Something bothers me about Gaia's words.

[Chibi Halo]

Pie

Oh god. Can we not get too deep into Edmund's backstory? It feels like after all these years we're still missing a big part of that story -- I mean, he's a high-fashion gentleman and a genius scientist who also is a combat expert and the only one who knows how to hurt vampires and also is part of a pseudo-superhero squad... and yet as far as we know, he's an ordinary man from Durem, right?

This is why when I mentioned the genetics work, I sort of wrote it off as having too many potential reasons. Part of why he got into science in the first place, part of his vampire-fighting work, part of something we don't even know about him yet, simply because science ignites curiosity...

Regardless, though... if you're given two sets of events with no clear indication on what order they happened in, and one way of combining them makes sense but another doesn't, I'm more inclined to believe the one that makes sense is the truth, until there's evidence to cast doubt on it.

I mean, look at it this way -- Logan's a fisherman. His early friendship with Logan could have made him interested in aquatic sciences, or it could have merely given him a reason to want to clean up Durem's lake. Combine that with him being a scientific genius, and boom, you have a motivation to work at the Reclamation Facility.

I only brought that up to show that we're given no established time line of when events happened and that with obvious omissions due to when features were being worked on there are two obvious sets of continuity going on, the manga continuity and the zOMG continuity. However, and this was in the edit that you missed because we were typing at the same time I also pointed out that the staff could just be pulling a case of changing character backgrounds to fit the story at the time and everything going forward would be considered the established canon background for the character unless otherwise noted. So we might never know just what is the true canon for a lot of characters anymore just what's the intended canon.

Very good example of that is Friends, in the first season it's pretty much established that Rachel and Chandler never met before the day she was supposed to get married. In the second season they changed that up a little to they met once at least a year before she was supposed to get married when Rachel bumped into Monica at a bar where she was playing pool with Chandler. Then, some time later in season five they flashback to a Thanksgiving when Ross and Chandler were in college together (which had been established canon early on) and he met Rachel at the Gellers' house thus erasing season one and season two established background where Rachel and Chandler met only once briefly in a bar a year to a year and a half before the series began.

Gaia's doing the same thing here by re-establishing some entire backgrounds with some major additions to them and likely trying to cement VO's original intention for certain characters while giving them little added bonus traits.

[Pie]

Chibi Halo

Pie

Oh god. Can we not get too deep into Edmund's backstory? It feels like after all these years we're still missing a big part of that story -- I mean, he's a high-fashion gentleman and a genius scientist who also is a combat expert and the only one who knows how to hurt vampires and also is part of a pseudo-superhero squad... and yet as far as we know, he's an ordinary man from Durem, right?

This is why when I mentioned the genetics work, I sort of wrote it off as having too many potential reasons. Part of why he got into science in the first place, part of his vampire-fighting work, part of something we don't even know about him yet, simply because science ignites curiosity...

Regardless, though... if you're given two sets of events with no clear indication on what order they happened in, and one way of combining them makes sense but another doesn't, I'm more inclined to believe the one that makes sense is the truth, until there's evidence to cast doubt on it.

I mean, look at it this way -- Logan's a fisherman. His early friendship with Logan could have made him interested in aquatic sciences, or it could have merely given him a reason to want to clean up Durem's lake. Combine that with him being a scientific genius, and boom, you have a motivation to work at the Reclamation Facility.

I only brought that up to show that we're given no established time line of when events happened and that with obvious omissions due to when features were being worked on there are two obvious sets of continuity going on, the manga continuity and the zOMG continuity. However, and this was in the edit that you missed because we were typing at the same time I also pointed out that the staff could just be pulling a case of changing character backgrounds to fit the story at the time and everything going forward would be considered the established canon background for the character unless otherwise noted. So we might never know just what is the true canon for a lot of characters anymore just what's the intended canon.

Very good example of that is Friends, in the first season it's pretty much established that Rachel and Chandler never met before the day she was supposed to get married. In the second season they changed that up a little to they met once at least a year before she was supposed to get married when Rachel bumped into Monica at a bar where she was playing pool with Chandler. Then, some time later in season five they flashback to a Thanksgiving when Ross and Chandler were in college together (which had been established canon early on) and he met Rachel at the Gellers' house thus erasing season one and season two established background where Rachel and Chandler met only once briefly in a bar a year to a year and a half before the series began.

Gaia's doing the same thing here by re-establishing some entire backgrounds with some major additions to them and likely trying to cement VO's original intention for certain characters while giving them little added bonus traits.

I think what we're agreeing on is that there is -- or at least, was intended to be -- two sets of continuity, but we're disagreeing on how the continuities relate to each other. The way I always saw it, zOMG! started with the same backstory -- parts of which were developed for zOMG!, granted, such as Nicolae's entire existence -- but the timeline was supposed to branch at the start of the game, or maybe even a little after the start since we did get a manga update stating that the Animated were attacking.

That branch didn't really happen, but that's mostly because zOMG!'s branch died off due to development issues with the game. Which is a shame, but I digress.

I will easily concede that I can't prove zOMG!'s version of X is canon. Obviously, anything could be jossed or retconned at a moment's notice. But at the same time, our little side-debate here started from someone saying "zOMG! has a different continuity, therefore X is not a clone" when that's a flawed argument. Up to this point, there has been little to nothing that makes the two continuities incompatible, other than the lack of follow-up for the zOMG! plot.

That's why this discussion sprang up in the first place -- what Gaia's saying could be confirmation that X is either dead or not a clone, but it's such an indirect contradiction of facts that there's any number of alternate explanations for it, up to and including "this is a setup for X's surprise return into the plot".

(Which, even though I want that so badly, more than even the rarest Tickets... I, uh, wouldn't start placing any bets on it yet.)

[Jisen Meizuki]

Pie

Honestly? I know people keep bringing this up, but I don't think it really qualifies as an excuse to point at X and say "Well, his backstory isn't canon".

zOMG! had a manga introduction, zOMG! locations are in Towns 2 now. And even if the plot lines were intended to be different, there's no reason not to keep backstories between the two internally consistent. Especially since zOMG! is no longer under development ( crying ), meaning there's no new developments to keep up with... and also that if we're going to see any continuation of the X plotline, it'll probably have to be in the manga proper.

Well, I don't know about the others, but for myself, I sortta see it as a "parallel canon."

As for the zOMG manga introduction, it was really an introduction to the new feature. After all, how else can Gaia psyche people up about new feature besides making an announcement thread? I mean, we have Rejected Olympics with Lanzer trying to get the Olympics chairmen to take it but failed. However, we never see Lanzer and the Gaia staff interact with Gaia NPCs.

Besides, if zOMG and Gaia are related, we would have seen more Animated monsters in the manga. Even more, the continuation of what's going on in Gaia (aka: Have Gaia NPCs figure out what cause the Animated monsters? How the Zurgs feel about those alien worshippers at the top of the mountain? Etc.) for the manga.

Anyway, I think we can both agree on one thing, and that is what you've said to Chibi: that there is little to nothing that makes the two continuities incompatible due to the lack of update.

[Bellecoso]

In general, much of Gaia's plot could be a lot better written if there was more room for things like interaction; rather than relying on background story after background story. But such is the limitations of getting the whole story out and getting it out NOW.

There's a lot of things that seemed forgotten, swept under the rug, or ignored entirely. Such as the whole Masque scenario eons ago; unless all of Gino's badassery left him with the whole Mitosis thing with Johnny later in? Which... I... I was there... I still have no idea what happened.

Gino being the son of a titan, I can accept. That's actually pretty cool, and explains an additional importance of the Gambino family other than fantabulous wealth. But the fact has been pointed out that he has little to no actual ambition to him--unless he has just yet to realize it because he has been coddled for so long?

I could write a whole essay on the errors of the plot, and ways to fix it. But it's better to use that energy towards my own work instead, and still enjoy what little parts I still like to the Gaia Plot, as hole-filled as it is.

For the living love of it all, please, make Nicolae important. Don't have all those "I'm up to something" shots just for the sake of looking cool! DON'T HAVE BUILT IT UP FOR THIS LONG! HE'S WAITED SINCE 2006 FOR s**t TO GO DOWN!

The whole plot and web of the plot itself could be written a lot better if there was room TO write it better. This is not your standard manga, so they don't have the time, energy, and resources to make something perfectly well rounded where everything gets explained NOT through a large and beautifully illustrated background story.

But, it is what it is...

[Penn Almasy]

Whip-Happy Prosecutor

Pie

Penn Almasy

Pie

The next line does sorta imply it, though, since she says a piece of humanity's ambition would be gone forever if Gino dies.

Keyword(s) being "a piece". How much would be gone if Gino died is up in the air as far as we're concerned.

That's true! But if that's the case, I wonder... did we lose any when Johnny died?

Probably. Wasn't that event around the same time that Gaia online started being . . . you know . . .

Whip-Happy Prosecutor

Pie

Penn Almasy

Pie

The next line does sorta imply it, though, since she says a piece of humanity's ambition would be gone forever if Gino dies.

Keyword(s) being "a piece". How much would be gone if Gino died is up in the air as far as we're concerned.

That's true! But if that's the case, I wonder... did we lose any when Johnny died?

Probably. Wasn't that event around the same time that Gaia online started being . . . you know . . .

...that would be very meta as ******** and a weird way to show just HOW important the Gambinos are to humanity (Gai-manity???) as a whole.

Druddigon

I question why Gaia says that he is the only one that can stop him...

Hello?Gaia?Aren't you the SUPREME Goddess?Can't you just banish him once again and problem solved? >__>

Ehh... technically, he IS still banished. Gaia's telling Gino, basically, "don't let Don Kuro ruin this for everyone ever," also implying that if/when Nyx DOES get out, there's jack and s**t Gaia can do because he'd be far more powerful at this point. Remember, when Nyx was banished, he was a child (or the equivalent of one); by now, he's "fully grown" and so his powers must have manifested at this point... whatever those powers ARE.

Also, she's not the "Supreme" Goddess, per se. She rings more of a Demiurge than of someone like YHVH.

Bellecoso

In general, much of Gaia's plot could be a lot better written if there was more room for things like interaction; rather than relying on background story after background story. But such is the limitations of getting the whole story out and getting it out NOW.

There's a lot of things that seemed forgotten, swept under the rug, or ignored entirely. Such as the whole Masque scenario eons ago; unless all of Gino's badassery left him with the whole Mitosis thing with Johnny later in? Which... I... I was there... I still have no idea what happened.

Basically! Apologies for the TES terminology, but during the Masque Arc, Gino was "mantling" Johnny (specifically all his ambition and his cojones) while they were still fused together. During the incident at the cliff, they split off, and that more or less explains why Gino is a wimp again.

[Bellecoso]

Penn Almasy

Basically! Apologies for the TES terminology, but during the Masque Arc, Gino was "mantling" Johnny (specifically all his ambition and his cojones) while they were still fused together. During the incident at the cliff, they split off, and that more or less explains why Gino is a wimp again.

Logically, that would mean that Gino, while being the last of the Titan bloodline through natural means, HAS NO AMBITION LEFT because Johnny took it all when he re-formed or something.

But it's a plot hole big enough to fly Brennivin's Airship Island through and I think the current plot is trying to ignore that???

[Penn Almasy]

Bellecoso

Penn Almasy

Basically! Apologies for the TES terminology, but during the Masque Arc, Gino was "mantling" Johnny (specifically all his ambition and his cojones) while they were still fused together. During the incident at the cliff, they split off, and that more or less explains why Gino is a wimp again.

Logically, that would mean that Gino, while being the last of the Titan bloodline through natural means, HAS NO AMBITION LEFT because Johnny took it all when he re-formed or something.

But it's a plot hole big enough to fly Brennivin's Airship Island through and I think the current plot is trying to ignore that???

...what??

Where did you get that? He STILL has some, magic does not work like that!!

[Pie]

Bellecoso

Penn Almasy

Basically! Apologies for the TES terminology, but during the Masque Arc, Gino was "mantling" Johnny (specifically all his ambition and his cojones) while they were still fused together. During the incident at the cliff, they split off, and that more or less explains why Gino is a wimp again.

Logically, that would mean that Gino, while being the last of the Titan bloodline through natural means, HAS NO AMBITION LEFT because Johnny took it all when he re-formed or something.

But it's a plot hole big enough to fly Brennivin's Airship Island through and I think the current plot is trying to ignore that???

I still think Gino's problem is not a lack of ambition -- he has shown that he's willing to live up to his father's lofty example.

Despite this, he's also shown to have some self-confidence issues, stemming from the fact that he is a wimpy kid and is aware that he's a wimpy kid. One can only hope that Gaia telling him all this will help him recognize his own potential and overcome those issues, so that he might unleash his ambitions on the world.

[Bellecoso]

Penn Almasy

Bellecoso

Penn Almasy

Basically! Apologies for the TES terminology, but during the Masque Arc, Gino was "mantling" Johnny (specifically all his ambition and his cojones) while they were still fused together. During the incident at the cliff, they split off, and that more or less explains why Gino is a wimp again.

Logically, that would mean that Gino, while being the last of the Titan bloodline through natural means, HAS NO AMBITION LEFT because Johnny took it all when he re-formed or something.

But it's a plot hole big enough to fly Brennivin's Airship Island through and I think the current plot is trying to ignore that???

...what??

Where did you get that? He STILL has some, magic does not work like that!!

Augh. I forgot we're going down the route of magic after a very long era of science...

I could counter-argue this a little more in-depth and using examples throughout the ages of the plot, but we'll be here all night.

I will say, even magic has its requirements and limitations.

Even if Gino has a spark left of his ambition, when has it ever had room to grow?

Every time he starts to exhibit some form of ambition, he's being coddled and/or protected immediately afterwards, or feels miserable because said step in the right direction was only achieved because of his father's name. He's becoming complacent because no one has allowed him to grow. No one has pushed him. No one has encouraged him.

Magic does not gain strength just because you gained knowledge of your destiny, or just because it is a part of you. If you cannot let it grow, it's useless. The biggest jump he has had so far was speaking out against Hephaes. But, at that point, I think he was just DONE with everything and what other option was there at the moment? He probably didn't even think it would work. But after, he went back to being scared and meek of what is to come...

So yes. He was stripped of ambition during the split, leaving little to none at all. Either through the weird Titan Genetics, or through magic.

But they will probably go the route of "Now you know your destiny...AWAKEN!!!"

And Gino will become a completely different character.

That's just my interpretation of things as they stand.

[Bellecoso]

Pie

Bellecoso

Penn Almasy

Basically! Apologies for the TES terminology, but during the Masque Arc, Gino was "mantling" Johnny (specifically all his ambition and his cojones) while they were still fused together. During the incident at the cliff, they split off, and that more or less explains why Gino is a wimp again.

Logically, that would mean that Gino, while being the last of the Titan bloodline through natural means, HAS NO AMBITION LEFT because Johnny took it all when he re-formed or something.

But it's a plot hole big enough to fly Brennivin's Airship Island through and I think the current plot is trying to ignore that???

I still think Gino's problem is not a lack of ambition -- he has shown that he's willing to live up to his father's lofty example.

Despite this, he's also shown to have some self-confidence issues, stemming from the fact that he is a wimpy kid and is aware that he's a wimpy kid. One can only hope that Gaia telling him all this will help him recognize his own potential and overcome those issues, so that he might unleash his ambitions on the world.

It's not entirely his fault either he is "a wimpy kid". No one's really helped him to grow and improve, and every time he HAS shown ambition, he's being coddled and protected; preventing him from exercising said ambition.

The long-time of him being more or less a woobie, joke character doesn't help either. He DID become complacent for a fair amount of time as a result of that.

Magic Ambition Genetics or not, if you don't have room to grow, that's it. It's worthless. It's nothing.

Honestly, the only person who helped was Liam. Had he not kicked Gino out, none of this would have happened. Yay for accidentally helping by being done with his complacency.

I just feel this could have been written better. Without the constant withdraw back to being protected and coddled every time he tried to step forward up until ONLY recently. Nothing much I can say about him being pushed around cause that was an entirely different era of the plot before they decided to be serious about it.

[Chibi Halo]

Bellecoso

It's not entirely his fault either he is "a wimpy kid". No one's really helped him to grow and improve, and every time he HAS shown ambition, he's being coddled and protected; preventing him from exercising said ambition.

The long-time of him being more or less a woobie, joke character doesn't help either. He DID become complacent for a fair amount of time as a result of that.

Magic Ambition Genetics or not, if you don't have room to grow, that's it. It's worthless. It's nothing.

Honestly, the only person who helped was Liam. Had he not kicked Gino out, none of this would have happened. Yay for accidentally helping by being done with his complacency.

I just feel this could have been written better. Without the constant withdraw back to being protected and coddled every time he tried to step forward up until ONLY recently. Nothing much I can say about him being pushed around cause that was an entirely different era of the plot before they decided to be serious about it.

I think you hit the nail right on the head there. Look at who Gino chose for a mentor after the Von Helson incident. Liam's not much in the way of someone who can help Gino achieve the greatness Johnny wants for him. Sure he's a smart guy when he wants to be but Liam is way too obsessed with showing off for the ladies to show he can be smart more often. And the moment Gino gets involved in something that embarrasses Liam he feigns like he hasn't seen the guy since Prom to the media.

Then you have Edmund, who can be an awesome mentor but he's so set in his role as the self appointed Gambino family body guard and so determined to carry out his promise to Johnny that he's forgotten Gino's no longer a child. The moment Gino showed any ounce of making a huge leap forward Edmund tells him to stay in his room and practically squashes any advances he's made.

If Gino's not allowed to take chances and make mistakes and learn from them he's never going to grow. The way his father's closest friends treat him Gino will never get past being the person he was when his brothers' half sisters kidnapped him and Liam. Edmund has to stand back and let Gino do this on his own.

[Avaline Fitheach]

True, he is clone of Johnny. But what if divinity can only be inherited by born descendents, and can't be duplicated with cloning? Consider how Johnny basically abandoned him after Gino was born. There probably was always something about X that Johnny was never really satisfied with, and as scrawny and underpowered as he is physically, Gino is far from unintelligent. He's also very curious, and courageous in the face of real adversity, sometimes to a fault.

Another thing worth mentioning is how X isn't really ambitious, at least not on the same level as Johnny or Gino, which may be why he was ultimately passed over after Gino was born. X is perfectly fine with hiding out in the shadows while few people know of his continued existence, to draw up subtle plans towards more altruistic goals, whereas whatever secrets Johnny kept, he was always very much open about his presence and his more mundane goals -- which, if nothing else, were certainly very ambitious, frequently undertaken as vanity projects. Gino, as humble as he is given to being, has also shown ambition. His intense rivalry with Ian over Sasha and his willingness to take over and continue his own father's projects the first time Johnny died being good examples of that ambition.