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DlCK CATSTY
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We can speculate who attacked whom all day; but there is no factual evidence to back either claim up. Your speculation that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman; is simply that. We can only go on the facts present; and your denunciation of Trayvon for possibly defending himself, shows your unwillingness to apply the law equally.

FACT: Trayvon is dead.

FACT: Trayvon's girlfriend and a 911 operator are the only immediate witnesses; and testimony by both support the idea that Zimmerman followed him with both Trayvon and Zimmerman admitting it separately, respectively; but neither provided proof that Trayvon was engaged in anything besides walking down the street.

FACT: Following someone is not illegal in most circumstances; but it is reasonable cause to attack someone in Florida under FS 776.013 which "justifies the use of deadly force" when one posses a "reasonable presumption of fear"

FACT: The same "Stand Your Ground Law" (aka 776.013) that Zimmerman's defenders are citing as a defense; applies equally to Trayvon; meaning Trayvon was justified in attacking someone who both Zimmerman himself (on the 911 call) and the two witnesses all collaborate was following Trayvon.

My position on this to a T.

The only 'witness' that came to support Zimmerman's argument can only attest that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. Its my belief that, under Florida law, he attempted to defend himself (As per his right in FL) when confronted by Zimmerman, who had his firearm drawn and in his hand.

I dont know about others, but some joker has a gun drawn and is asking me "What am I doing?", my instinct will be to either run or try my damnedest to get that arm out of his possession.


Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.


There is nothing to respond to. It's personal opinions and speculation.

www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head

He had a gash on the back of his head. That did not get there by itself and the responding officer saw the same wounds.

To believe the conflict was one-sided is utter ignorance.

Where did I say it was one-sided? I fully believe it was a conflict between two men; one man who intended to follow this young black man for racial reasons and intended to provoke him so he could have an excuse to play hero as the 'self appointed' neighborhood watch president, and the other a young teen who was confronted by a man with a fire arm in his waistband/hand on a dark rainy night who had been stalking him asking what he was doing, who then had police from a department with a history of violating basic processing procedures show up and seemed to treat the death of a human being as little more than a lost kitty-cat call.

That is what I believe is the essence of this whole sad affair.
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He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.


Even if that is what happened.....that's not illegal. You have the right to confront someone who is following you.

Quote:
So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?


I didn't see any blood, anywhere, in the surveillance video that I saw.


www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head


Yet there is no blood on his clothing.

And with the way head wounds bleed...


Video showing possible head wound and police report saying he was bleeding and had a head wound.


Which, itself, works against Zimmerman. Legally, he still instigated the fight. The legal "wrong" is still on him.
halfcocked catstabator's avatar

Lonely Dabbler

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DlCK CATSTY
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Smash the State
We can speculate who attacked whom all day; but there is no factual evidence to back either claim up. Your speculation that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman; is simply that. We can only go on the facts present; and your denunciation of Trayvon for possibly defending himself, shows your unwillingness to apply the law equally.

FACT: Trayvon is dead.

FACT: Trayvon's girlfriend and a 911 operator are the only immediate witnesses; and testimony by both support the idea that Zimmerman followed him with both Trayvon and Zimmerman admitting it separately, respectively; but neither provided proof that Trayvon was engaged in anything besides walking down the street.

FACT: Following someone is not illegal in most circumstances; but it is reasonable cause to attack someone in Florida under FS 776.013 which "justifies the use of deadly force" when one posses a "reasonable presumption of fear"

FACT: The same "Stand Your Ground Law" (aka 776.013) that Zimmerman's defenders are citing as a defense; applies equally to Trayvon; meaning Trayvon was justified in attacking someone who both Zimmerman himself (on the 911 call) and the two witnesses all collaborate was following Trayvon.

My position on this to a T.

The only 'witness' that came to support Zimmerman's argument can only attest that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. Its my belief that, under Florida law, he attempted to defend himself (As per his right in FL) when confronted by Zimmerman, who had his firearm drawn and in his hand.

I dont know about others, but some joker has a gun drawn and is asking me "What am I doing?", my instinct will be to either run or try my damnedest to get that arm out of his possession.


Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.

So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?

Home or not is irrelevant. Why so you focus on meaningless things? Point is, dude confronts me, gun in waistband or hand, on a dark rainy night, I dont assume he is going to ask me which way is the late night mass. I am going to assume he is intending to rob me and/or kill me.

Like I said, I think what happened is that Zimmerman followed Trayvon, Trayvon confronted him (As per his right under FL Stand Your Ground Law) when Zimmerman approached. At that point, I believe Trayvon attempted to rest the gun from Mr. Zimmerman, who, having successfully provoked Mr. Martin, discharged his firearm.


Responding police officer reported blood on the front and back of his head. Trayvon had to have been able to get really close to do that without being shot on the spot the moment he showed aggression towards Zimmerman.

Never mind that reportedly Trayvon doubled back and went back after Zimmerman once Zimmerman had stopped following him.
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Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.

So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?

Home or not is irrelevant. Why so you focus on meaningless things? Point is, dude confronts me, gun in waistband or hand, on a dark rainy night, I dont assume he is going to ask me which way is the late night mass. I am going to assume he is intending to rob me and/or kill me.

Like I said, I think what happened is that Zimmerman followed Trayvon, Trayvon confronted him (As per his right under FL Stand Your Ground Law) when Zimmerman approached. At that point, I believe Trayvon attempted to rest the gun from Mr. Zimmerman, who, having successfully provoked Mr. Martin, discharged his firearm.


Responding police officer reported blood on the front and back of his head. Trayvon had to have been able to get really close to do that without being shot on the spot the moment he showed aggression towards Zimmerman.

Never mind that reportedly Trayvon doubled back and went back after Zimmerman once Zimmerman had stopped following him.


I find it interesting how you're not addressing Zimmerman's history of violence, instead putting all the blame on a teenage boy who has no record of violence.
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Even if that is what happened.....that's not illegal. You have the right to confront someone who is following you.



I didn't see any blood, anywhere, in the surveillance video that I saw.


www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head


Yet there is no blood on his clothing.

And with the way head wounds bleed...


Video showing possible head wound and police report saying he was bleeding and had a head wound.


Which, itself, works against Zimmerman. Legally, he still instigated the fight. The legal "wrong" is still on him.


He instigated the fight while reportedly walking back to his suv?
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DlCK CATSTY
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Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.

So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?

Home or not is irrelevant. Why so you focus on meaningless things? Point is, dude confronts me, gun in waistband or hand, on a dark rainy night, I dont assume he is going to ask me which way is the late night mass. I am going to assume he is intending to rob me and/or kill me.

Like I said, I think what happened is that Zimmerman followed Trayvon, Trayvon confronted him (As per his right under FL Stand Your Ground Law) when Zimmerman approached. At that point, I believe Trayvon attempted to rest the gun from Mr. Zimmerman, who, having successfully provoked Mr. Martin, discharged his firearm.


Responding police officer reported blood on the front and back of his head. Trayvon had to have been able to get really close to do that without being shot on the spot the moment he showed aggression towards Zimmerman.

Never mind that reportedly Trayvon doubled back and went back after Zimmerman once Zimmerman had stopped following him.


I find it interesting how you're not addressing Zimmerman's history of violence, instead putting all the blame on a teenage boy who has no record of violence.


Are you telling me that there is such a thing as a black person with no history of violence?! eek
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black_wing_angel


Even if that is what happened.....that's not illegal. You have the right to confront someone who is following you.



I didn't see any blood, anywhere, in the surveillance video that I saw.


www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head


Yet there is no blood on his clothing.

And with the way head wounds bleed...


Video showing possible head wound and police report saying he was bleeding and had a head wound.


Which, itself, works against Zimmerman. Legally, he still instigated the fight. The legal "wrong" is still on him.


He instigated the fight while reportedly walking back to his suv?


Because people never lie.
DlCK CATSTY
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Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.

So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?

Home or not is irrelevant. Why so you focus on meaningless things? Point is, dude confronts me, gun in waistband or hand, on a dark rainy night, I dont assume he is going to ask me which way is the late night mass. I am going to assume he is intending to rob me and/or kill me.

Like I said, I think what happened is that Zimmerman followed Trayvon, Trayvon confronted him (As per his right under FL Stand Your Ground Law) when Zimmerman approached. At that point, I believe Trayvon attempted to rest the gun from Mr. Zimmerman, who, having successfully provoked Mr. Martin, discharged his firearm.


Responding police officer reported blood on the front and back of his head. Trayvon had to have been able to get really close to do that without being shot on the spot the moment he showed aggression towards Zimmerman.

Never mind that reportedly Trayvon doubled back and went back after Zimmerman once Zimmerman had stopped following him.

'Had to...' nothing. You assume he had to be close for one, and secondly, close or not is irrelevant. Armed dude from the shadows comes at me, I will take any chance I can get to protect myself, and if that means getting the drop on him before I get to see what he plans to do with the piece of his, all the better for me. Even better if the laws in my state specifically allow me to stand my ground on someone whom I believe presents a reasonable threat to my safety.

Citation from more than one recognized source that can confirm, and not just speculate, that he first double-backed and that he intentionally did so to assault poor ol' armed adult 'self appointed neighborhood watch president' Mr. Zimmerman.
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Even if that is what happened.....that's not illegal. You have the right to confront someone who is following you.



I didn't see any blood, anywhere, in the surveillance video that I saw.


www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head


Yet there is no blood on his clothing.

And with the way head wounds bleed...


Video showing possible head wound and police report saying he was bleeding and had a head wound.


Which, itself, works against Zimmerman. Legally, he still instigated the fight. The legal "wrong" is still on him.


He instigated the fight while reportedly walking back to his suv?


This assumes he was doing so. There's no substantial evidence of that. There is, however, CONCRETE PROOF that he was following Treyvon. Which basically means we have strong evidence that Treyvon's actions were legal, with no evidence that they were not.
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Yet there is no blood on his clothing.

And with the way head wounds bleed...


Video showing possible head wound and police report saying he was bleeding and had a head wound.


Which, itself, works against Zimmerman. Legally, he still instigated the fight. The legal "wrong" is still on him.


He instigated the fight while reportedly walking back to his suv?


Because people never lie.


http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back
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Yet there is no blood on his clothing.

And with the way head wounds bleed...


Video showing possible head wound and police report saying he was bleeding and had a head wound.


Which, itself, works against Zimmerman. Legally, he still instigated the fight. The legal "wrong" is still on him.


He instigated the fight while reportedly walking back to his suv?


Because people never lie.


http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back


I read, that is rough speculation at best.

Call me crazy but I think the more rational conclusion to come to is that the guy who always starts fights? Was the guy who started the fight.

Even if it's not the case, he only has his past behavior to blame for people making that assumption.

And it's a long history of past behavior.
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Yet there is no blood on his clothing.

And with the way head wounds bleed...


Video showing possible head wound and police report saying he was bleeding and had a head wound.


Which, itself, works against Zimmerman. Legally, he still instigated the fight. The legal "wrong" is still on him.


He instigated the fight while reportedly walking back to his suv?


This assumes he was doing so. There's no substantial evidence of that. There is, however, CONCRETE PROOF that he was following Treyvon. Which basically means we have strong evidence that Treyvon's actions were legal, with no evidence that they were not.


But Trayvon was very close to where he was staying. He could have easily just gone there, he was definitely faster than Zimmerman. Instead he turned and confronted Zimmerman after he was reportedly heading back and asked him if he had a problem.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager
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Which, itself, works against Zimmerman. Legally, he still instigated the fight. The legal "wrong" is still on him.


He instigated the fight while reportedly walking back to his suv?


Because people never lie.


http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back


I read, that is rough speculation at best.

Call me crazy but I think the more rational conclusion to come to is that the guy who always starts fights? Was the guy who started the fight.

Even if it's not the case, he only has his past behavior to blame for people making that assumption.

And it's a long history of past behavior.

And Trayvon's twitter didn't mention him swinging on a bus driver?
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black_wing_angel


Which, itself, works against Zimmerman. Legally, he still instigated the fight. The legal "wrong" is still on him.


He instigated the fight while reportedly walking back to his suv?


Because people never lie.


http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back


I read, that is rough speculation at best.

Call me crazy but I think the more rational conclusion to come to is that the guy who always starts fights? Was the guy who started the fight.

Even if it's not the case, he only has his past behavior to blame for people making that assumption.

And it's a long history of past behavior.

And Trayvon's twitter didn't mention him swinging on a bus driver?


His cousin's twitter made reference, it was originally speculated to be why he was suspended. However, it was not. He was suspended for smoking weed on school property. We don't know how much truth there is too it.

Zimmerman on the other hand lost a job because he was too aggressive, was an abusive boyfriend according to his ex and made the smart decision of hitting a police officer.
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Lonely Dabbler

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Because people never lie.


http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back


I read, that is rough speculation at best.

Call me crazy but I think the more rational conclusion to come to is that the guy who always starts fights? Was the guy who started the fight.

Even if it's not the case, he only has his past behavior to blame for people making that assumption.

And it's a long history of past behavior.

And Trayvon's twitter didn't mention him swinging on a bus driver?


His cousin's twitter made reference, it was originally speculated to be why he was suspended. However, it was not. He was suspended for smoking weed on school property. We don't know how much truth there is too it.

Zimmerman on the other hand lost a job because he was too aggressive, was an abusive boyfriend according to his ex and made the smart decision of hitting a police officer.


It was actually his older brother's twitter which seems like a pretty credible source considering they are siblings.

Physically lashing out at a bud driver, doing drugs at school and vandalizing school property.

Both of the people involved had made poor decisions in the past and both did their part in what ultimately happened.

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