"WoW is not a real success" - cites Gaia CEO Craig Sherman.

[Tao Kai Tze]

*cough*
The guys at WoW Insider are not happy bunnies...
Eeep...

Somebody made a very good point there- if Warcraft was free the quality would degrade into something absolutely awful. The fees that people pay monthly help keep the game up and running, help provide new content for players and keeps n00bs out.

1) Give WoW away for free
2) Overload servers with millions of players and no money for upgrades
3) ???
4) Profit!

[Corey -Stan-]

"PK Thunder!"
"PK Fire!"
"PK Freeze!"

----------------------------------

Actually Ragnarok is bigger. It has an anime based off it for crying out loud. >>

But, I still think WoW is pretty successful, being the second biggest MMO out there.

Gaia's MMO [will be]<<<<< WoW

----------------------------------

"PK Starstorm!"

[verb0ten]

I bet that guy has no earthly idea what he's talking about, or what he has unleashed.
XD~

[Ava R.]

For the people who won't read the entire thread (emphasis mine):

fin

Bob, thanks for PMing me. I hadn't seen this thread before. And you guys should totally feel free to PM me and write about me and gaia. (but keep in mind I can only respond to a fraction of the pms i get sad

Let me respond to three things:

1) Specific WOW quote.

This is not what I said (as far as I remember) or meant.

What I meant was that free to play mmos and advanced casual mmo's have the potential to expand the market of mmos to a much wider audience than current MMOs. WOW is an extraordinarily well-made game and it cost a ton of money to make. And it is really an amazing experience. And it's bigger than every other paid MMO on the planet today. And, even so, despite all that, there are less than 10mm people playing it.

Why? Mostly because of upfront barriers: must purchase in-retail or get a huge download; must pay a monthly subscription fee. This new category - variously called free-to-play mmos, browser-based or lite-download mmos, advanced-casual mmos, or medium-core mmos - removes many of those barriers. My belief is that in the next 3-7 years, this new category (some of the most notable so far are kartrider in korea and maplestory world-wide) will start to proliferate and grow the market to much more users.

That's what I meant. For the record: I think WOW is an amazing success. Of course! I actually am so impressed with what they built that the first month I joined gaia I got someone i know to introduce me to one of the lead producers on wow and Lanzer and I went to LA and met him to get advice for gaia and just hear his thoughts on why they were so successful. (also, for the record, we didn't go meet him because we're trying to make gaia into wow! We actually meet with a lot of people in gaming companies and cool-websites just to get advice and their perspectives).

2) Gaia's age-target.
When you hear me quoted somewhere as saying 'gaia is for teens' what I'm trying to get across is that it is Not for kids or tweens. I'm trying to make the point that gaia is for older people. Usually i say that gaia's core user base is 13-24 and say that there are at least 1/2 a million gaians who are older than that. Again, my point is that gaia is for older people than you (the audience i'm speaking to) think. This is the best way to get it across in a few seconds or less.

3) More General about my public statements.
The places I speak about gaia and get quoted are almost always at events with bankers and industry analysts and journalists. These are events where almost no one knows what gaia or virtual worlds or forum communities or even MMOs are. Often times i get questions like: 'is gaia like clubpenguin?' or 'Gaia is Second Life for kids, right?' or 'are you like myspace?' or 'are you like a free world of warcraft?' Most of these people have read articles about these sites but have never actually used them. Or they've gone to the home page and that's it.

These people are actually really smart and well-meaning, but they don't know much about gaia or this space in general and so I try to explain in ways that they get it. Also, I often am on a panel and get only a few seconds to say something so I've got to figure out a form of short-hand, some super-pithy way of describing gaia so that they get it and remember.

My job is partly to talk to this outside world - to help with fundraising, to help with recruiting, etc. - so that everyone else here at gaia doesn't have to worry about that stuff.

In Sum:
Lots of times the quote you get or the article you read is only half the story. Ask me or others at gaia for clarification if what you hear sounds wierd.

Thanks.

[Sheshira]

Tao Kai Tze

*cough*
The guys at WoW Insider are not happy bunnies...
Eeep...

Somebody made a very good point there- if Warcraft was free the quality would degrade into something absolutely awful. The fees that people pay monthly help keep the game up and running, help provide new content for players and keeps n00bs out.

1) Give WoW away for free
2) Overload servers with millions of players and no money for upgrades
3) ???
4) Profit!

Yes but here's the thing they act all kinds of butthurt for valid refutes to their comments like Dave's and actually marking it as spam because he was not circle jerking is as bad as the "gaiafag" they claim us to be. Seriously bull.

Dave said...

BMW is a big automotive manufacturer with a very small portion of a market. If this is their desire, they succeed. Otherwise, that's considered a failure.

Apple is an unquestioned failure in the home PC market. There's some serious denial going on if you think otherwise. Apple's success has been in personal electronics (ipod) and music (itunes) and that's basically it. They were on the verge of absolute doom until the ipod saved them and brought them back to a position of relevance. How soon people forget about a short 10 years ago when OS9 was horrible and Apple was a very tiny sliver of the PC market and they were about to go under as a company. Steve Jobs found a different way to sell things to people using a brand name, and the ipod was the mechanism of their success. Otherwise, yes Apple is a horrible failure at making computers. OSX has helped, but it's still nowhere near a success when compared to any other half-decent PC maker.

Now, when considered in relative terms of the size of the market they're attempting to secure and their popularity within their own specific niche there's no doubt that they're successful.

The same sort of relation can be made with WoW and their potential audience and what portion of the US they've been able to capture. Yes, WoW is an easy success story in the very tiny PC game industry where a million copies sold of any particular title is a smashing success.

However, it's pretty tiny compared to the actual number of consumers, the number of consumers in the key demographics and would be a failure when compared to many many many other things out there in absolute terms, not relative terms.

The guy is mostly right. WoW's monthly fee is a hinderance to their progress. Look at how many more players in Asia play the game compared to the US+Europe subscriber base. Why? Because they're paying on a per-hour basis, and we pay a flat rate. They're able to pay based on their playstyle, we have to pay no matter what in a flat amount and that doesn't necessarily work for everyone. We have a different sort of gaming culture here as well, and gaming isn't necessarily very social in a public place as it is in many Asian countries.

I don't think you look at the big picture when you say that the guy has no idea what he's talking about. You look at the very tiny, very basic "lol 10 million" figure and assume that something that massive and beyond your comprehension is an unquestionable sign of succes.

It isn't. Especially when compared to an absolute market, not a relative one. There are plenty of ways to monetize a game such as WoW aside from subscription fees. Puzzle Pirates has a pretty good system of "donation" where you get in-game things in exchange for real money. You can very very slowly work your way up to the same things, or you can pay $5 to buy your way to the ability to get them. I don't think he said the entire game has to be 0 free did he? Stop assuming that's what he meant, and jump to very poor and illogical conclusions!

More subscribers can equal more money. A $50 boxed game + $15 just to start playing is a HUGE barrier for a lot of people, especially the kind of people who just buy a $50 game at a store and that's that.

I think the only thing more absurd than the original article, is the analysis that says he's insane when clearly he makes valid and good points.

[Sheshira]

Here's a little insight. Automatically refuting that a free to play game will never surpass WoW means that eventually one will. It's almost karmic intervention. So instead of WoW users getting butthurt over this one has to then figure for WoW how does it keep going strong? 10 million users is a lot of people however how do you keep yourself relevant and not saturating the market age group they're after? They may have to do what cell phone companies do and market to untapped age groups or neglected age groups that can be teens, females from all ages, etc.

Also just to let you know that once Swatch (the watch company) said that digital wristbands would never be possible and in reality not necessary/wanted in the market... and what happened? Because of their paradigm being so rigid another company did what they thought couldn't be done.

So instead of going and being like "a free game can never achieve that status" be more like "what can WoW do to keep itself relevant and ensure that doesn't occur"

rofl

[Wurmie]

Sheshira

Here's a little insight. Automatically refuting that a free to play game will never surpass WoW means that eventually one will. It's almost karmic intervention. So instead of WoW users getting butthurt over this one has to then figure for WoW how does it keep going strong? 10 million users is a lot of people however how do you keep yourself relevant and not saturating the market age group they're after? They may have to do what cell phone companies do and market to untapped age groups or neglected age groups that can be teens, females from all ages, etc.

Also just to let you know that once Swatch (the watch company) said that digital wristbands would never be possible and in reality not necessary/wanted in the market... and what happened? Because of their paradigm being so rigid another company did what they thought couldn't be done.

So instead of going and being like "a free game can never achieve that status" be more like "what can WoW do to keep itself relevant and ensure that doesn't occur"

rofl

" rofl "? Crack yourself up, didja?

Just because people disagree with him, I don't think that means they are acting, lol, "butthurt".

[Stripped Smile]

I hate WoW anyway, so I don't care. However, to say it isn't a success is...well, unprofessional. It's true in a sense, but to go trash talking another site is...high school-ish.

[Sheshira]

Wurmie

Sheshira

Here's a little insight. Automatically refuting that a free to play game will never surpass WoW means that eventually one will. It's almost karmic intervention. So instead of WoW users getting butthurt over this one has to then figure for WoW how does it keep going strong? 10 million users is a lot of people however how do you keep yourself relevant and not saturating the market age group they're after? They may have to do what cell phone companies do and market to untapped age groups or neglected age groups that can be teens, females from all ages, etc.

Also just to let you know that once Swatch (the watch company) said that digital wristbands would never be possible and in reality not necessary/wanted in the market... and what happened? Because of their paradigm being so rigid another company did what they thought couldn't be done.

So instead of going and being like "a free game can never achieve that status" be more like "what can WoW do to keep itself relevant and ensure that doesn't occur"

rofl

" rofl "? Crack yourself up, didja?

Just because people disagree with him, I don't think that means they are acting, lol, "butthurt".

Yes I did. I was simply pointing something that could happen because people aren't expecting it.
I got the butthurt impression directly from the WoW insider website who got butthurt over someone not necessarily disagreeing with Craig (but not in a Gaiafag OMG GAIA rulez sort of way and those people should always be scoffed).. That's what I call butthurt. It is what it is. It has nothing to do with simple disagreement. 3nodding

[SuggieLuv]

WoW isn't a success? Well then I want that type of failure for myself!

[Chibi Halo]

@ Ava R.: If they haven't been responding to that by now I don't think they ever will. It just seems to me that they want to only read the first post and nothing more. It's a valiant effort even if it is falling on deaf ears.

[Corey -Stan-]

Chibi Halo

@ Ava R.: If they haven't been responding to that by now I don't think they ever will. It just seems to me that they want to only read the first post and nothing more. It's a valiant effort even if it is falling on deaf ears.

”Sometimes I wish I was a lesbian.”

----------------------------------

3nodding True, true.

----------------------------------

”You’re so great. I love you.”

[meztli_16]

yeah that comment was very wrong to say...Wow is a great success only in thefact that it can hold someones attention and is not a passing fad. It is a game that has held its rank for a long while and will probably turn into a classic.

[Shaun Holder]

I still find the basis of measuruing success for a game by how many teens are playing it absurd.

Wow has almost become a household name. Not something most MMO's can boast.

If southpark has done a parody on your game you can consider it a success IMO.


that goes for guitar hero too. xd

[Nekotalim_II]

Shaun Holder

I still find the basis of measuruing success for a game by how many teens are playing it absurd.

Wow has almost become a household name. Not something most MMO's can boast.

If southpark has done a parody on your game you can consider it a success IMO.


that goes for guitar hero too. xd

*twitch*
He said things like Maplestory and so forth would surpass it, for reasons that have nothing to do with Age Groups.
He also said that Gaia on the whole is for Teens and young Adults.
Soundbiting is teh fail!