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There's a couple more things I miss.

Someone already pointed out the VICTORY FANFARE an PRELUDE. Those two and Prologue should just be in every game some where period.

Good final battle music. The last really great final battle music was Grand Cross imo. XII's final battle music was pretty good, but X's was just okay, XI's sucked and XIII doesn't even sound like a final battle music. Can't speak on behalf of XIV.

Public character concept art. Aside from FFX, they haven't released hardly any standalone concept art of the main characters since FFVIII, and even VIII was only headshots. Nowadays they just release renders for everyone. Renders are nice but I'd like to see the artwork.

And I'll agree with whoever said CTB. I don't want CTB in every game, but the direction they're taking implies it will never be back, and I think that's sad. On that note too, I love ADB and I hope they bring that back outside of MMOs. Even though I don't like that XII had no regular battle theme, I like XIIs method of battling over 4-9 and XIIIs.
Vornwrath
little to no character development.

I have to disagree on this point. There was definitely a good amount of development (with at least part of the cast). Whether you liked the characters or how they developed is another story.
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Vornwrath
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Vornwrath
XIII made me miss the games being good.

Oh look, another XIII hater who treats his opinion as fact.
Oh. I'm sorry. I like it when the games have well developed characters, exploration, no "win" button, dialog that isn't terrible and stories that don't go out of their way to not explain themselves. You have to read the ******** journal in that game just to know what is going on. IF I WANT TO READ A STORY, I WILL READ A ******** BOOK, SQUARE. Mass Effect did the journal right. It filled out a lot of details of the world, but it was not NECESSARY tro fully understand the story of the game. Final Fantasy XIII SUCKS.

I didn't touch the journal once and I understood it. neutral

I really don't mind if you don't like the game - each to his own. I get why people wouldn't like it and respect that.
What I hate is when you elitist fanboys treat your opinion like objective fact. It's not.
It is necessary to fully understand the game. The game never bothers to explain what things like l'cie and fal'cie are. The journal does that for you. It throws all these terms at you that they just made up and does not bother to explain them. The game is excessively stupid. Square did not want to make a game. They wanted to tell a story. That is painfully obvious with the almost non existent gameplay. Run in a straight line. Fight a battle where you are encouraged to use auto battle. Watch a cut scene. Repeat. This is it. that is all the gameplay that FFXIII has. It's ******** sad. What happened to the sense of exploration that the good Final Fantasy games have? What happened to the depth in the battle system? Where did all the strategy go? Even the upgrade paths are ******** linear in FFXIII. Square just wanted to tell a story. It is too bad, then, that the story is poorly written with bad dialog, plot holes, moments that make no sense, gaps in logic and little to no character development. What happened Square? You used to know how to develop characters and write interesting stories. You just have to go back to FFXII to see that.

Nah, it's pretty easy to infer what they are if you pay attention and put the pieces together.

The fact that the linearity makes it bad is your opinion. Everything else you said is purely subjective.

I don't care if you don't like XIII. Hell, I don't even care if you love it. Your opinion is subjective.
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I love it when people say XIII relied on the datalog and had no character development. Because that's complete and utter bull. ;>
Being Telluric
Vornwrath
Being Telluric
I don't really miss anything, since I don't think the older games are anywhere near as good as the newer ones.
Final Fantasy VI is the best man. IV and V are brilliant, as well. IX and Tactics are, also, fantastic.


They're not bad games.

I just think the newer ones are better.

XII and the Dissidia games particularly strike me as the best in the series thus far.
I understand XII. IT is the best 3D one, but Dissidia? That isn't even a real Final Fantasy.
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Vornwrath
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Vornwrath
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Vornwrath
XIII made me miss the games being good.

Oh look, another XIII hater who treats his opinion as fact.
Oh. I'm sorry. I like it when the games have well developed characters, exploration, no "win" button, dialog that isn't terrible and stories that don't go out of their way to not explain themselves. You have to read the ******** journal in that game just to know what is going on. IF I WANT TO READ A STORY, I WILL READ A ******** BOOK, SQUARE. Mass Effect did the journal right. It filled out a lot of details of the world, but it was not NECESSARY tro fully understand the story of the game. Final Fantasy XIII SUCKS.

I didn't touch the journal once and I understood it. neutral

I really don't mind if you don't like the game - each to his own. I get why people wouldn't like it and respect that.
What I hate is when you elitist fanboys treat your opinion like objective fact. It's not.
It is necessary to fully understand the game. The game never bothers to explain what things like l'cie and fal'cie are. The journal does that for you. It throws all these terms at you that they just made up and does not bother to explain them. The game is excessively stupid. Square did not want to make a game. They wanted to tell a story. That is painfully obvious with the almost non existent gameplay. Run in a straight line. Fight a battle where you are encouraged to use auto battle. Watch a cut scene. Repeat. This is it. that is all the gameplay that FFXIII has. It's ******** sad. What happened to the sense of exploration that the good Final Fantasy games have? What happened to the depth in the battle system? Where did all the strategy go? Even the upgrade paths are ******** linear in FFXIII. Square just wanted to tell a story. It is too bad, then, that the story is poorly written with bad dialog, plot holes, moments that make no sense, gaps in logic and little to no character development. What happened Square? You used to know how to develop characters and write interesting stories. You just have to go back to FFXII to see that.

Nah, it's pretty easy to infer what they are if you pay attention and put the pieces together.

The fact that the linearity makes it bad is your opinion. Everything else you said is purely subjective.

I don't care if you don't like XIII. Hell, I don't even care if you love it. Your opinion is subjective.
YEah., By ******** reading . IT should bother to explain its s**t. IT doesn't. That is STUPID. That is BAD story telling..

No. RPGs have always been about exploration. That's not an opinion. FFXIII betrays every single thing that was good about the good Final FAntasy games. That is not an opinion. If you do not know this, you do not know the difference between fact and opinion.
MooMooJuice
Vornwrath
little to no character development.

I have to disagree on this point. There was definitely a good amount of development (with at least part of the cast). Whether you liked the characters or how they developed is another story.
Snow never grows as a character beyond "complete retard who is unlikable." Vanille is nerve grating. Lightning is forgettable. The only memorable thing she does is punch Snow for being a retard. Hope never gets beyond whiney emo ******** or however you spell it is as boring as Lightning. There is no character development.
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I love it when people say XIII relied on the datalog and had no character development. Because that's complete and utter bull. ;>
Yeah I never got that either. I [initially] hated XIII but I still understood the story. Aside from the ending of course. s**t was dumb. But fal'Cie and l'Cie were pretty easy concepts to understand.
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I'm pretty sure Vanille has a quick line in the first chapter pretty much summing up what it means to be l'Cie too. Can't get any simpler than that.
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Vornwrath
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Oh. I'm sorry. I like it when the games have well developed characters, exploration, no "win" button, dialog that isn't terrible and stories that don't go out of their way to not explain themselves. You have to read the ******** journal in that game just to know what is going on. IF I WANT TO READ A STORY, I WILL READ A ******** BOOK, SQUARE. Mass Effect did the journal right. It filled out a lot of details of the world, but it was not NECESSARY tro fully understand the story of the game. Final Fantasy XIII SUCKS.

I didn't touch the journal once and I understood it. neutral

I really don't mind if you don't like the game - each to his own. I get why people wouldn't like it and respect that.
What I hate is when you elitist fanboys treat your opinion like objective fact. It's not.
It is necessary to fully understand the game. The game never bothers to explain what things like l'cie and fal'cie are. The journal does that for you. It throws all these terms at you that they just made up and does not bother to explain them. The game is excessively stupid. Square did not want to make a game. They wanted to tell a story. That is painfully obvious with the almost non existent gameplay. Run in a straight line. Fight a battle where you are encouraged to use auto battle. Watch a cut scene. Repeat. This is it. that is all the gameplay that FFXIII has. It's ******** sad. What happened to the sense of exploration that the good Final Fantasy games have? What happened to the depth in the battle system? Where did all the strategy go? Even the upgrade paths are ******** linear in FFXIII. Square just wanted to tell a story. It is too bad, then, that the story is poorly written with bad dialog, plot holes, moments that make no sense, gaps in logic and little to no character development. What happened Square? You used to know how to develop characters and write interesting stories. You just have to go back to FFXII to see that.

Nah, it's pretty easy to infer what they are if you pay attention and put the pieces together.

The fact that the linearity makes it bad is your opinion. Everything else you said is purely subjective.

I don't care if you don't like XIII. Hell, I don't even care if you love it. Your opinion is subjective.
YEah., By ******** reading . IT should bother to explain its s**t. IT doesn't. That is STUPID. That is BAD story telling..

No. RPGs have always been about exploration. That's not an opinion. FFXIII betrays every single thing that was good about the good Final FAntasy games. That is not an opinion. If you do not know this, you do not know the difference between fact and opinion.

Uh, no.
It was ******** easy to understand. neutral
I don't like having the story spoonfed to me. You do.
Therefore, it's your opinion that it should have been spoonfed.

Oh, can you direct me to the Holy Bible of RPGs where it says this, then?
RPG simply means "Role-Playing Game." Anything beyond the part where you play a role is optional.
I don't give a s**t about exploration. I care about the story and characters. You can say that they're s**t, too, but that's your opinion, and, by extension, not fact.
My opinion isn't fact, either. Nobody's is.

Learn the difference between objective and subjective concepts, bro.
Vornwrath
Being Telluric
Vornwrath
Being Telluric
I don't really miss anything, since I don't think the older games are anywhere near as good as the newer ones.
Final Fantasy VI is the best man. IV and V are brilliant, as well. IX and Tactics are, also, fantastic.


They're not bad games.

I just think the newer ones are better.

XII and the Dissidia games particularly strike me as the best in the series thus far.
I understand XII. IT is the best 3D one, but Dissidia? That isn't even a real Final Fantasy.


It's not a traditional Final Fantasy game, no, but it's certainly has the most replay value, the most unlockables, most references to the older games, and generally most everything in the series. Then the multiplayer element via ad-hoc party adds a whole new dimension to the game.

I have logged more hours into the two Dissidia games than every single main series Final Fantasy combined.

"Real" FF or not, the Dissidia games are hands-down the best and most fun to play games in the entire series for me.
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Vornwrath
MooMooJuice
Vornwrath
little to no character development.

I have to disagree on this point. There was definitely a good amount of development (with at least part of the cast). Whether you liked the characters or how they developed is another story.
Snow never grows as a character beyond "complete retard who is unlikable." Vanille is nerve grating. Lightning is forgettable. The only memorable thing she does is punch Snow for being a retard. Hope never gets beyond whiney emo ******** or however you spell it is as boring as Lightning. There is no character development.


There's character development but it isn't drastic. It's underscored by the melodrama that is the typical Final Fantasy story.

Example 1: Lightning

Lightning begins the game as a reckless, selfish, cold person. She solves all of her problems with violence and is generally sarcastic towards or dismissive of the others. By the time she and Hope reach the Gapra Whitewood, however, she's softened significantly, especially after Hope declares he wants to kill Snow. Now she sees how all her anger and aggression affected Hope and she strives to change that by gradually changing her core approach to conflict. [Which is, in case you forgot, punching things.] She slaps Fang in Palumpolum but admits it doesn't get her any answers.

Is she as deep as a Liara or a Garrus? No. Does she change? Yes. Enough to convince Fang to stand with the team and continue to fight, where Chapter One Lightning would have dismissed Fang as weak.

Example 2: Hope

In chapter 1, Hope is whiny, unsure of himself, and obviously being close to his mother, devastated by her death. As teenagers [and less mature adults] tend to do, he projects these feelings loudly and blames others for his predicament [true in the case of being rounded up for the Purge, not true in Snow's case since it wasn't his fault Nora volunteered or that she died.] But the minute he resolves to follow Lightning, you can see his motivations begin to shift. He latches on to her because she's a model of what he wants to be: strong, decisive, brave. Even though Lightning outright tells him that Operation Nora [his plan to get revenge on Snow] is over, he continues to use that as motivation to get stronger. But when he confronts Snow and nearly gets them both killed, he finally realizes that killing Snow won't bring his mother back. He and Snow fall into a sort of easier partnership, fueled mostly in part by Snow's stubborn need to protect Hope at all costs. [He keeps his word]

Again, the changes aren't deep or profound, but they are there.

There are other examples, but this is already tl;dr. So point: There is character development though it isn't on the level of classic literature. Most games aren't on that level anyhow so it's hard to single out just FFXIII for this oversight.
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I also find it funny when people put down XIII for not having the exploration the past Final Fantasies had, when I have yet to be impressed with the exploration in any Final Fantasy with exception of XII.

Now, XII had exploration. XII had a ginormous world with depth that most people probably haven't seen all of. And it didn't have a crappy "World Map" (characters walking around a barren field with cities tinier than them) to go with it! I still cannot understand why people want the classic world map style to come back. It's old, outdated, and serves no purpose when we can have actual environments to run around in that don't make our characters look like giants. It worked well back then, but it just won't look acceptable on current gen hardware. neutral

But alas, I've gone off topic...
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I love XII for that. Didn't mind the MMO feel because there was always some place in the distance that you hadn't seen, that you had to get to. Also, it's the only FF I've seen where you can effectively solo. [Not counting Tactics]

Anyway, on topic: I was thinking about what I really missed while writing that first post about character dev. and like most players I can't really pinpoint anything in particular. I did miss the items [Echo Screens, mana restoration items, the higher curative potions etc] in XIII and XIII-2. The closest you get to Silence in XIII is "Dazed" [which stops your character from performing actions] and there is no MP. Even the potions become useless after a certain point.

It's a small thing though.
Vornwrath
MooMooJuice
Vornwrath
little to no character development.

I have to disagree on this point. There was definitely a good amount of development (with at least part of the cast). Whether you liked the characters or how they developed is another story.
Snow never grows as a character beyond "complete retard who is unlikable." Vanille is nerve grating. Lightning is forgettable. The only memorable thing she does is punch Snow for being a retard. Hope never gets beyond whiney emo ******** or however you spell it is as boring as Lightning. There is no character development.

You don't seem to understand what character development is, then. Here you've only given me reasons as to why you hate them due to their personalities. Not how they all (or most) do not grow as characters throughout the story. Which is what the definition of character development is.
It has nothing to do with how you feel about them as characters.

Jaiden gave a wonderful example, and saved me the time of having to do it myself. Despite whether or not you like Lightning, for example, that doesn't erase the fact that she changed, she developed, throughout XIII.

I'm not arguing that you are wrong to not like the characters. That's your opinion, and I'm totally cool with it. I'm arguing that your use of the word 'character development' is incorrect.

Lightning, Hope, Vanille, and to a lesser extent, Sazh and Fang all had character development. By definition, it's an undeniable fact. (I'll give you Snow, because I don't feel he changed at all. He had a little moment in Palumpolum before Hope went apeshit, but it was greatly overshadowed by Hope's development, and ultimately changed nothing about him, just the way the audience saw him.)

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