Market Place 2% Closing Fee

"A 2% closing fee will be deducted from the final amount of this action when the item sells."

Gaia should KEEP the 2% deduction on market-transactions. (In favor)	72.4%	[ 207 ]
Gaia should DIS-BAND the 2% deduction on market-transactions. (Against)	27.6%	[ 79 ]
Total Votes:			[ 286 ]

[Secksy Panda]

TylerHyperFace

Secksy Panda

Maybe they should add a sales tax on the buyers end too. No? pirate

Not sure if serious, or trolling neutral

Just a general comment, not meant either way. lol

The existing 2% doesnt really bother me in the least. I'll still list anything I sell the lowest current price regardless of what i might be losing in a sellers fee.

[TylerHyperFace]

[color=emo]

TylerHyperFace

They pulled the halo from a perma-banned account, I believe. There has only ever, to my knowledge, been one halo giveaway, as well.
You might be thinking of bidblast which constantly pulls items from old, abandoned/closed/banned accounts, and auctions them off, though in a way that's meant to help pull gold out of the market.

I'm fairly sure that never happened, or maybe they had it installed for one day and changed their minds. Logistically it doesn't even make sense. what if I only had 100g but was selling something for 100000. Paying the listing fee is impossible.

I have noticed a decline in users. I've also noticed, over the past year or two, a general decline in the economy.

^And so it doesn't bother you that a possible correlation could exist with the two?

As mentioned in another response/quote, this is where it'd be useful to see back into the past more than just a year ago, and to have much more market-insight provided to the community publicly. gonk

There's definitely a correlation, but I don't think it warrants removing the tax.

I guess I kind of misstated myself there. Over the past couple years 03 items and very high end luxury items have stayed extremely stable. I think that's the best indicator of economy. I mean, ideally they would be inflating slightly, but stable isn't terrible.
The rest of the items are steadily decreasing in price, which is what I was referencing. But there are so many factors that play into that, like the fact that Gaia releases 20-40 a month, which dilutes the market, or something. I dunno if there's a word for that~


I can kind of see what you're saying though. fewer people around with more gold each. The economy kind of looks the same as it did when the 2% was implemented but in actuality it's slightly different. Back when I got ahold of my March 2004 letter (which I still have, unopened today) I thought that yeah, I'd hit a point where it'd become so valuable that I could have such a more open wallet to deal with. But also like you've mentioned, the price has stabled out now, and I'm noticing less and less (if any) change in its value.

I think it's a matter of the newer items being less creative, though: We see that all over the world now too, so I don't particularly point the finger on anyone because of it. As an industrial designer, it's ridiculous how creative you need to be, to come up with a product concept meeting a list of criteria (requirements/features you'd like to include) then present 30 concepts, all different from each other, settle on a few (4-5), then be another unlimited well of creativity in an even more strict/narrow way of thinking than from the first time. I understand their pain entirely, coming up with 2 new items, that have multiple uses (display purposes) every month. It's ridiculous, and no wonder the newer items are reflecting older items; With those reflections though, older original-source items lose their value. Baby Peguin/Seal slippers at 2million? How about we make bunny slippers, or panda slippers, or etc. Of course less are going to want to shell 2mil for animal slippers, when they could have other cuddly companions on their feet for much less.

[TylerHyperFace]

Secksy Panda

TylerHyperFace

Secksy Panda

Maybe they should add a sales tax on the buyers end too. No? pirate

Not sure if serious, or trolling neutral

Just a general comment, not meant either way. lol

The existing 2% doesnt really bother me in the least. I'll still list anything I sell the lowest current price regardless of what i might be losing in a sellers fee.

Yes, but I meant in respect to those who work the markets as a way of income; that'd be twice as bad, because instead of complaining about losing money on selling, you'd also be losing on buying: Some people buy more of an item to artificially raise its price, and to close gaps they might have open.

Ex:
Listings of a particular item:
1 - 50,000
2 - 60,000
3 - 110,000

If I had the money, and if the popularity of the item made it a desirable item, I could buy the 50k and 60k listings, then re-sell them for let's say 90k.

I'd be making a 40,000 profit on the first, and a 30,000 on the second.

However, if I was being taxed for both buying, ontop of the already 2% existing fee, I would've posted this thread alot sooner (infact, I'm sure many more would've beaten me to it)

This is what I, along with many other gaians do as a source of income, and, depending on how much more expensive your items are, 2% is alot of money you're losing..

[chai fae]

TylerHyperFace

tinyko

OP, what you're thinking of was the cost to have a store in the market. Now it's free, but a long time ago you had to pay a hefty amount of gold to be able to sell on the market. I think it was 5k or 2.5k, and back then that was a lot of gold and people did complain.

I find it funny that you are disregarding everyone's answers because they aren't economists or something. You don't have to be an economy major to have an opinion about the market tax, which is what you asked for and what you offered in the OP.

My opinion on the 2% tax is this: I like it. It probably has stopped inflation a bit. Obviously you can still go to the exchange if you don't like it, but I've never found it to be a problem, even with selling big ticket items. Chances are in the exchange you won't get offered close to the market price even with the 2% discount.
It's really a convenience fee, so you can have items sitting there for sell and not have to manage them like you would in the exchange.

I knew about the vendors/trading pass you needed; Infact I was the last of my group of friends to get it, because I was the one buying things left-right and center. It was only after everyone had bought their passes the complaints surfaced about a pre-tax on whatever price you'd list your item at..

I have no intentions to come off harsh, but rather realistic:

People's opinions should be "respected" alot less than they should be accepted.
You've basically given me the definition of a politician; somebody who suggests a solution/provides an answer to something, yet they have no real in-depth knowledge about it. I'm not saying you specifically, but when an idea that's been formulated off of nothing but surface knowledge becomes popular, it's nothing but an inevitable train-wreck waiting to happen.

An example could be when you'd ask somebody from the 40s-50s what they'd thought about space-travel, and when man would be able to participate in exploration outside of our planet.
"Not in a million years!" and then probably have a horrible per-fabricated evaluation of you. That person's opinion was given, and it's nice and all, only what depth of knowledge did they have in rocketry, or space-travel? If you entitle everyone the right to their own opinion, there's a huge restriction you put on advancement/improving.

By the looks of it, and as unfortunate as it is, I think I very well might have to resort to the forums to sell my more pricey-items, rather than using the market-place.. Which is silly because of the time consumption it takes to set-up and initiate a transaction.

I don't remember there ever being a pre-tax like that.

I should be more clear. You are disregarding everyone's posts because they don't have any experience in economy, and that is fine. I do the same thing every time something about programming/game development comes up, but the difference is that I have actual experience in those areas and can give more insightful answers than the majority. But unless you yourself are an economist, shouldn't you hold your own post/opinions to the same scrutiny you do to others'? Otherwise it sounds more like you are just saying "you don't know what you are talking about because you don't agree with me" rather than "you don't have any experience in this area".

I'm not sure where you were going with the space-travel analogy. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, that doesn't make anyone's opinion "right" or factual.

I hate using the exchange forums because I've found the general attitude of those forums to be extremely rude and degrading. I don't know what defines a low-ball offer today, but I feel like all I ever get is those and nobody really haggles anymore. I don't think its worth the time and hassle to sell in the exchange. I sold an item for 2 mil the other day in the market (after trying to sell it in the exchange). If I am remembering correctly/doing the math right, 2% is only 40k. When have you ever gotten an offer for a 2mil item that was only 40k less than the market price?

[[color=emo]]

TylerHyperFace

color=emo

TylerHyperFace

^And so it doesn't bother you that a possible correlation could exist with the two?

As mentioned in another response/quote, this is where it'd be useful to see back into the past more than just a year ago, and to have much more market-insight provided to the community publicly. gonk

There's definitely a correlation, but I don't think it warrants removing the tax.

I guess I kind of misstated myself there. Over the past couple years 03 items and very high end luxury items have stayed extremely stable. I think that's the best indicator of economy. I mean, ideally they would be inflating slightly, but stable isn't terrible.
The rest of the items are steadily decreasing in price, which is what I was referencing. But there are so many factors that play into that, like the fact that Gaia releases 20-40 a month, which dilutes the market, or something. I dunno if there's a word for that~


I can kind of see what you're saying though. fewer people around with more gold each. The economy kind of looks the same as it did when the 2% was implemented but in actuality it's slightly different.

Back when I got ahold of my March 2004 letter (which I still have, unopened today) I thought that yeah, I'd hit a point where it'd become so valuable that I could have such a more open wallet to deal with. But also like you've mentioned, the price has stabled out now, and I'm noticing less and less (if any) change in its value.

I think it's a matter of the newer items being less creative, though: We see that all over the world now too, so I don't particularly point the finger on anyone because of it. As an industrial designer, it's ridiculous how creative you need to be, to come up with a product concept meeting a list of criteria (requirements/features you'd like to include) then present 30 concepts, all different from each other, settle on a few (4-5), then be another unlimited well of creativity in an even more strict/narrow way of thinking than from the first time. I understand their pain entirely, coming up with 2 new items, that have multiple uses (display purposes) every month. It's ridiculous, and no wonder the newer items are reflecting older items; With those reflections though, older original-source items lose their value. Baby Peguin/Seal slippers at 2million? How about we make bunny slippers, or panda slippers, or etc. Of course less are going to want to shell 2mil for animal slippers, when they could have other cuddly companions on their feet for much less.

lol @ my username breaking the quote

Exactly. So the general decline in price isn't necessarily attributed to the declining economy. I'm not really sure what cancelling the tax would do exactly, but I don't think the economy is at all in a position where it needs to be fixed.

basically i guess i'm saying if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Your Blushing Paladin]

Funny thing is that I get more with the 2% tax in MP than I ever could in exchange.

But yeah, General Slowpoke, you kinda miss this big debate by 5 years.


The 2% tax helps combat Inflation or something. I honestly don't care, it's an online game. They can do whatever the hell they want with it.

[Night]

If you've ever played an MMO before, you'd know exactly why there is a fee.

Be thankful for the fact that Gaia doesn't change you BEFORE you put it on sell, only after.

Edit; Also, 2% isn't much at all. Some of the MMO's I've played charged a 6% or even a 10% fee.

[Einrick]

TylerHyperFace

Which transitions into my second point: The fact that somebody can have accounts worth millions, billions (I've seen trillions) of gold, and then suddenly leave/never return to Gaia again, don't you find that does something to the "Gaia-economy"? (If that's how serious we're going to be about this..)

No, for several reasons.

First, this rarely happens. There aren't all that many users carrying around trillions of Gaia gold - actual gold, I mean - and most that do "leave" end up coming back occasionally just to see what is new.

Second, a lot of people leaving (intentionally) tend to give their stuff away. Not all, certainly, but a significant number hand over their items and gold to friends to have fun with. A trillionaire quitting and giving away all their money isn't contributing to gold-withdraw.

And third, take a look at the front page of the marketplace. Notice the total marketplace gold revenue? Yeah, that's hovering between 4 billion and 3 billion per day. If we assume it is just a mislabeled graph and means total gold moved through the marketplace, that's 35 million per day, or 2 billion per month. If we assume that the graph is accurate, that's 100 billion out of the economy monthly. Unless your multi-billionaires (and occasional trillionaire) are departing at a rate of 12 per year - anyone with less than 50 billion is probably too small to count - then the 2% tax takes far more out of the economy than the occasional person leaving.

[TylerHyperFace]

*It's getting late, so excuse any unruly responses/grammatical errors

Derp, I'm actually too tired to respond, rofl xp

[TylerHyperFace]

Cresandra

If you've ever played an MMO before, you'd know exactly why there is a fee.

Be thankful for the fact that Gaia doesn't change you BEFORE you put it on sell, only after.

Edit; Also, 2% isn't much at all. Some of the MMO's I've played charged a 6% or even a 10% fee.

*doesn't charge me?
I'd hate to be changed before I'd sell something burning_eyes

And, comparing Gaia to an MMO's like comparing ZOMG to minesweeper..

[Equinoxious]

Taxes a** up to more if you make more money.

so what

that's how the real world works too.


Edit: I meant to type add not a**

[pixolotl]

No one will ever convince me you told a lie.

Thats what you agree to when you use the MP. The gold doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't have to. It's taken out of circulation, and thats good. If you want to retain that 2% then it may be better to sell in the Exchange.. that is if you find someone willing to buy the item for close to MP price. Just be happy it's only 2%, they could have easily made it more than that.

Moriarty was REAL!

[Arctic Sounds]

TylerHyperFace

Magus

TylerHyperFace

J 4 C K

It's too lenient. It should be a tax per listing, not per sale.

If I recall correctly, back then it was infact per listing, and not sale.
You'd put up an item, and immediately get charged for it.

If this is true, then it was probably in effect for 5 minutes... cause I don't remember this at all.

I'm pretty sure I recall friends complaining about it, and being young teens that we were, didn't want to commit or anything to playing with the market; instead, we derped, rp'd, etc etc

huh?

I've been here since '04 And never do I remember that being the case. So unless this was before then? But somehow I really doubt it.

[Zzyli]

Zzyli - Zzy as in Xylophone, Li as in leaf

The MP tax I'm pretty sure has been stated to be the biggest inflation preventative on Gaia, and even with it, they still had to perform emergency surgery on both ZOMG and Booty Grab, because the amount of gold given out by those two sources was outstripping by a vast amount the amount of gold taken out via gold sinks.

I think of 2% like this
20 gold at 1k
200 gold at 10k
2,000 gold at 100k
20,000 gold at 1 mil

Up to about maybe 800, 900k, the amount of gold that's leaving the system is pretty negligable, but I basically always PM the seller if I want to buy an item over 1 mil. They get the amount they listed the item for less MP tax, and I save 20k or so. Of course, the associated risk with that is that someone else may buy the item before the seller gets back to you.

You can always put up a note in your store for people to PM you about getting MP tax off, but for smaller items, the amount is pretty negligable. You can make 2k in a minute by grabbing from a high trigger tank.

For most items though, it's a minimal amount, and I know that personally as a seller, I don't even really notice that it's gone. The 2% tax is kind of like a listing fee, so buyers can readily see your item, and you don't even have to pay until it sells.

Accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative...

[Jinglybell]

I make 95% of all my gold from the marketplace and the 2% fee dosn't bother me at all. For big items im fine with people asking for trades. If you dont like the 2% then use the exchange forums.

I agree with Cresandra that we're more lucky we dont have to pay a list fee. On final fantasy 11 we had to pay to put things on the auction house, we only had like 10 spaces and I think it was 5%? and if your item was returned because no one bought it you were S.O.L. Big deal you might say eff those guys! Well that also makes things that didnt sell often never get listed :k