dramatic scenes...

[garra_eyes]

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In all honesty, I hate Rachel's character, and I don't see why Finn puts up with her at all. Hell, she's told him repeatedly that she'll put her dreams before his in a heartbeat, and he's just along for the rides and the sex. That's not love, that's manipulation.

I have to... vehemently disagree here. Yes, Rachel has said that her dreams come before everything else, but I don't think that makes her a bad person, despite what the show occasionally tries to tell us there. Rachel is driven. She doesn't just let things happen to her. She decides what she wants, and she goes out and achieves those goals without letting anything get in her way. And that's awesome, especially for a female character. Unfortunately, having agency is not a guarantee for female characters in shows, so having a character like Rachel who not only has agency, but uses it at every turn, that's something I think should be admired.

But of course, what is she willing to give up for those dreams? What are we all willing to give up for our dreams? Everyone prioritizes things differently, and everyone has their opinions on how they should prioritize. And Rachel's number one priority? Well, most people would say that Rachel is Rachel's number one priority, and then go on about how selfish she is and blah blah blah, but I don't think that's true. It's not that she's her biggest priority. Being who she feels she truly is and finding a future where she can be that person, that's her biggest priority. And that's not selfish. Wanting to be yourself isn't selfish.

As for Finn, Rachel has been upfront with him from the start. She is going to New York. New York is in her blood. Performing is in her blood. Broadway is in her blood. She has been working her a** off since like... age two to get there, and she's going. And Finn's totally supportive of that! Until he has a competing dream... He tells Rachel he's fine letting her go her own way after graduation, but then when his future starts looking glum, he proposes to her. And... ok, whatever. Not the best reason to propose, but I'm done talking about that. Then, Rachel's dreams of NY look like they for sure will come true, and Finn says that's cool. He'll go to NY with her. Then, he gets an idea of what he might want to do with his future. And sure, that's fine, but suddenly turning around and expecting Rachel to go back on the one caveat that has ALWAYS been part of their relationship, because otherwise she doesn't love him? If anything, THAT is manipulation, not Rachel wanting to follow her dreams.

How many tv shows or movies have you seen where a guy has to choose between his career dreams and a woman? Not many. (Has anyone seen ANY? I can't think of any right now.) But how many tv shows or movies have you seen where a woman has to make that choice? A lot. And the message from society is always the same. Love is more important, so you should give up your other dreams, ladies. But for men? They get to have it all. (After all, their ladies gave up their dreams already. Gotta have someone bringing home the bacon now.) So the fact that Rachel is getting flack for not giving up the dreams she has had for her entire life just so she can be with her high school sweetheart? Yeah, that bugs me.

Rachel should follow her dreams. She should do what's going to make her happy. If she doesn't love Finn enough to compete with her love of Broadway, that's not some horrible thing. Maybe Finn isn't the one for her. Maybe she's not going to get married. Maybe neither of those things are the horrible horrible things everyone seems to want us to think they are.


Anyway, long rant. Few things about the actual episode though.

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Kurt never did anything to sabotage Rachel, and now she goes and tries to throw his a** under the bus. ******** that. Kurt's performance was amazing. I'm so glad he went with that amazing gut of his.

I don't see how this was Rachel trying to throw Kurt under the bus. She has made it very, VERY clear that she wants both her and Kurt to get into NYADA, so sabotaging him would just seem... counter productive. I'm pretty sure we're meant to believe that Rachel honestly believed the advice she gave Kurt was good. She was trying to help him. Ultimately, it paid for Kurt to go with his gut, but that was still a gamble.

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Also, Dot Jones was amazing in this episode. Honestly, I never pegged Cooter as a wife beater, and regardless, I realize this is a soap, and they need to fill their controversy quota. Nevertheless, DJ gave an amazing performance as Beiste, and I look forward to seeing how this storyline unfolds.

I really wish they would stop trying to act like a soap (because really, it's actually not a soap, nor was it ever meant to be, so the fact that they keep going back to this stuff is... unnecessary?) because they're not that great at it. One thing Glee is blessed with is really great actors who can sell the emotion of their stories. Dot was amazing last night, and she got me tearing up a few times. However... when Glee gets serious, it does so for very short periods and mixes those serious topics in with a lot of very thick important plotty stuff for different characters. And it just... it doesn't work.

Serious stories demand serious attention and serious time to address. I'm still holding out hope that they might continue with Dot's story to actually give it that time and hopefully address some of the things they failed to address last night, but... I don't know. Glee doesn't have a good track record of that, especially this season. And the fact that they paired this story with two plots that were very important to our main cast just feeds into my doubt that they will give this issue more time. Rachel and Kurt's auditions were very important for them, especially Rachel's, because it completely changes the track of the show's main character. Puck's story was... well, not as important as Rachel's but still important enough to possibly change his whole future on the show. Those two stories should have been given the time and emotional beats to be big things. Instead, they were put in the same episode of a subject that demands the time and emotional beats to be big things. And the juxtaposition of Puck and Rachel's stories next to Bieste's just left them feeling like not that big of a deal. Meanwhile, Bieste's story felt (to me) like it was barely even touched on.

I guess, what I'm trying to say here was that if they continue with Bieste's storyline (and if they actually get the guys involved in it, because having male allies against DA is a good thing), I think I might really appreciate that story. I just don't think that mixing this story with big plot events for our main characters was a good way to serve either of those stories.

I had the same problem with Karofsky's OMW plot being thrown in with Regionals, blackmail, Sebastian's character redemption, and Finchel wedding plans. I mean, I had other problems with that episode as well, but that was a big one. When Glee tries to tackle big issues, it doesn't handle it well imo.

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garra_eyes

First of all, Rachel going for her dreams is not selfish. What is selfish, however, is her constantly stepping over people to make those dreams come true. For the past three years, she's been stringing Finn along, and he has always had to take a back seat to her. If Finn were fine with that, no problem. But he's obviously not. In fact, when he has broken up with her, Rachel then goes and gets all jealous when he's dating someone else. That's not fair. You're either with Finn or you're not. He's told her more than once that his dreams have to matter in their relationship, too. But Rachel won't listen, and she has no right to string Finn along like she has been doing.

Also, it is beyond clear that Rachel tried to sabotage Kurt. She might not have been outwardly bitchy about it, but it was clear from the beginning that "Music of the Night" wasn't Kurt's song. Me told him to sing it so he would bomb, and therefore give her a better chance of making it into NYADA. After his audition, she was happy for him, yes, but she also had an uncomfortable look on her face that had more to do with just her being nervous.

Glee was meant to be a soap opera from day one. Degrassi with songs. Which is not a problem by any means. The thing is, the show does in fact fit the soap template. Some people (not necessarily you), refuse to look at it that way because the word "soap" comes with negative or melodramatic conotations. But the fact is, take out the music and that's what Glee is. Which is fine. And as such, Glee, like any other soap, primetime or daytime, deals with a multitude of issues. Yes, sometimes they feel "token" (you have your gay students, lesbian, bisexual, pregnant cheerleader, handicapped students, abused students, etc), but that doesn't mean that these issues don't reflect real life. That said, I do hope they flesh out the Beiste storyline, and take the Karofsky storyline off the back burner (as long as they don't hook him up with Kurt).

[garra_eyes]

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First of all, Rachel going for her dreams is not selfish. What is selfish, however, is her constantly stepping over people to make those dreams come true. For the past three years, she's been stringing Finn along, and he has always had to take a back seat to her.

Except... she really hasn't. During her sophomore and junior years of high school, she wanted to date a guy she liked. Sometimes they did date, and sometimes they didn't. Pretty normal stuff. However, at the end of her junior year, she decided that she was going to Broadway. That was her dream and that was her love, and that's what she was going to do. Then Finn wanted to get back together. At first she said no, but finally agreed to date him again as long as he realized that she was going to New York after they graduated. Rachel made it very, very clear in the New York episode that if they were going to date, Broadway was still going to come first for her. She wasn't going to give that up. And Finn accepted that.

Rachel has not been stringing Finn along. He has known full well this whole time, especially in the last year, what Rachel wanted for her future and from him. (Note that, at that point, Rachel really didn't care if Finn came with her or not to NY.)

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If Finn were fine with that, no problem. But he's obviously not. In fact, when he has broken up with her, Rachel then goes and gets all jealous when he's dating someone else. That's not fair. You're either with Finn or you're not.

And Finn has done the same thing to Rachel. See Jesse's Girl and Prom Queen. Two of the big ones.

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He's told her more than once that his dreams have to matter in their relationship, too. But Rachel won't listen, and she has no right to string Finn along like she has been doing.

First off, has Finn ever told her that his dreams have to matter two before they got engaged? No. Why? Because Rachel actually supported his dreams. Finn wants to run Burt's garage? ok. Finn wants to try to get a football scholarship? Sounds good. Finn wants to come to New York next year? GREAT! Finn wants to marry Rachel? Well... alright, she can get on board with that. But the whole being engaged thing? That changes things. They are now tied together. If they get married, they sort of have to end up in the same place. Before, their dreams were not in competition, and Rachel was more than happy to let Finn do what he wanted.

But now? Remember that Rachel's number one concern in getting back together with Finn was that if she did that, it might ruin her chances to follow her dreams. And Finn assured her that it wouldn't. The only reason she got back together with Finn, a reason that Finn was well aware of, was because they had both decided that Rachel was going to New York no matter what. She was going to follow the dream she'd had since she was an infant.

And then Finn decides they should move to L.A. instead? Anyone who doesn't think Rachel had the right to throw a fit at this isn't watching the same show I am. Finn told Rachel her dreams would come first to get her to date him. He told her that he would go along with her dreams to get her to marry him. Now, he's telling her that his dreams that he has had for two days are more important? Hell, no. If he wants to break so they can go their separate ways, that's one thing. If he wants to take a break or try the long distance thing, that's also fine. If he wants Rachel to give up the dreams he already told her he would support completely, that's not ok. Not at all. And that's exactly what he did in BB.

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Also, it is beyond clear that Rachel tried to sabotage Kurt. She might not have been outwardly bitchy about it, but it was clear from the beginning that "Music of the Night" wasn't Kurt's song. Me told him to sing it so he would bomb, and therefore give her a better chance of making it into NYADA. After his audition, she was happy for him, yes, but she also had an uncomfortable look on her face that had more to do with just her being nervous.

Narrative intent. Glee really isn't a subtle show. If they wanted us to believe that Rachel tried to sabotage Kurt, they would have made it obvious. Instead, they showed the two practicing together. They showed Rachel giving Kurt advice that she was following as well. (ie Go with some big, general audience broadway number that you have been practicing for a very long time.)

And speaking of Glee not being subtle, it was very clear to us as an audience that Music of the Night wasn't Kurt's song. But, Kurt thought he was doing well with it. Blaine thought Kurt did well with it. (And let's be honest. Chris's voice did sound really good in that song.) He has been putting everything into that song, Rachel is not the only person who thinks this song is a good idea and that Kurt is doing well with it. However, we as an audience are meant to be a bit bored with it to highlight the fact that the risk Kurt takes later was CLEARLY the right choice.

As for Rachel's face being a bit more than performance jitters, of course it was. Carmen has just told Kurt that what most impressed her about his performance is that he took a big risk, and Rachel doesn't have anything risky in her performance. Of course she's more than a little nervous about how it's going to be received.

I just think that this "sabotage" can only be seen if you assume it's there in the first place and then look for anything to support that belief. It certainly is not a clear message from what we have been given in the episode.

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Glee was meant to be a soap opera from day one. Degrassi with songs.

Actually, Glee was meant to be a comedy from day one. (Hence the reason it's in the comedy category for awards, even now) It was meant to be a much lighter show than what it has become.

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Which is not a problem by any means. The thing is, the show does in fact fit the soap template. Some people (not necessarily you), refuse to look at it that way because the word "soap" comes with negative or melodramatic conotations. But the fact is, take out the music and that's what Glee is. Which is fine. And as such, Glee, like any other soap, primetime or daytime, deals with a multitude of issues. Yes, sometimes they feel "token" (you have your gay students, lesbian, bisexual, pregnant cheerleader, handicapped students, abused students, etc), but that doesn't mean that these issues don't reflect real life. That said, I do hope they flesh out the Beiste storyline, and take the Karofsky storyline off the back burner (as long as they don't hook him up with Kurt).

The reason "soap" has a negative connotation is that it is only ever used to refer to a very specific genre of daytime television. I think the word you're looking for to describe glee (and also Degrassi) is drama. The two refer to very different genres. (Most notably in the fact that dramas deal with realistic issues, while soaps deal with the fact that Pepe's twin brother, Pepi, was the baby daddy, but he was murdered by Margarit's cousin, who had an illicit affair with Pepe twenty years ago and was just released from jail.) Also, soaps have a negative connotation because the actors on soaps are generally not so great. The actors on dramas? Generally pretty good. So... yeah. I'm just gonna assume you mean drama instead of soap here, and work from there.

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But the fact is, take out the music and that's what Glee is. Which is fine. And as such, Glee, like any other soap, primetime or daytime, deals with a multitude of issues. Yes, sometimes they feel "token" (you have your gay students, lesbian, bisexual, pregnant cheerleader, handicapped students, abused students, etc), but that doesn't mean that these issues don't reflect real life.

I honestly think that glee should be free to handle whatever issues it wants to. Provided glee does so with care and respect for the people who have been through those things and for how complicated those issues really are.

In other words, I'm not fine with glee tackling these issues, because glee keeps doing it in offensive ways.

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That said, I do hope they flesh out the Beiste storyline, and take the Karofsky storyline off the back burner (as long as they don't hook him up with Kurt).

They're not bringing Karofsky back. If the writers had any intention of actually following up on that story, they wouldn't have transferred him to another school. They wouldn't have moved him away McKinley, the one school we have any investment in, and the show is not going to take the time to follow the story of a guest star at another school just to finish up this story. If they had any investment in it, they would have used a character at McKinley at the very least. They brought Karofsky back for a special, shocking episode, and they're not going to pay him any more attention. (esp this year, seeing as Max Adler was off filming something else during the time the cast was finishing filming the season)

At this point, with the shitty way they've handled Karofsky's character, I'm just hoping he never comes back on the show so that we don't have to deal with that terrible writing ever again.

As for Bieste... I have hope. Bieste isn't a main character, so we're not going to see everything she goes through, but she's a part of the show enough that it would not be difficult for glee to revisit her story several more times. They dealt with Bieste's situation (specifically) well enough. There were some problematic things about how they handled... other aspects of the story line, but considering those problematic things are problematic on a societal level (and also considering glee's history of misogyny) I do think that what we got was the best that we could have hoped for on Glee. And I'm a little nervous as to how they might address this story in the future, but I'm hopeful.

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garra_eyes

And we disagree yet again. I'll give you that Finn knew what he was getting into from the beginning. But still, Rachel is only okay with him if his dreams are in line with her's. Finn is only human, and a senior in high school at that. He's allowed to change his mind. But if he does, Rachel just kicks him to the curb? That far from love and commitment. I just don't like Finchel in general, and I haven't liked them since day one.

And yes, Rachel has stepped over people. Constantly. The thing is, every choir director/glee club teacher has favorites. I know. I've been there. Rachel is Schue's favorite, despite the entire glee club having amazing voices. So, she takes advantage of that. To the point where she was literally getting every solo, and trying to kick Mercedes' a** (figuratively) to get Maria. No, I don't think Mercedes' ultimate reaction was justified, but her feelings were. But that's another story.

Rachel did try to sabotage Kurt. She and Kurt knew a lot about NYADA before going into the audition. They both knew that "Music of the Night had been heard way too many times, and that it wasn't the song that would get him into NYADA. But she convinced him to go for it under the guise of being supportive. Kurt is a determined dreamer, too. But he would never throw Rachel under the bus like she tried to do to him. It's one thing to aim to win. It's another to plot against people who are supportive of you to do it.

Also, as I've mentioned before, there are other music schools out there. Rejection is part of showbiz...something Schue, and apparently no one else in her life ever taught her. Just because she blew one audition out of a career's worth doesn't mean her dreams are over. Of course, her first failure is going to sting like a b***h, but she could have applied to other dramatic arts schools. Instead, she put all her eggs in one basket.

Glee is a soap. In fact, just because it is, that's not a bad thing. Soaps are a valid art form, and they don't just deal with the cliche baby daddy plot. There are daytime soaps, like "As the World Turns", or primetime soaps, like "One Tree Hill", or "Grey's Anatomy." I think that's a really narrow way of looking at it. Soaps deal with the drama surrounding groups of people, and Glee has tackled a great deal of those topics. Homosexuality, teen pregnancy, feuds, abuse, etc. It's like Degrassi with singing, despite the fact that it's not what Glee set out to be. Yes, it is partly a comedy. But Glee is put in the comedy/MUSICAL category, since it is a musical show.

[garra_eyes]

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And we disagree yet again. I'll give you that Finn knew what he was getting into from the beginning. But still, Rachel is only okay with him if his dreams are in line with her's. Finn is only human, and a senior in high school at that. He's allowed to change his mind. But if he does, Rachel just kicks him to the curb? That far from love and commitment. I just don't like Finchel in general, and I haven't liked them since day one.

1. I agree that it is 100% completely on the other side of the field from commitment. But then again, I also don't think that Rachel is ready for commitment in a relationship right now (nor should she have to be) and am soooo not a fan of the whole engagement thing. BUT, that's a different issue....

2. I don't think it's necessarily "so far from love." Splitting up doesn't have to be about not loving the other person. Sometimes relationships just don't work out, and it's ok to say goodbye to them. It doesn't mean you don't love the person. It just means that you both recognize that you're going to be better off apart then you are together. And sweet jesus, this is SO the case for Finchel imo. Rachel knows that the best thing for her and the thing she wants the most is to be in NY. If that doesn't gel with her being with Finn, it's totally fine for them to split. And if being in NY with Rachel isn't what's going to be best for Finn, he's totally justified in splitting as well.

3. I'm not a Finchel fan either. I don't think Finn and Rachel have a great relationship. I just also don't think that Rachel is totally to blame for that, or that her having dreams of her own that don't involve Finn in the least is a bad thing.

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And yes, Rachel has stepped over people. Constantly. The thing is, every choir director/glee club teacher has favorites. I know. I've been there. Rachel is Schue's favorite, despite the entire glee club having amazing voices. So, she takes advantage of that. To the point where she was literally getting every solo, and trying to kick Mercedes' a** (figuratively) to get Maria. No, I don't think Mercedes' ultimate reaction was justified, but her feelings were. But that's another story.

That is another story. And I agree, Rachel has stepped over people to get what she wants. And she has learned her lesson in all of those cases.

What I'm saying is that she didn't step all over Kurt in this specific case.

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Rachel did try to sabotage Kurt. She and Kurt knew a lot about NYADA before going into the audition. They both knew that "Music of the Night had been heard way too many times, and that it wasn't the song that would get him into NYADA. But she convinced him to go for it under the guise of being supportive. Kurt is a determined dreamer, too. But he would never throw Rachel under the bus like she tried to do to him. It's one thing to aim to win. It's another to plot against people who are supportive of you to do it.

I don't think that the show supports that opinion at all.
Rachel and Kurt had no idea who was even going to be there to see their auditions. What are the chances they knew exactly what that judge had seen before OR that they knew she wouldn't be impressed by seeing the same thing a lot? There are a lot of common audition pieces that people do. Having been in theater before, I've seen people do common pieces and knock the ball out of the park. There's no reason that doing a common performance piece has to be a bad thing. The point of his story in this episode was not that singing a song everybody else sings is bad. The point was that singing that song didn't highlight how Kurt was different, and what was going to set Kurt aside was being himself.

And considering how in the dark Rachel and Kurt have been about college in general for the entire season, I think saying that they knew everything there was to know about what would be important in this audition was giving them both WAY too much credit.

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Also, as I've mentioned before, there are other music schools out there. Rejection is part of showbiz...something Schue, and apparently no one else in her life ever taught her. Just because she blew one audition out of a career's worth doesn't mean her dreams are over. Of course, her first failure is going to sting like a b***h, but she could have applied to other dramatic arts schools. Instead, she put all her eggs in one basket.

So did Kurt. We saw him breaking down when he lost the Presidential campaign (and thus his one remaining chance to make himself stand out on his application), because he had put all his eggs in one basket. Even for someone who has faced rejection a lot, it's hard to take.

I just don't understand hating on Rachel for this when Kurt was in the same position. The only difference is that Kurt made it and Rachel didn't. They both took a gamble, and whether they made it or not doesn't change that.


(Dropping the soap argument now because I don't really care that much. Not all dramas are soaps, and a crucial element of the show required in order to define it as a soap is an ongoing narrative that spans every episode. Seeing as Glee's episodes are generally pretty self contained, with a few specific stories popping up in several episodes throughout the season, I don't think it qualifies, but that really has nothing to do with any of the meat of my argument, so I don't really care whether or not you agree that it should or should qualify. I was just being nit-picky, and I don't care enough to continue doing that.)

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garra_eyes

I love Lea Michele, but I've never been a Rachel or a Finchel fan. In all honesty, it's really a toxic relationship. My point is that being in love with someone often entails a willingness to make sacrifices to be with that person. Rachel's love for Finn, though valid in some aspects, apparently isn't even strong enough to withstand them deciding where to go after high school, let alone the emotional turmoil of a long term relationship. Rachel is in love with the idea of being with Finn, not Finn himself. She wants to be with someone who will support her, tell her how amaing she is, and follow her around like a puppy, no questions asked. The only reason she was attracted to him in the first place is because he could sing as well as she could. There's a big difference between loving someone for who they are, and loving someone for who you want them to be. Finn never tried to change Rachel, but she has tried to change him. She might love certain aspects of him, but she clearly does not love him unconditionally.

Yes, Rachel and Kurt did know a lot about NYADA, and Rachel even told Kurt who would be judging them before the went on stage. They were far from in the dark.

"The only difference is that Kurt made it and Rachel didn't." No, it's not. Because Kurt had never tried to take advantage of anyone to win. If we had no background of the characters, or reactions to their auditions wouldn't have been as emotional, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But each of our prior opinions of these characters and their actions, as well as the actions themselves, have to do with our responses to their outcome. There are some major differences as to how Rachel and Kurt got to where they are in terms of their dreams.

[Seeky]

I had an issue with the Bieste storyline: I don't feel that teachers should be discussing their home lives with students, especially when it's issues at home.

[garra_eyes]

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I love Lea Michele, but I've never been a Rachel or a Finchel fan. In all honesty, it's really a toxic relationship. My point is that being in love with someone often entails a willingness to make sacrifices to be with that person. Rachel's love for Finn, though valid in some aspects, apparently isn't even strong enough to withstand them deciding where to go after high school, let alone the emotional turmoil of a long term relationship. Rachel is in love with the idea of being with Finn, not Finn himself. She wants to be with someone who will support her, tell her how amaing she is, and follow her around like a puppy, no questions asked. The only reason she was attracted to him in the first place is because he could sing as well as she could. There's a big difference between loving someone for who they are, and loving someone for who you want them to be. Finn never tried to change Rachel, but she has tried to change him. She might love certain aspects of him, but she clearly does not love him unconditionally.

Once again, I think you're giving Finn far more credit than he deserves, and coming down too hard on Rachel.

Rachel doesn't want someone to love her and follow her around like a puppy. She wants someone to love who also fits into her life. Finn wants the same thing. Most people on this planet want the same thing. And it's not a bad thing to want. People want to be themselves. They want to follow their own dreams. They want to create a life for themselves that is enjoyable and is something they're passionate about. They also want to have someone they love to share that life with.

In high school, Rachel loved Finn and he fit into her life, and everything was good. Now that they're graduating, Finn suddenly isn't fitting into the life she's going to live and there's conflict. So what does Rachel do? She tells him that she has to be true to herself and follow her own dreams. She wants him to fit into that life because she does care about him, but if he doesn't fit into that life, it's just not going to work out. Once again, that isn't a bad thing. It's just the facts of life.

And what about Finn's part in all this? He was perfectly happy to go along with whatever Rachel's plans were when he had no plans of his own. But then, Puck gives him an idea, and suddenly all the support he has shown for Rachel's dreams is withdrawn because he wants to do something different. Rachel has not sacrificed everything in this relationship, but neither has Finn, so why is everyone laying that responsibility only at Rachel's feet?

It just irks me that, when Rachel refuses to give up her dreams so that Finn can follow his, she's a heartless b***h who doesn't know what love means. But, when Finn refuses to give up on a dream he has had for less than a day so that Rachel can follow her dreams, it's a sign of Rachel walking all over him and not letting him do what he wants. Bullshit.

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Yes, Rachel and Kurt did know a lot about NYADA, and Rachel even told Kurt who would be judging them before the went on stage. They were far from in the dark.

And Rachel found out two seconds before Kurt went on stage.
Just... the idea that Rachel had this big scheme all planned out, in which she knew exactly who was going to be judging them and somehow engineered for Kurt to sing this song because everybody sang it and she knew he wouldn't succeed if he sang it as well because their judge wouldn't appreciate hearing that song... it's far too much of a conspiracy theory with far too little support.

Kurt says in the episode that he has been practicing Music of the Night for three months. Did Rachel know who was going to judge them three months ago? Did she pick out his song three months ago? Did she encourage him to sing the song he had been practicing for months instead of one he thought about changing it to a day or two before his audition because she thought that second song would get him in and reduce her own chances for success? Does Rachel think that only one of them can be accepted to NYADA?

Unless you answered yes to all those questions, the theory that Rachel sabotaged Kurt just doesn't make any sense. It doesn't hold up without making a TON of assumptions. And if glee wanted us to think that she had sabotaged Kurt, they wouldn't have left us to our own theories. They would have told us. Can you think of even one time when glee has been at all subtle with a characters' motivations? Especially with Rachel's?

And hell, if we're going to make assumptions, why not make these:

Kurt seemed to know an awful lot about Carmen's past when Rachel told him she was the judge. Do we really think he didn't know that she trained with Hugh Jackman, the man who won a Tony for the performance that Kurt did? Maybe Kurt was trying to play to the judge. And seeing as he was performing first, I bet he knew that if he did a performance like that, there would be no way Rachel could follow him up and no way that she would get into NYADA, thereby securing his place and getting back at Rachel for running against him in the senior class president elections and trying to steel Blaine away in season 2. I mean, Kurt and Rachel have seemed really cordial in season 3 and they have seemed like friends who both really want each other to succeed, but that was probably all an act just so that Rachel would drop her guard and so that he would win and she would loose.

And I didn't have to make any more assumptions in this theory than you did in the Rachel sabotaging Kurt theory.

But I say again: Glee is not a subtle show. If any of this was in the narrative intent, we'd know it. Glee would smack us over the head with it.

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"The only difference is that Kurt made it and Rachel didn't." No, it's not. Because Kurt had never tried to take advantage of anyone to win. If we had no background of the characters, or reactions to their auditions wouldn't have been as emotional, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But each of our prior opinions of these characters and their actions, as well as the actions themselves, have to do with our responses to their outcome. There are some major differences as to how Rachel and Kurt got to where they are in terms of their dreams.

Actually, Kurt has tried to take advantage of people in order to win things in his past. Remember that makeover he gave Rachel in season 1 so that Finn wouldn't like her and Kurt would (in his mind) have a better shot at getting Finn?

But of course, Kurt grew out of that. We've seen that in the show. We've also seen Rachel grow out of stepping over people to get her dreams in this season. (see, for example, her dropping out of the race for class president) This is especially true when it comes to people she feels close to (like Kurt).

What I meant by "the only difference is" was not that this was the only difference between the two characters at all. It's just the only difference in their situations as far as NYADA goes and their preparations for it. And if you're going to hold something against Rachel (putting all her eggs in one basket), you sure as hell better hold it against Kurt as well if he's guilty of it as well. But you weren't. You were simply using it to show why Rachel was a bad person because you had already made that decision and are now interpreting everything she does, bad or good, through that lens. The problem is that it seems to be blinding you to who she really is. At this point, Rachel is not someone who would sabotage her best friend to prevent him for living his dream, especially when she sees so much of herself and her own dreams in him.

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Seeky

I had an issue with the Bieste storyline: I don't feel that teachers should be discussing their home lives with students, especially when it's issues at home.

I agree, but that kind of went out the window with episode one when the show introduced Will the non-teacher. He wanted to move his WEDDING so that his students could be there. Yeah.

No offense, Matthew Morrison. I still love you.

[Seeky]

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Seeky

I had an issue with the Bieste storyline: I don't feel that teachers should be discussing their home lives with students, especially when it's issues at home.

I agree, but that kind of went out the window with episode one when the show introduced Will the non-teacher. He wanted to move his WEDDING so that his students could be there. Yeah.

No offense, Matthew Morrison. I still love you.

Yeah, the teacher-student relationship is devoid of authority, except in the instance of Sue, portrayed as the devilteacher. Which is awful.

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Seeky

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Seeky

I had an issue with the Bieste storyline: I don't feel that teachers should be discussing their home lives with students, especially when it's issues at home.

I agree, but that kind of went out the window with episode one when the show introduced Will the non-teacher. He wanted to move his WEDDING so that his students could be there. Yeah.

No offense, Matthew Morrison. I still love you.

Yeah, the teacher-student relationship is devoid of authority, except in the instance of Sue, portrayed as the devilteacher. Which is awful.

Glee may be vastly unrealistic sometimes, but that's why we love it. smile

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garra_eyes

Again, I beg to differ. The problem with Glee is that the majority of the female characters on the show are written as bitches. In fact, I once wrote a post in this forum thinking there was something wrong with me hating nearly all of the women on this show. But the thing is, they're written to make us hate them. I only really watch the show for Klaine, and a lot of people do, which tells you a lot about the show itself. It's really mysogynistic, actually. It's far easier to hate the women of the show than the men.

Anyway, I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this one, rather than repeat myself. This really all comes down to our differing views and opinions of the characters in question, which I'm gathering are vastly different.

[AlixMasters]

Well, I suppose I'll share my opinion as well.

Rachel Berry and Kurt Hummel are actually my favorite characters on this show. Followed by Santana and Mercedes.

That being said, when I first started watching the show, I hated Rachel. I thought she was the most annoying, obnoxious, self-absorbed character ever written in history who only think about becoming a star. But, my gosh, she could sing. Then along came Finn and suddenly she was thinking about more than just being a star. She had someone she liked and she was just like an elementary student who had their first crush. It made her a bit more relate-able. Also, let's face it, Quinn was kind of a b**** in the beginning and at different moments throughout the show. Rachel thought Finn deserved better and she liked him and so, she did some questionable things about that. But, before I realized it, I was rooting for her to get the guy she liked which was odd since I thought I couldn't stand her. Then in certain episodes, she'd have a breakthrough with different characters. Eventually she became friends with Kurt and Mercedes and a few others. Then I finally realized that I really liked Rachel. She'd grown on me. So, I tried to figure out why I liked her and I eventually realized.

When the show starts off, look at where Rachel is at in her life. She's been working towards Broadway since she was two and she has two dads who have taught her all her life that she is a star, will be a star, and that she's better than everyone else because she is a star. Her dads never taught her how to get along with others, they only taught her that she was talented and amazing. So, when she joins Glee club, it's like watching a toddler begin to interact with people for the first time. Only, these people already know how to interact with others. So, throughout the show, you watch Rachel as she learns that there are other things in life besides me extremely talented. She learns that the world doesn't just revolve around her. She begins to care for these people in her club and she's clumsy about it, but she slowly gets better. Such as when they had their neglected artists week. She told Mercedes that if she wanted the last spot, she should take it from her. And when Mercedes finished her performance, Rachel told her that she couldn't follow it.

She was there for Kurt when his father almost died. She helped bring Quinn back to Glee. Eventually she, Kurt, and Mercedes become a trio and their friendship just made me so happy. Rachel's song that she wrote herself about how much she cared and the fact that she was bad at showing it because she's clumsy at it. When Rachel and Kurt had breakfast at Tiffany's, and when they sang on the Broadway stage together. Rachel quit running for presidency when she realized Kurt was better suited and then tried to foolishly help him win and confessed the truth when he almost got in trouble for it. There are so many moments in the show where Rachel proves that she's learning to care about others and she's such a better person that she was in the beginning. Regarding Finn's dreams, Rachel actually decided eventually, that when Finn found his dream, they could follow it instead of hers. She WAS willing to give up a dream she'd had since she was two to make the guy she was in love with happy. Even though he said from the beginning that he was happy to let her follow her dream.

Also, I don't think Rachel was trying to sabotage Kurt for his performance. She believed that doing a song he knew through and through was better as she believed it was for herself. But, then he took a risk and it paid off. And she was happy for him, but she'd heard what the woman said to Kurt and that made her worried for herself. But, her brain told her to stick with what she knew so she did. Personally, I think she choked because while her brain was telling her one thing, I think her heart was telling her to take a risk. So, she couldn't sing the song. The pressure she was putting on herself had a lot to do with it too. But, throughout the series, she's usually done her best when she's taken a risk. So, I think she realized that she shouldn't have been so worried about giving a safe audition and should have instead given one that was bold.