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Gavyn the Mighty's avatar

Revered Inquisitor

Reasoning for this proposal / My feelings on forfeiting:
Most of us have had a game or two (or more) where our opponent has forfeited. A lot of times it comes at inopportune times and it is almost always intentional; intentional in that the person does not need to forfeit because they have to leave, but because they got a bad draw or are losing. This is all well and good, but I think we can agree that forfeiting can easily seem to ‘waste the time’ of the non-forfeiter as well as not rewarding them for their time. I feel that this system needs to see some specific changes so that forfeiting isn't abused repeatedly when someone is losing, instead of trying to stick it out... or simply because they don’t like losing. Forfeiting is all well and good if you have to leave for something in real life, but forfeiting because you are losing, to me, seems very unsportsmanlike like; something this game needs to stay away from.
Gavyn the Mighty's avatar

Revered Inquisitor

To understand why forfeiting needs to be looked at, we need to look at winning a game in general [both for HoC and other games]. More than meets the eye.

Winning:
In all games where forfeiting is allowed, the other person gets credit for the win; but what is a win? In our game, credit for a win is not just a win or a loss, it also has essence and experience gain associated; It is all tied together. Under the current system, if a forfeit happens, you do not get a reward beyond simply being told you've won... but in the context of our game, this isn't a complete win. While winning is finding 6 victory portals first, and exp and essence are not necessarily what everyone plays for... they are inherently tied to winning, regardless of the reasons you may play this game; I feel that these things should not be stripped from a win, regardless of the manner or reasons you may have for playing this game. They are part of winning when they game is played out, I feel they should be part of winning in a forfeit as well. If a forfeit occurs, there should be rewards for the winner [essence and exp], not just a statement that you've won. Additionally, a preventative penalty for forfeiting should also be in place. How this reward [and penalty] would work will be explained in my plan below.
Gavyn the Mighty's avatar

Revered Inquisitor

In order to understand why forfeiting is and can be a problem under the current system, we need to look at the different types/situations of forfeiting. Different situations are listed in descending order of my most experienced occurrence:

Forfeits:
Losing forfeits – This one is simple. One person is obviously winning and the other is obviously losing. Instead of playing the game out, the loser simply forfeits. This generally occurs in three time frame; early one after a bad draw/bad early tactics, as soon as someone sees the loading battle screen that shows they are vastly out-numbered, in a critical battle and on the losing end of it. These three scenarios all happen to nearly everyone in some game or another. You get in a position where you can’t win or it looks tough to win. There are people who instead of fighting it out in the situation you worked yourself into, just quit… this quitting generally will ‘screw over’ the winner by causing them to not get the essence that they had earned. This type of forfeit is greatly affected by the proposed plan.

Bad-Draw/Mulligan forfeiting – This type of forfeit occurs fairly frequently; if someone gets a bad draw and a bad mulligan [which usually occurs in poor deck builds], instead of simply playing with what the person has, they forfeit. While it may not waste much time, it is a forfeit that I feel should not occur. In any other game if you get a ‘bad draw’, regardless of the game and you forfeit, the winner gets full benefits of the win; this game should be no different

Four-turn/ time out forfeit – Most of us have seen this, we start a PvP and the opponent doesn't move. After 4 turns of not moving or doing anything, they are timed out in a forfeit. This is the only forfeit I feel that is a completely legitimate forfeit insofar that it shouldn't be penalized as will be seen in the proposal.

Needing to leave forfeit – We can all understand this; you are mid-game and something comes up and you have to leave. While it is understandable, it still isn't completely fair to the other player who has put their time into the game. My solution to this type of forfeit may not seem completely ‘fair’, but it isn't a huge penalty that would be enacted, since this forfeit case isn't something that will be happening frequently.

Glitch / Lag timeout forfeit – I wouldn't doubt if this has all happened to us at some point. The game glitches or the game lags and you are forced to forfeit. My solution for this type is simple in that once this game has most of the bugs/glitches out (the time when my proposal would theoretically be able to be implemented) you won’t be having these issues; thus, this type of forfeit would, in theory, rarely occur. – Now, what if someone has a bad internet and lag out in the manner… I’d simply say if you are lagging out do to your own computer issues causing the game to not work, it would be of your own volition to have begun playing the game, knowing you could have these problems. Thus a penalty for you and/or reward for your opponent are fair, because you knew the possibility of your computer acting up existed prior to playing.

Not wanting to be farmed forfeits – This is a completely understandable forfeit. You are back in a corner, unable to do much of anything. Your opponent, instead of simply ending the game, is stalling and hoping you will summon more units so they get more essence. This is bad on the ‘winner’ in this case; however, it doesn't take long at all to ‘suicide’ your units (that is to say, send your units into an obviously losing battle). While it does give them essence for those units when it wouldn't under a straight forfeit, it also shows you won’t be summoning more units; thus, they either have to end the game or stall out and still not get more essence. I don’t personally feel that this situation arises to the extent where you should have to constantly be forfeiting because of it, thus a reward/penalty shouldn't effect this situation too much.

Trolling (2nd losing situation) forfeit – There are times when, in addition to losing, someone is really angry that they are losing. Instead of ‘suiciding’ their units, or trying to figure a way to win or go down fighting, they build up their units for one large battle… acting like they will put up a fight; only to forfeit as soon as a battle will happen. Basically, the individual goes through the game after a certain point, only playing in order to forfeit and prevent their opponent from gaining essence. It is cynical, but it happens a bit more often than you would think it does.

In order to combat these different types of problems, I have devised my aforementioned proposal for the change of the forfeiting system to help combat the lack of reward for the non-forfeiter/ hinder people from constantly forfeiting if they get in a bad position and can’t take losing.
Gavyn the Mighty's avatar

Revered Inquisitor

While the above types of forfeits may or may not specifically be mentioned in this proposal, it should be fairly obvious as to how the types are all effected by this proposal.

Proposal:
This proposal is a dual aspect scenario to combat the different types of forfeits. This will still allow forfeits to occur, but will simply give a bit of a reward to the winner dependent upon situation and give a penalty to the loser.

- 500 essence cost to play PvP.
- Can only forfeit at beginning of turn [before timer countdown ends]; if forfeit occurs mid-turn/mid-battle, that turn is auto-played.

This 500 essence cost will be refunded at the end of the game so long as you see the game out to the end. If you forfeit, you lose this fee. Now, keep in mind, 500 isn’t an overly large amount, it can be easily gained from a couple games against the computer if you don’t have it on hand. It is a deterrent to forfeiting in that it is 500 essence that has to stay on your account that you can’t spend if you want to play PvP; if you lose it, it makes it take longer to earn enough to convert to gold or buy packs with. It may not be much, but it does add up if the person keeps forfeiting over and over again and as stated is a deterrent to the constant forfeiting. This essence will only be returned in a forfeit scenario under one condition; the four turn auto time out. This is where you have started the game, not moved at all and the game ended. A script will have to be put into place to make sure a mulligan has not taken place (which would negate the refund) prior to the 4 turn time out.

The time in a turn when you can forfeit is so that any potential battles (battles that would start or battles you are in the middle of) are auto-played on your end and the opponent still gets the chance to earn essence off of them. I think this aspect of it is fairly acceptable as it would be auto-played on both ends once a forfeit occurs, meaning it won’t add time to the game… meaning you can proceed to a new game just as fast; however, it does allow the winner to gain the essence that they would have rightfully earned had the opponent not forfeited (for whatever their reasoning was).

Experience and essence will still be granted after the first four turns (the current cut-off for where forfeits do and don’t count to records/stats) or if a battle occurs in the game (meaning before those first four turns). This four turn lag would likely become the most frequented time when a forfeit would occur; the 500 essence penalty for forfeiting would combat this fact (and the bad hand forfeiting). The 'penalty' or cost, as it were, also prevents intentional forfeiting for essence gain. If there is no penalty, game can be set up where one person forfeits one game, the other forfeits the next game [assuming the reward is in-place dependent upon battles]. This way, quick forfeit for reward games could not happen with as much benefit for the players, something Gaia would prefer; while it would still allow for 'earned' rewards and hinder the forfeiting problem.


To me, these situations all seem like fair things that should occur and are not going to hurt you at all if you only forfeit every now and then (i.e. if you actually do have something come up in real life, as opposed to simply losing the game).
Gavyn the Mighty's avatar

Revered Inquisitor

Issues and Responses:
See pages 2 through 6; far too much to copy and paste.
Gavyn the Mighty's avatar

Revered Inquisitor

Other possibilities:
Amendments to what this thread calls for.
Suggestions for potential changes that differ from what this thread calls for.

January 7th, 2013 AtA:

Panagrammic
8. My suspicion (not based on data -- haven't looked at it yet) is that we still don't properly incentivize good behavior. Having a time penalty if a person forfeits more than nn times in a given tie period would probably help.
10. We have a patch that grants essence for all units in battle on a forfeit. Hopefully this makes this particular scenario better.
Gavyn the Mighty
8] Opinions on sportsmanship (or lack thereof) in the game... what do you consider one way or the other. What stuff would you like to see fixed so that there are less hard feelings in the game (i.e. what people complain about frequently in the game, nothing in specific to suggest)?
10] Opinions on players forfeiting mid-battle, and possible changes to prevent this from happening.


These are potential fixes to a couple of the major aspects of this proposal; hopefully, these possibilities suggested by Pan are implemented and fix/help this.
Gavyn the Mighty's avatar

Revered Inquisitor

I believe that this is now open. I shouldn't need any more posts for the structure and content of this thread.
gataka's avatar

Familiar Lunatic

The extremities, the shear viciousness of behavior I've seen from people's desire for v-currency leaves me speechless :/

Let's get down to bzns. Where should I start?
Gavyn the Mighty

Winning:

I disagree: goal of the game is get "6 portals before oppo". This is binary.

We're not playing the same game aren't we?
Gavyn the Mighty's avatar

Revered Inquisitor

gataka
The extremities, the shear viciousness of behavior I've seen from people's desire for v-currency leave speechless :/

Let's get down to bzns. Where should I start?
Gavyn the Mighty

Winning:

I disagree: goal of the game is get "6 portals before oppo". This is binary.

We're not playing the same game aren't we?



Card Statistics and Details - Compiled
Card Averages: Faction, Mana Cost and Type. & Fun Facts
HoC Forfeit System Revision Proposal



Okay, that should be rephrased. However, unless you get past four turns, it doesn't matter how you win, as it does not count for standings, get you exp or essence. With forfeits, that is extended to get rid of exp and frequently costs you essence as forfeits occur either mid-battle or once the opponent sees the about to battle screen showing the units and decide to forfeit.

Additionally, while it may not be the purpose for everyone, winning still does give essence and exp, provided that win is not via forfeit; this happens regardless of intent. So to strip exp and essence out that should have been won had the forfeit not occurred, I feel is stripping something from the win, regardless of what someone is playing for.



Guys, seriously... if there is a thread or a post around here that you don't like... leave it be. Spreading hate and trolling people has no place in this community. Certain people may have been in the wrong, but when you troll or hate on them you get in the wrong too. Don't prolong it or add to it; let it go. If it is blatant trolling, a misplaced thread or anything that violates the ToS, report it and move along. Don't feed the trolls and don't add to the hatred. This is a nice, clean and happy community. Please, don't dirty it.

I am Gavyn the Mighty and I approve of this message.
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

gataka
I disagree: goal of the game is get "6 portals before oppo". This is binary.

We're not playing the same game aren't we?

Number one on the list of 'Ten Things HoC Doesn't Do' is "A Goal". We were aware of this already, yes? wink

I haven't actually written the thread yet, but you're sure tempting me... xp
gataka's avatar

Familiar Lunatic

Red Kutai
gataka
I disagree: goal of the game is get "6 portals before oppo". This is binary.

We're not playing the same game aren't we?

Number one on the list of 'Ten Things HoC Doesn't Do' is "A Goal". We were aware of this already, yes? wink

I haven't actually written the thread yet, but you're sure tempting me... xp
Write it already :U

The game has a clear goal. Proof being when you teach it to someone you have no problem saying "find six portals before other dude does". That's the game.

Rest is meta, for now anyway, trouble being it's gamified, for lack of a better term, and in a way often conflicting with the now subgame of HoC.

Let's not derail this further. Make that thread >:U
gataka's avatar

Familiar Lunatic

Hmm, no, this is really about protecting expected earnings.

I can see how it's a bummer to miss out on something you could have gained, but bummer is no harm.
Gavyn the Mighty's avatar

Revered Inquisitor

Card Statistics and Details - Compiled
Card Averages: Faction, Mana Cost and Type. & Fun Facts
HoC Forfeit System Revision Proposal



To me, expected earnings, be it essence or exp are part of the win. Yes, it is all well and good to win the game, but what is the point if you can't level up or earn better cards? To be 'robbed' in a sense of the ability to level up or be able to buy cards when someone forfeits, when you would have otherwise earned it isn't right.

Gaining essence and experience, that expected earning, are a part of winning... regardless if that is your main goal within a specific match. The game is about winning as much as it is leveling up and acquiring better cards... keeping you interested in playing. Without those two things, this game would get boring really quick for most players, resulting in a failed project. Making those things tougher, when they would have otherwise been earned had a player not forfeited should be fixed.



Guys, seriously... if there is a thread or a post around here that you don't like... leave it be. Spreading hate and trolling people has no place in this community. Certain people may have been in the wrong, but when you troll or hate on them you get in the wrong too. Don't prolong it or add to it; let it go. If it is blatant trolling, a misplaced thread or anything that violates the ToS, report it and move along. Don't feed the trolls and don't add to the hatred. This is a nice, clean and happy community. Please, don't dirty it.

I am Gavyn the Mighty and I approve of this message.
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

gataka
Let's not derail this further.

Interesting topic, but yes; there's plenty to discuss here without getting into all of that. sweatdrop

----
Gavyn the Mighty
forfeiting because you are losing, to me, seems very unsportsmanlike

Forfeiting in the hopes of denying your opponent his rewards is unsportsmanlike. Forfeiting because you no longer have an interest in playing this game - whether it's because you're losing or for any other reason - is not.

If you came into the game in the interest of winning, leaving when that interest is no longer attainable is perfectly logical - when 'honour' exists at-odds with logic, logic wins. If I go to an ice cream parlour that is no longer serving ice cream, is it unsportsmanlike for me to leave and find an ice cream parlour that is? And would it not be completely daft of me to leave my money there is if they were selling ice cream, even though they're not? Because I'm afraid that's precisely what you're suggesting. sweatdrop

Games are an entertainment medium - they are systems which convert 'minutes of my life' (among other things) into 'fun'. I invest 'minutes of my life' in the interest of receiving 'fun' in return; I play the game because I believe it offers that exchange favourably. What you're suggesting is that when that exchange ceases to be favourable, I should continue investing in it out of 'sportsmanship' - that because I began investing when it was worthwhile, I am somehow bound by honour to invest even when it isn't. That even though this parlour is no longer offering the ice cream I came for, I should keep throwing money at them because I was able to buy some on my last visit. No matter how good the ice cream may have been, that simply isn't an effective use of one's resources.

And what if that ice cream parlour suggested that because I didn't 'stick it out' and give them my money anyway, they were going to charge me more (or give me less) the next time I came to visit - that they were penalising me because they failed to offer a reasonable exchange. Does that seem like a sound business strategy? Would you visit there again?

In actively playing, a game is constantly requesting that the player reinvest their own resources into it; the game is trying to 'sell' its fun in exchange for the player's time. Like any customer, players have the right to refuse that request at any time they see fit; prior investment is not an obligation, and it is the seller's - that is, the game's - responsibility to make that request as attractive as possible. The right to forfeit, to stop investing their time, is a fundamental right of the player - any attempt to coerce players into waiving that right is unnatural, and unjustifiable. As I've said many times before already, the problem here is not that the game is allowing players to forfeit freely - players have the right to forfeit freely, and anything else would be a denial of that natural right - but because it is penalising those involved for exercising that right in the first place. The only way in which the game can rightfully avoid the sorts of situations you're proposing is by making the investment of time in the game more attractive - it should be giving players a reason to want to keep playing, not giving them reasons to not stop.

What the game really needs are better comeback features (Number 4 if you're counting, gataka wink ), so that players in losing positions don't feel that concession is their best option - players should always have a chance to win (or feel like they do, at least), and they should always have some idea of what they need to do in order to achieve that. If these things were true, players simply wouldn't be inclined to forfeit in the first place. The question of 'who will win' needs to remain unanswered for as long as there are two or more players left in the game - if a player is in a position where they can't win anyway, the game should just kick them out itself. If the game fails to do that, then you really can't fault the player for taking it upon themselves... redface
gataka's avatar

Familiar Lunatic

First, I really don't pay attention and don't get much forfeits beyond "oh sheet, level 9000+" (or maybe they don't want to play me for some reasons...maybe it's the map... so digressing, back on target '>.> )

I mean, if somehow a forfeit makes you lose stuff you've ALREADY gained, yeah that's a prob and the answer is to make it so a forfeit can't do that, not make it so people don't forfeit.

Second, what Kutai said :U

Third now, point of the game is to enjoy the game, xp/essence/cards you get out of a game are there to feed into your next game, likely making it more enjoyable, no problem here, wtv.

Fact is, minus forfeit's potentially making you lose stuff you've already earned, agreed that's wrong, you do earn xp/essence.

You could have gained more, it just don't happen in the "natural" flow of the game.
Why hurt said flow to protect that potential? I still don't get it.

Anyway, the big idea is to get these, the game and metagame's needs, to line up.
I'm a proponent of the XP/E you win being solely based on whether you've won or not, regardless of how, forfeits counting as a loss. That's the short version, has issues. Yes, a long hard fight would give you as much as 12sec curbstomp, or a turn X forfeit. It's flawed :U

But altering how you gain rewards is a better venue to solving the problem (or part of it) than altering how forfeits work.

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