Accessible-Yet-Deep Gameplay for Fighting Games (Discussion)

[DG L0N-3]

Shinobi Brown

Degalon3

As for the "paying full price" thing, there is no way in hell I would pay 60 bucks for a game that won't have anything new after I've played it for a while, plain and simple. That's my reasoning, anyways.

Then stop buying fighting games. You're playing them for the wrong reason. You want to unlock s**t, play an Action, Adventure, or RPG. Fighting games' focus aren't on unlocking s**t, it's on one on one versus gameplay. Whether or not you have friends determines the game's replayability. Not how many unlockables there are.

Both for me.

I love to play vs, and it's cool for a game to continuously have new things to offer.

[ZX GhostRabbit]

My perspective: I'm not a fan of unlocking characters. I do like extras that enhance the single-player experience. But in the end, the core-fighting system has to be well-done for the fight game to be fully enjoyed and respected. So let's get back to GAMEPLAY/FIGHT SYSTEM discussion, shall we? Thank you for your participation.

[Lilim Valkyrie]

I hope you are calling yourself a modern gamer cause from all the crap you've been spewing out of that DBZ watchin, sonic lovin, brawl playin, DOA mashin, mouth of yours is just what a modern day trust fund kid who searches all the gaming boards for his info would act like. You're not fooling anyone Krillin.

Edit: While I do agree that the modern gamer is a bunch of lazy douchebags that compare Halo to something like Fallout 3 and say that Smash is the best fighting game EVER...well...I don't know where I'm going with this but modern gamers are spoiled whine babies who will suckle at the teat of absolute mediocrity and shitastic franchises cause developers know douches like you will buy them. I wish we could go back to the days of hard to find DBZ games.

PS: A balance of technical and easy to learn is what could make a game fun.

[ZX GhostRabbit]

Hmm. I suppose I'll explain where I'm coming from some more.

I've yet to see a 3D fighting game that really stresses a good defensive beyond just blocking/parrying/reversals. I probably sound really ignorant for saying that, but like I said, I've observed the systems in the games I've played the best I can...Dead or Alive with it's simplistic-but-nonetheless-existent "Dial-A-Reversal", Virtua Fighter with Aoi Umenokouji (she has the capacity to reverse attacks from just about any situation she's in with precision timing, something I really like about her character, but also something I could never learn and/or master because of lack of time and dedication to it), and Tekken with simple-but-option-loaded ukemi tactics and standard parries/reversals, along with a few high-risk/high-reward evades exclusive to a handful of characters. I don't know...if it's even feasible for a 3D fighter to have characters that can evade attacks with distancing/keepaway moves that give them time to think over follow-ups and still have the game balanced/fair.

Basically, in my mind, I want to make a game where offense-oriented gamers can continue living the tradition of "fight to the knockout", and where defense-oriented gamers can truly shine in forcing their opponents to earn their blows.

[Lilim Valkyrie]

ZX Virtuous

Hmm. I suppose I'll explain where I'm coming from some more.

I've yet to see a 3D fighting game that really stresses a good defensive beyond just blocking/parrying/reversals. I probably sound really ignorant for saying that, but like I said, I've observed the systems in the games I've played the best I can...Dead or Alive with it's simplistic-but-nonetheless-existent "Dial-A-Reversal", Virtua Fighter with Aoi Umenokouji (she has the capacity to reverse attacks from just about any situation she's in with precision timing, something I really like about her character, but also something I could never learn and/or master because of lack of time and dedication to it), and Tekken with simple-but-option-loaded ukemi tactics and standard parries/reversals, along with a few high-risk/high-reward evades exclusive to a handful of characters. I don't know...if it's even feasible for a 3D fighter to have characters that can evade attacks with distancing/keepaway moves that give them time to think over follow-ups and still have the game balanced/fair.

Basically, in my mind, I want to make a game where offense-oriented gamers can continue living the tradition of "fight to the knockout", and where defense-oriented gamers can truly shine in forcing their opponents to earn their blows.

Hey that's pretty cool. It's hard being a defensive player nowadays. With so much depending on offense it's boiled down to who can get theirs first. We want better defense here.

[ZX GhostRabbit]

Basically, in 3D fighters nowadays, defensive-oriented players have either two options, one if they're not playing Virtua Fighter or Soul Calibur, or zero if the time limit is set to infinite.

1) Ring out. However, this is not easily done, and for good reason too. I love the idea of ring out, as it requires positioning setups (that can either come at a whim's notice or with expertise planning) and a good touch of unexpected unpredictability. True skill with this technique requires using the opponent's momentum against them, and using the environment to one's advantage.

2) Time out. This one's trickier. The term "turtling" comes into play here. In 3D fighters, earning a "Time Out" victory requires anticipation of attack speed and hitlevel location, along with proper timing of blocks, parries, reversals, etc. to where you don't rack up more damage than your opponent. Even for a defensive fighter though, you can't use defensive techniques all day long against some one who is intent on knocking the living daylights out of you. Tradition holds that you've got to maintain more stamina than the opponent to win the match.

The main issue I can see with a game that allows for more defensive-minded strategies is how to keep turtling tactics from becoming too advantageous against an offense-oriented player. I'd also like to see distance-evasives (flips/rolls) have a better success rate and easier execution than I've seen in 3D fighting games. Not so much that it's a constant chase, but enough to where tactics such as "hit-and-run", "keepaway", "zoning", and others are feasible, credible, and respectable to where, as I mentioned before, offense-oriented players have to "earn their blows," and thus gain their victories.

[MeGa DoToX]

Because fighting games was so cool, we can hit the other person/enemy, and it sound's great and...but I cannot explain why playing fighting games is nice, for fighting games is nice to play...But I don't know the reason why

[Vladimir Nosiano]

If you can create a new niche system, then just go for it. Anything different should get peoples attention. A successful new series has to offer something that the long running series' like KoF don't. It doesn't have to be technically sound, or designed for tournament play. If it sounds like it'll be fun, the anticipation will be there.

[DG L0N-3]

Big question.

Are you planning on having projectiles?

[ZX GhostRabbit]

Degalon3

Big question.

Are you planning on having projectiles?

Yes, but they most likely will only be used as stun or pin tactics, and only a small number of characters will have them as a risky-but-rewardable tactic (mid/high reward, that is). The only characters I have equipped with projectiles right now are a ninja (to briefly pin opponents to a wall or ground with kunai/shuriken for chip damage on connect which are easily sidesteppable...) and a gun-user who can only use it during her super (requires precision to use, can instantly knock out the opponent with an accurate aim if it hits high and can cause a "Dizzy" status if it connects low [can't be blocked or parried, must be dodged/evaded], but has massive lag if any shot misses and only has a small amount of time limit to utilize it.)

Again, everything is still in the concept stages, so nothing we discuss here is finalized yet.

[Sio]

I don't know about having projectiles to stun or pin enemies. If I were to take Tekken as a reference, that's an instant round over. I think projectiles, if they stay, should just do good damage and knock down.

[DG L0N-3]

ZX Virtuous

Degalon3

Big question.

Are you planning on having projectiles?

Yes, but they most likely will only be used as stun or pin tactics, and only a small number of characters will have them as a risky-but-rewardable tactic (mid/high reward, that is). The only characters I have equipped with projectiles right now are a ninja (to briefly pin opponents to a wall or ground with kunai/shuriken for chip damage on connect which are easily sidesteppable...) and a gun-user who can only use it during her super (requires precision to use, can instantly knock out the opponent with an accurate aim if it hits high and can cause a "Dizzy" status if it connects low [can't be blocked or parried, must be dodged/evaded], but has massive lag if any shot misses and only has a small amount of time limit to utilize it.)

Again, everything is still in the concept stages, so nothing we discuss here is finalized yet.

Yeah, you'll probably want to revise that.

A projectile that can pin the enemy down, and another that's an instant KO? People would be spamming those like no tomorrow.

Maybe some sort of "Can only be used x times per match?"

[ZX GhostRabbit]

Good, good...people's input is making me think about what I should and shouldn't implement in my fighting system. My most recent plan as far as the cast goes was to have half of the characters use weapons of some sort and half the cast fight hand-to-hand. Sort of a TEKKEN meets SOUL CALIBUR type-deal...unrealistic damage-taking and all (for SC any ways, as getting impaled by a sharp object usually begets death in 1-2 blows). Clearly not a real-to-life fighter, but there will definitely be aspects close to the real deal.

Which leads to another question: Are juggles ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in a 3D fighter? I'd prefer to do something more like Tekken 4 or Virtua Figher 4 Evolution, where juggles don't carry for very long (actually, I don't know that for either game anymore, as I played both very scrub-like---), but can still take place. They would still exist in the gameplay system I'm working with alongside normal combos, don't get me wrong, but there wouldn't be so much emphasis on using them to win matches. Or if they were emphasized, they'd require precise timing---not so much Just Input execution, but a sharp eye towards where a followup move will land...and whether said move will continue a juggle or end it.

Well, keep discussing the art of successful fight game engines, and I'll take notes for my future reference. Do keep posts informative and specific...I prefer not reading vague answers. Thank you again. Have a better life than you had yesterday.

Z=

[DG L0N-3]

ZX Virtuous

Good, good...people's input is making me think about what I should and shouldn't implement in my fighting system. My most recent plan as far as the cast goes was to have half of the characters use weapons of some sort and half the cast fight hand-to-hand. Sort of a TEKKEN meets SOUL CALIBUR type-deal...unrealistic damage-taking and all (for SC any ways, as getting impaled by a sharp object usually begets death in 1-2 blows). Clearly not a real-to-life fighter, but there will definitely be aspects close to the real deal.

Which leads to another question: Are juggles ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in a 3D fighter? I'd prefer to do something more like Tekken 4 or Virtua Figher 4 Evolution, where juggles don't carry for very long (actually, I don't know that for either game anymore, as I played both very scrub-like---), but can still take place. They would still exist in the gameplay system I'm working with alongside normal combos, don't get me wrong, but there wouldn't be so much emphasis on using them to win matches. Or if they were emphasized, they'd require precise timing---not so much Just Input execution, but a sharp eye towards where a followup move will land...and whether said move will continue a juggle or end it.

Well, keep discussing the art of successful fight game engines, and I'll take notes for my future reference. Do keep posts informative and specific...I prefer not reading vague answers. Thank you again. Have a better life than you had yesterday.

Z=

I'd love to see a game like that that doesn't involve juggling.

Personally, I don't like anything that renders another player helpless other than being knocked back (as in dead or alive's exaggerated physics).

Juggles are boring to me, as they reduce a bare knuckle fight down to a round of hackeysack. Small juggles are fun, but they shouldn't be spammable.

If it were up to me, I wouldn't even have people knocked down OR up, just back.

Juggles are meant more for those who aren't suited to engage in actual combat, it gives them a chance to do reasonable damage without having to worry about an opponent that can fight back. All they need to do is land that first launcher, and that's a bunch of free damage, right there.

Again, my own opinion is that there's shouldn't be knockdowns, or knockups, just knockbacks.

[Sio]

Juggles are just the way 3D fighters tend to handle combos as opposed to having stun-based combos like you would in a 2D fighter. It's not absolutely necessary to have combos, but you better have some sort of alternative big damage option or else games will drag on for forever and there won't be a major deterrent for high-risk/high-reward attacks. Combos are just one way to do it.