They have Synthesis, so wheres the Analysis

[AKB0048]

Victor Lykourgos

And no, it wasn't involving the philosopher's stone. Their entire concept of equivalent exchange was a mistake. That's why they failed reviving their mom. Also, to revive Alphonse it required Hoenheim's life and Ed's alchemy. So no, they're not equal. It was never stated that they were equal either... only that it was "payment". Same with Ed not getting his leg back it was "penance".





But in regards to conservation of mass, for example- something like changing water into ice and vice versa. Even ignoring the fact that in reality some water is lost during the conversion (since some of it will evaporate it), you still have to spend energy changing it from one state to another.

And even in the concept of Rentanjutsu, they spent energy conjured from the Earth. Alchemy happened to use the power of souls, hence the Philosopher's stone just being concentrated human souls.

By the way, I've never watched the ending of the FMAB anime, so I have no idea if they skipped this part over or not... but one large point of the ending of FMA is that they rejected the concept of equivalent exchange.

[Istoleyourtaco]

AKB0048

Istoleyourtaco

the whole point of alchemy seems to have escaped you . The reason it is thought that lead can be turned into gold is because they are only one molecule away. so on a molecular level it is
Equivalent. As for the ending of full metal there is exceptions to the rule like philosopher stone

No. On a molecular scale, they are unequal (and no, they are not one molecule away, they're three protons away). That's why energy has to be spent to change one from the other.

Quote:

Before Chemistry was a science, there was Alchemy. One of the supreme quests of alchemy is to transmute lead into gold. Lead (atomic number 82) and gold (atomic number 79) are defined as elements by the number of protons they possess. Changing the element requires changing the atomic (proton) number. The number of protons cannot be altered by any chemical means. However, physics may be used to add or remove protons and thereby change one element into another. Because lead is stable, forcing it to release three protons requires a vast input of energy, such that the cost of transmuting it greatly surpasses the value of the resulting gold.

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/generalchemistry/a/aa050601a.htm

The Philosopher's stone wasn't the only exception. There was also the type of alchemy that Mei used and the type of alchemy Scar used. There were also several things inherently unequal- for example, people who saw the door of truth being able to transmute without circles, etc. And, at the end of FMAB, Ed and Al both mention how they are actually changing the theory of equivalent exchange.

first off your correct it is 3 off and ofcoarse you would need to expend energy you would need to even if it was just 1 away no one said you didn't need to . They point of turning lead into gold is value yes but that doen't make them not equivalent in a natural way. second gold and lead are still equivalent both sre soft metals with similar structures, Also as you in your post in a molecular level it is not an upgrade as you like to say if anything it is a downgrade.Thrid I never said the philosophers stone is the only exception I said it was one exception. In the FMAB movie there was the milovians version of alchemy to. You also notice how the law of equivalent exchange is called the base of alchemy . You know what you do with a base you build on it and it changes.Take both FMA and FMAB both are very different but yet both are very similar. Both have a same kind base but both went in two different paths.

[Istoleyourtaco]

AKB0048

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you notice in the manga it says they will turn equivalent exchange on it's head . Meaning they wil change it not get rid of it. Also the reason they couldn't bring back their mother is because under equivant exchange they had nothing to trade for there mothers soul because what is the price/cost/ making of a soul no one knows so there is nothing equivalent . As for Al you said it your self Hoenhiem gave his life [ a life for a life, a soul for a soul, a body for a body] Ed's alchemy was the price he payed for doing a forbidden human transmutation [ It's forbidden for a reason]

[AKB0048]

Istoleyourtaco

AKB0048

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you notice in the manga it says they will turn equivalent exchange on it's head . Meaning they wil change it not get rid of it. Also the reason they couldn't bring back their mother is because under equivant exchange they had nothing to trade for there mothers soul because what is the price/cost/ making of a soul no one knows so there is nothing equivalent . As for Al you said it your self Hoenhiem gave his life [ a life for a life, a soul for a soul, a body for a body] Ed's alchemy was the price he payed for doing a forbidden human transmutation [ It's forbidden for a reason]

No. If you read the manga, the body they made wasn't even their mother. It was just a random thing. Same with Izumi's baby.

[AKB0048]

Istoleyourtaco

first off your correct it is 3 off and ofcoarse you would need to expend energy you would need to even if it was just 1 away no one said you didn't need to . They point of turning lead into gold is value yes but that doen't make them not equivalent in a natural way. second gold and lead are still equivalent both sre soft metals with similar structures, Also as you in your post in a molecular level it is not an upgrade as you like to say if anything it is a downgrade.Thrid I never said the philosophers stone is the only exception I said it was one exception. In the FMAB movie there was the milovians version of alchemy to. You also notice how the law of equivalent exchange is called the base of alchemy . You know what you do with a base you build on it and it changes.Take both FMA and FMAB both are very different but yet both are very similar. Both have a same kind base but both went in two different paths.

Turning it on it's head also means they're changing the base of the theory, which you can see from Alphonse's explanation of it. And no, they're not equivalent in a natural way. Both of them are soft metals, but they both have different uses and different properties. Removing or adding protons isn't really an upgrade or a downgrade, just a change. However, that inherently makes the two unequal because they are unequal weights, so on a molecular level you need to remove something.

But, yeah. Alchemy itself needed the power of souls to operate. That's why Armstries was a military state that was constantly at war. They needed the power of a lot of dead people to be able to turn the country into a philosopher's stone (which is what Father and the homonculus were up to). Xing used a different kind of alchemy, but that required them to need tools to draw energy from the ground (Mei's kunai with talisman).

However, the point is, there's a cost involved in both reality and fantasy, and the input doesn't always equal the output. Even look at human transmutation- the losing of limbs, your organs, whatever is penance... not equivalent exchange. What they got out of it was barely even human and not even the human they were trying to make.

[Ginger Spice Isle]

Wow!! What an idea!!!

[Istoleyourtaco]

AKB0048

Istoleyourtaco

first off your correct it is 3 off and ofcoarse you would need to expend energy you would need to even if it was just 1 away no one said you didn't need to . They point of turning lead into gold is value yes but that doen't make them not equivalent in a natural way. second gold and lead are still equivalent both sre soft metals with similar structures, Also as you in your post in a molecular level it is not an upgrade as you like to say if anything it is a downgrade.Thrid I never said the philosophers stone is the only exception I said it was one exception. In the FMAB movie there was the milovians version of alchemy to. You also notice how the law of equivalent exchange is called the base of alchemy . You know what you do with a base you build on it and it changes.Take both FMA and FMAB both are very different but yet both are very similar. Both have a same kind base but both went in two different paths.

Turning it on it's head also means they're changing the base of the theory, which you can see from Alphonse's explanation of it. And no, they're not equivalent in a natural way. Both of them are soft metals, but they both have different uses and different properties. Removing or adding protons isn't really an upgrade or a downgrade, just a change. However, that inherently makes the two unequal because they are unequal weights, so on a molecular level you need to remove something.

But, yeah. Alchemy itself needed the power of souls to operate. That's why Armstries was a military state that was constantly at war. They needed the power of a lot of dead people to be able to turn the country into a philosopher's stone (which is what Father and the homonculus were up to). Xing used a different kind of alchemy, but that required them to need tools to draw energy from the ground (Mei's kunai with talisman).

However, the point is, there's a cost involved in both reality and fantasy, and the input doesn't always equal the output. Even look at human transmutation- the losing of limbs, your organs, whatever is penance... not equivalent exchange. What they got out of it was barely even human and not even the human they were trying to make.

yes changing it not getting rid of .

There again I said there was other exceptions to the rule I just used that one .

as for human transmutation you keep thinking that losing limbs/body/or the power of alchemy is a cost of the transmutation it isn't. It is the punishment for using forbidden alchemy.


radio parts + transmutation circle = radio = no punishment biggrin

human parts +transmutaion circle = homunculus = punishment twisted crying crying

[Istoleyourtaco]

AKB0048

Istoleyourtaco

AKB0048

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you notice in the manga it says they will turn equivalent exchange on it's head . Meaning they wil change it not get rid of it. Also the reason they couldn't bring back their mother is because under equivant exchange they had nothing to trade for there mothers soul because what is the price/cost/ making of a soul no one knows so there is nothing equivalent . As for Al you said it your self Hoenhiem gave his life [ a life for a life, a soul for a soul, a body for a body] Ed's alchemy was the price he payed for doing a forbidden human transmutation [ It's forbidden for a reason]

No. If you read the manga, the body they made wasn't even their mother. It was just a random thing. Same with Izumi's baby.

it wasn't there mother because it didn't have her soul. A soulless body is a homunculus.

[AKB0048]

Istoleyourtaco

it wasn't there mother because it didn't have her soul. A soulless body is a homunculus.

You clearly haven't read the manga. What they made not their mom. Ed had a weird suspicion and dug up their "mother's" grave, and the body was a completely different person. The hair was even the wrong color and none of the bones matched.

Also, they're changing the very basis of equivalent exchange. That's the same as getting rid of it.

So why are you trying to use a series for a foundation when you're not even really informed on what was in the series? If you read the manga, you can see that "Equivalent Exchange" was rejected.

[Istoleyourtaco]

AKB0048

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I have read the manga and it is because they used the elements used in the human body [copper,zinc, calcium.ect] and not her body. also they had no soul for it either.


The trace elements of there moms body isn't equal to any other body that is why every one is different You would need her body because only her body is equal to her body.

[AKB0048]

Istoleyourtaco

AKB0048

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I have read the manga and it is because they used the elements used in the human body [copper,zinc, calcium.ect] and not her body. also they had no soul for it either.

No. I just spoilered the two pages showing clear proof. They basically made a blob, not their mom. A body without a soul is not a homonculus, it's just a blob. They made that crap up in the first anime which is why it's extremely clear that you have not read the manga.

Homonculus are just creatures made by Father who have a philosopher's stone as the basis for their existence. Philosopher's stones themselves are made of concentrated souls. Hence, why to put Greed into Ling, all Father had to do was melt down Greed's philosopher's stone and inject it into Ling. Both Ling and Bradley were originally human.

[Istoleyourtaco]

AKB0048

Istoleyourtaco

AKB0048

.

I have read the manga and it is because they used the elements used in the human body [copper,zinc, calcium.ect] and not her body. also they had no soul for it either.

No. I just spoilered the two pages showing clear proof. They basically made a blob, not their mom. A body without a soul is not a homonculus, it's just a blob. They made that crap up in the first anime which is why it's extremely clear that you have not read the manga.

Homonculus are just creatures made by Father who have a philosopher's stone as the basis for their existence. Philosopher's stones themselves are made of concentrated souls. Hence, why to put Greed into Ling, all Father had to do was melt down Greed's philosopher's stone and inject it into Ling. Both Ling and Bradley were originally human.

In the first series the transmuted remains become sloth.
The first series is a different telling of the story from the manga ka. Also it is manga and anime so it is all made up. Also alchemy itself is just a theory since no one has successfully made anything from it. A homunculus is created when an alchemist attempts a human transmutation.

here

[AKB0048]

Istoleyourtaco

In the first series the transmuted remains become sloth.
The first series is a different telling of the story from the manga ka. Also it is manga and anime so it is all made up. Also alchemy itself is just a theory since no one has successfully made anything from it. A homunculus is created when an alchemist attempts a human transmutation.

here

No. First series stopped being written by the mangaka after around episode 20 (pretty much anything after Hughes dies is completely made up). It's officially not cannon which is why a reboot was made. You can even look up the writers of the episode, and the mangaka had pretty much no idea that the series was going to end the way it is. Hence the key term of "BONES writing" where when Bones does a manga adaptation and run out of material, they make up wild and often crazy things. See- Soul Eater, Ouran High School Host Club, etc. Bones is extremely notorious for bad writing and FMA season 1 is the prime example for it.

I'm sorry you are extremely misinformed, but you are wrong. It would probably help your case if you had not clearly lied about reading the manga when you only watched the first series.

[MaeFire]

Diamond Cache

Victor Lykourgos

I'm not asking for a miracle, I'm demanding some decent #$%&ing Science GAIA!!!!!

I just had to chime it, but science is the complete opposite of alchemy. There's no science involved in the theory of alchemy.

...I hope you aren't referring to Full Metal Alchemist. Alchemy is considered a science, just not in the modern day sense of the word.