Accessible-Yet-Deep Gameplay for Fighting Games (Discussion)

[ZX GhostRabbit]

I'm not talking about financial profits here. I'm looking for ideas for making a fighter myself. I've pitched a few ideas here and there on GAIA, only to realize, "I don't know ANYTHING about a solid gameplay system for a fighter." I've played a considerable number of fighting game series now (Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Mortal Kombat, Tekken, King of Fighters, Virtua Fighter, crossover series, etc.). I've liked certain gameplay elements and disliked others. I even have my own concepts (on paper, any ways) for a unique gameplay system.

But now I need help and input from others (and I apologize for being way too long-winded). What is it about fighting games that you like that make the game win-win in regards to gameplay? Juggling? Defensive options? Variety of gameplay styles? Normal-to-Super Cancels? Finishing moves? I'm just giving a few questions to get some minds thinking...and to help me figure out how to make a fighting game that can be played for defense-oriented characters without just turtling or giving offense-minded characters a severe disadvantage.

Discuss. Ask questions relevant to the thread. Don't be stupid. Have a nice day. Take care.

[DG L0N-3]

Is your game 2d or 3d?

[ZX GhostRabbit]

You can discuss either style (2D or 3D).

For my project, I'm working on a 3D-based engine (all on paper right now, as I can't afford actual game programming material yet), but not in the traditional sense ala Tekken/Virtua Fighter/Dead or Alive. Sidestepping/circling the opponent is still there, but without revealing my system, I'll just say that I'm working on character movement that emphasizes fluid motion (similar to Soul Calibur's 8-way run, but more literal and with smoother transition when switching direction of movement) and the execution speed of 2D fighters (for example, a backwards dash motion on my gameplay system would work for some characters as a basic fundamental for defensive-minded players, allowing for a bit more time to setup further options, be it an offense or defensive front.) I'll explain further if interest is there regarding this topic.

I just hope what I'm writing is understandable. (I get a strong feeling it's not in the least bit.)

[Sio]

It's hard to narrow down exactly what makes a good fighting game without using vague terms like "depth." But personally, I think that you should promote "reading" your opponent without having to rely heavily on unique game mechanics like parries in 3S. In other words, I should be able to rely on footsies to win.

And personally, I think that you don't need much more than chip damage and throws to have a game that favors both defensive play and offensive play equally. Maybe something like a guard crush system. But things like movement speed and stage sizes also play a big part. Compare SFIV to ST. Movement speed-wise, both games are about the same pacing. The reason why SFIV feels more defensive is because there's a lot more space in SFIV stages. In ST, the stage sizes are sized just so that you're always at risk of getting hit by something. In SFIV, there comes a distance where you are at virtually zero risk from your opponent.

EDIT: If you're talking about 3D, things change a little bit. You put much more emphasis on footsies than zoning because there typically aren't any projectiles in 3D games. Jumping usually isn't a viable option either. Virtua Fighter and Tekken are the best games to take your cues from.

[Lilim Valkyrie]

Substance is important, but you gotta have personality. No ones gonna wanna play a game with drab boring characters or a generic story. Have a memorable boss. Awesome hidden characters and secrets. Make it worth playing on your own. Sure it should play well have have good balance, but a good persona can carry a game as equally as what makes it run.

[Mornailon]

In my opinion, i like games that allow canceling.

[DG L0N-3]

I'd probably have to suggest the following for a worthwhile fighting game


1) Plenty of unlockables (characters, costumes, stages, etc)

2) Some sort of defensive system beyond the basic block.

3) Characters need different fighting styles

4) No one character (bosses excluded) outclasses the others. (This can't actually be helped, due to players, but the effort would be appreciated)

5) Responsive movement controls (sidestepping, backstepping, etc.)

6) If 3d, then preferably no projectiles

7) Fluid movements.

As for actual combat mechanics, I can't offer too much, since that is entirely a preference decided by the game designer.




Your idea so far sounds pretty good, but I have a question.


Is your game themed, or is it more traditional, as in, each character is a representative of stereotypical fighting styles?

[Aether Tokoro the Shrewd]

Degalon3

I'd probably have to suggest the following for a worthwhile fighting game


1) Plenty of unlockables (characters, costumes, stages, etc)

Unlockable characters are the worst thing to happen in fighting games aside from the "Free" mechanic from Dead or Alive and the "Revenge Gauge" system from Street Fighter IV.

...well, I mean, yeah, duh, the worst thing to happen in the history of the fighting game genre is you, but I meant besides that. It's a race for second place at this point.

[DG L0N-3]

Aether Tokoro the Shrewd

Degalon3

I'd probably have to suggest the following for a worthwhile fighting game


1) Plenty of unlockables (characters, costumes, stages, etc)

Unlockable characters are the worst thing to happen in fighting games aside from the "Free" mechanic from Dead or Alive and the "Revenge Gauge" system from Street Fighter IV.

...well, I mean, yeah, duh, the worst thing to happen in the history of the fighting game genre is you, but I meant besides that. It's a race for second place at this point.

Shut up, or stay on topic.

[DG L0N-3]

One other thing I would like to mention, is that if you are making a 3d fighter, is I would like to know if your game is focused around juggles, or basic combos and footwork?

[Aether Tokoro the Shrewd]

Degalon3

Shut up, or stay on topic.

Oooooh, I'm real scared. rolleyes

Is big bad Dead or Alive fanboy gonna throw another one of his little hissy fits and scream about how nobody except him knows what fun is? I'm shaking in my boots, I really am.

In regards to the original topic of this thread before Degalon ruined it, all a person really has to do is go back and look at the fighting games that have proven themselves successful, such as Street Fighter or Tekken, and then look at the fighting games that have proven themselves failures, like Soulcalibur, Dead or Alive, and Mortal Kombat. Look at what makes a good fighting game good and what makes a bad fighting game bad, and you can't really go wrong as long as your judgment is sound. Knowing the thread creator as I do(very little), it probably won't be an issue, and I trust you not to make another Dragonball: Raging Blast.

It's about accessibility, it's about depth, and it's about aesthetic. Balance those three things just right, and you'll have a winner on your hands. That's all you have to do...well, that and playtest the hell out of it.

[Kaizer Rose]

on a non Gameplay basis you need good voice actors and character designs. I dont care how "in depth" the game is. If the main character of the game sounds like flapjack or spongebob the you have a problem.But if his voice was yuri lowenthal or something it might be more appealing to people.Ad try making the main character a girl. never seen that done except in arcana heart( all girls)

[Sio]

Degalon3

Aether Tokoro the Shrewd

Degalon3

I'd probably have to suggest the following for a worthwhile fighting game


1) Plenty of unlockables (characters, costumes, stages, etc)

Unlockable characters are the worst thing to happen in fighting games aside from the "Free" mechanic from Dead or Alive and the "Revenge Gauge" system from Street Fighter IV.

...well, I mean, yeah, duh, the worst thing to happen in the history of the fighting game genre is you, but I meant besides that. It's a race for second place at this point.

Shut up, or stay on topic.

Hidden characters are ******** stupid in fighting games. There's a reason everyone is playable from the start in Super Street Fighter IV. No one wants to have to grind against mindless computers for two hours before they get to actually play the game.

Don't throw a hissy fit when someone shits on stupid ideas.

[DG L0N-3]

Sio

Degalon3

Aether Tokoro the Shrewd

Degalon3

I'd probably have to suggest the following for a worthwhile fighting game


1) Plenty of unlockables (characters, costumes, stages, etc)

Unlockable characters are the worst thing to happen in fighting games aside from the "Free" mechanic from Dead or Alive and the "Revenge Gauge" system from Street Fighter IV.

...well, I mean, yeah, duh, the worst thing to happen in the history of the fighting game genre is you, but I meant besides that. It's a race for second place at this point.

Shut up, or stay on topic.

Hidden characters are ******** stupid in fighting games. There's a reason everyone is playable from the start in Super Street Fighter IV. No one wants to have to grind against mindless computers for two hours before they get to actually play the game.

Don't throw a hissy fit when someone shits on stupid ideas.

Games need to have some sort of unlockables to add to replay value. Otherwise, you are stuck waiting for someone else to play vs against. There needs to be a reason to play the single player mode, as well. Costumes, stages, characters, music, anything at all to unlock.

It doesn't matter what the unlockables are, they help to give the single player replay value. Even if single player has a good story, that's still only good once, maybe twice. Then the game sits on the shelf unless you have a friend over (or play online, depending on the game and your connection).


Let's take some examples.

Street fighter 4 has modes to (gasp) unlock costumes and characters! What a CONCEPT, huh?

Tekken 6 has modes to unlock costumes and items (don't know about characters). Must be a coincidence.

DOA: Unlock characters and costumes and stages.

Virtua Fighter: Unlock costumes (Don't know about characters)

Soul calibur: Unlock characters and costumes

Marvel vs Capcom 2: Unlock characters and costumes.

Raging Blast: Unlock characters, costumes, attacks, music, etc, etc.



Unlockables are standards, and a good thing, unless you have like, ADD. It's something to work for, and something to do other than vs mode. As I said before, it gives the game some replay value.



By the way, the reason why everyone is already unlocked in Super Street Fighter 4 is because everyone already UNLOCKED all the characters in Street Fighter 4. It'd be stupid to have to RE-unlock them in what amounts to an expansion pack.


In an arcade machine, sure, you don't even need anything BUT a vs mode and one costume. Heck, you don't even really need a main menu, just a character select screen. It's just paying a quarter to kill some time, after all.

But on home consoles? You need stuff to unlock, to keep you busy, and get your money's worth, especially if you don't have online.

Unlockable content is pretty standard in fighting games, don't try to tell me it's stupid, when its almost a freaking REQUIREMENT nowadays.