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We can speculate who attacked whom all day; but there is no factual evidence to back either claim up. Your speculation that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman; is simply that. We can only go on the facts present; and your denunciation of Trayvon for possibly defending himself, shows your unwillingness to apply the law equally.

FACT: Trayvon is dead.

FACT: Trayvon's girlfriend and a 911 operator are the only immediate witnesses; and testimony by both support the idea that Zimmerman followed him with both Trayvon and Zimmerman admitting it separately, respectively; but neither provided proof that Trayvon was engaged in anything besides walking down the street.

FACT: Following someone is not illegal in most circumstances; but it is reasonable cause to attack someone in Florida under FS 776.013 which "justifies the use of deadly force" when one posses a "reasonable presumption of fear"

FACT: The same "Stand Your Ground Law" (aka 776.013) that Zimmerman's defenders are citing as a defense; applies equally to Trayvon; meaning Trayvon was justified in attacking someone who both Zimmerman himself (on the 911 call) and the two witnesses all collaborate was following Trayvon.

My position on this to a T.

The only 'witness' that came to support Zimmerman's argument can only attest that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. Its my belief that, under Florida law, he attempted to defend himself (As per his right in FL) when confronted by Zimmerman, who had his firearm drawn and in his hand.

I dont know about others, but some joker has a gun drawn and is asking me "What am I doing?", my instinct will be to either run or try my damnedest to get that arm out of his possession.


Seriously.

The Stand Your Ground law is in Trayvon's favor here, not Zimmermans.

Guy is following you at night with a gun? You pretty much only have two options there.

The sad truth is that I think its in both men's favor and is the reason I think, at a minimum, that the FL Stand Your Ground law should be eliminated.


I really should track down the source but I remember reading that one of the men behind the law said that Zimmerman gave up his ability to use 'stand your ground' when he decided to follow him.

He became the pursuer in this situation.

But the way the law is written is problematic and needs to modified (if not completely eliminated, which I would prefer).
worse than i seem
It's also worth noting that volunteers for the neighborhood watch are not allowed to carry weapons via their organization's policy.

So right there is shows disregard on Zimmerman's part for the rules.

This is also the man who had assaulted a cop and has an ex-girlfriend who took a restraining order out on him because he was violent towards her.

The man has a history of violence, it's a pattern.

I thought it was painfully clear that this guy was at best a vigilante and at worst a thug when it was said he was the 'self-appointed' president of the neighborhood watch. I mean really, who the hell does that?
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We can speculate who attacked whom all day; but there is no factual evidence to back either claim up. Your speculation that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman; is simply that. We can only go on the facts present; and your denunciation of Trayvon for possibly defending himself, shows your unwillingness to apply the law equally.

FACT: Trayvon is dead.

FACT: Trayvon's girlfriend and a 911 operator are the only immediate witnesses; and testimony by both support the idea that Zimmerman followed him with both Trayvon and Zimmerman admitting it separately, respectively; but neither provided proof that Trayvon was engaged in anything besides walking down the street.

FACT: Following someone is not illegal in most circumstances; but it is reasonable cause to attack someone in Florida under FS 776.013 which "justifies the use of deadly force" when one posses a "reasonable presumption of fear"

FACT: The same "Stand Your Ground Law" (aka 776.013) that Zimmerman's defenders are citing as a defense; applies equally to Trayvon; meaning Trayvon was justified in attacking someone who both Zimmerman himself (on the 911 call) and the two witnesses all collaborate was following Trayvon.

My position on this to a T.

The only 'witness' that came to support Zimmerman's argument can only attest that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. Its my belief that, under Florida law, he attempted to defend himself (As per his right in FL) when confronted by Zimmerman, who had his firearm drawn and in his hand.

I dont know about others, but some joker has a gun drawn and is asking me "What am I doing?", my instinct will be to either run or try my damnedest to get that arm out of his possession.


Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.


So are you saying that the police were there BEFORE the shooting? Or are you saying he shot him without drawing the weapon?

Just seems to me like it's not terribly difficult to put a gun that's been fired, back into your waistband (which, itself, is blatantly idiotic. Possibly illegal), within the...what? 10 minutes it'd take the cops to show up?

I can holster a firearm in only seconds...I had assumed that wasn't some spectacular feat...
worse than i seem
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worse than i seem
Riviera de la Mancha
Smash the State
We can speculate who attacked whom all day; but there is no factual evidence to back either claim up. Your speculation that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman; is simply that. We can only go on the facts present; and your denunciation of Trayvon for possibly defending himself, shows your unwillingness to apply the law equally.

FACT: Trayvon is dead.

FACT: Trayvon's girlfriend and a 911 operator are the only immediate witnesses; and testimony by both support the idea that Zimmerman followed him with both Trayvon and Zimmerman admitting it separately, respectively; but neither provided proof that Trayvon was engaged in anything besides walking down the street.

FACT: Following someone is not illegal in most circumstances; but it is reasonable cause to attack someone in Florida under FS 776.013 which "justifies the use of deadly force" when one posses a "reasonable presumption of fear"

FACT: The same "Stand Your Ground Law" (aka 776.013) that Zimmerman's defenders are citing as a defense; applies equally to Trayvon; meaning Trayvon was justified in attacking someone who both Zimmerman himself (on the 911 call) and the two witnesses all collaborate was following Trayvon.

My position on this to a T.

The only 'witness' that came to support Zimmerman's argument can only attest that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. Its my belief that, under Florida law, he attempted to defend himself (As per his right in FL) when confronted by Zimmerman, who had his firearm drawn and in his hand.

I dont know about others, but some joker has a gun drawn and is asking me "What am I doing?", my instinct will be to either run or try my damnedest to get that arm out of his possession.


Seriously.

The Stand Your Ground law is in Trayvon's favor here, not Zimmermans.

Guy is following you at night with a gun? You pretty much only have two options there.

The sad truth is that I think its in both men's favor and is the reason I think, at a minimum, that the FL Stand Your Ground law should be eliminated.


I really should track down the source but I remember reading that one of the men behind the law said that Zimmerman gave up his ability to use 'stand your ground' when he decided to follow him.

He became the pursuer in this situation.

But the way the law is written is problematic and needs to modified (if not completely eliminated, which I would prefer).

I fail to see how, as the FL law allows people to follow because it allows deadly force to prevent what the person believes is a break-in or abduction.
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We can speculate who attacked whom all day; but there is no factual evidence to back either claim up. Your speculation that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman; is simply that. We can only go on the facts present; and your denunciation of Trayvon for possibly defending himself, shows your unwillingness to apply the law equally.

FACT: Trayvon is dead.

FACT: Trayvon's girlfriend and a 911 operator are the only immediate witnesses; and testimony by both support the idea that Zimmerman followed him with both Trayvon and Zimmerman admitting it separately, respectively; but neither provided proof that Trayvon was engaged in anything besides walking down the street.

FACT: Following someone is not illegal in most circumstances; but it is reasonable cause to attack someone in Florida under FS 776.013 which "justifies the use of deadly force" when one posses a "reasonable presumption of fear"

FACT: The same "Stand Your Ground Law" (aka 776.013) that Zimmerman's defenders are citing as a defense; applies equally to Trayvon; meaning Trayvon was justified in attacking someone who both Zimmerman himself (on the 911 call) and the two witnesses all collaborate was following Trayvon.

My position on this to a T.

The only 'witness' that came to support Zimmerman's argument can only attest that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. Its my belief that, under Florida law, he attempted to defend himself (As per his right in FL) when confronted by Zimmerman, who had his firearm drawn and in his hand.

I dont know about others, but some joker has a gun drawn and is asking me "What am I doing?", my instinct will be to either run or try my damnedest to get that arm out of his possession.


Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.

So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?
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So, are you going to respond to me or what? You just trollin?
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We can speculate who attacked whom all day; but there is no factual evidence to back either claim up. Your speculation that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman; is simply that. We can only go on the facts present; and your denunciation of Trayvon for possibly defending himself, shows your unwillingness to apply the law equally.

FACT: Trayvon is dead.

FACT: Trayvon's girlfriend and a 911 operator are the only immediate witnesses; and testimony by both support the idea that Zimmerman followed him with both Trayvon and Zimmerman admitting it separately, respectively; but neither provided proof that Trayvon was engaged in anything besides walking down the street.

FACT: Following someone is not illegal in most circumstances; but it is reasonable cause to attack someone in Florida under FS 776.013 which "justifies the use of deadly force" when one posses a "reasonable presumption of fear"

FACT: The same "Stand Your Ground Law" (aka 776.013) that Zimmerman's defenders are citing as a defense; applies equally to Trayvon; meaning Trayvon was justified in attacking someone who both Zimmerman himself (on the 911 call) and the two witnesses all collaborate was following Trayvon.

My position on this to a T.

The only 'witness' that came to support Zimmerman's argument can only attest that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. Its my belief that, under Florida law, he attempted to defend himself (As per his right in FL) when confronted by Zimmerman, who had his firearm drawn and in his hand.

I dont know about others, but some joker has a gun drawn and is asking me "What am I doing?", my instinct will be to either run or try my damnedest to get that arm out of his possession.


Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.


Even if that is what happened.....that's not illegal. You have the right to confront someone who is following you.

Quote:
So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?


I didn't see any blood, anywhere, in the surveillance video that I saw.
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My position on this to a T.

The only 'witness' that came to support Zimmerman's argument can only attest that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. Its my belief that, under Florida law, he attempted to defend himself (As per his right in FL) when confronted by Zimmerman, who had his firearm drawn and in his hand.

I dont know about others, but some joker has a gun drawn and is asking me "What am I doing?", my instinct will be to either run or try my damnedest to get that arm out of his possession.


Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.


Even if that is what happened.....that's not illegal. You have the right to confront someone who is following you.

Quote:
So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?


I didn't see any blood, anywhere, in the surveillance video that I saw.


www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head
halfcocked catstabator's avatar

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We can speculate who attacked whom all day; but there is no factual evidence to back either claim up. Your speculation that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman; is simply that. We can only go on the facts present; and your denunciation of Trayvon for possibly defending himself, shows your unwillingness to apply the law equally.

FACT: Trayvon is dead.

FACT: Trayvon's girlfriend and a 911 operator are the only immediate witnesses; and testimony by both support the idea that Zimmerman followed him with both Trayvon and Zimmerman admitting it separately, respectively; but neither provided proof that Trayvon was engaged in anything besides walking down the street.

FACT: Following someone is not illegal in most circumstances; but it is reasonable cause to attack someone in Florida under FS 776.013 which "justifies the use of deadly force" when one posses a "reasonable presumption of fear"

FACT: The same "Stand Your Ground Law" (aka 776.013) that Zimmerman's defenders are citing as a defense; applies equally to Trayvon; meaning Trayvon was justified in attacking someone who both Zimmerman himself (on the 911 call) and the two witnesses all collaborate was following Trayvon.

My position on this to a T.

The only 'witness' that came to support Zimmerman's argument can only attest that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. Its my belief that, under Florida law, he attempted to defend himself (As per his right in FL) when confronted by Zimmerman, who had his firearm drawn and in his hand.

I dont know about others, but some joker has a gun drawn and is asking me "What am I doing?", my instinct will be to either run or try my damnedest to get that arm out of his possession.


Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.


There is nothing to respond to. It's personal opinions and speculation.

www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head

He had a gash on the back of his head. That did not get there by itself and the responding officer saw the same wounds.

To believe the conflict was one-sided is utter ignorance.
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Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.


Even if that is what happened.....that's not illegal. You have the right to confront someone who is following you.

Quote:
So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?


I didn't see any blood, anywhere, in the surveillance video that I saw.


www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head


Yet there is no blood on his clothing.

And with the way head wounds bleed...
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Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.


Even if that is what happened.....that's not illegal. You have the right to confront someone who is following you.

Quote:
So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?


I didn't see any blood, anywhere, in the surveillance video that I saw.


www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head


Yet there is no blood on his clothing.

And with the way head wounds bleed...
Especially considering the story that his head was repeatedly slammed against the pavement. If he didn't have a concussion from that, at the very least, then I'd be pretty sure he's bullshittin'.
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Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.


Even if that is what happened.....that's not illegal. You have the right to confront someone who is following you.

Quote:
So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?


I didn't see any blood, anywhere, in the surveillance video that I saw.


www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head


You honestly think the news doesn't doctor these things?

Also, I've seen that "wound". It looks like it's at least a few months old. Too old at least, to be a result of the confrontation.
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Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.


Even if that is what happened.....that's not illegal. You have the right to confront someone who is following you.

Quote:
So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?


I didn't see any blood, anywhere, in the surveillance video that I saw.


www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head


Yet there is no blood on his clothing.

And with the way head wounds bleed...


Video showing possible head wound and police report saying he was bleeding and had a head wound.
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We can speculate who attacked whom all day; but there is no factual evidence to back either claim up. Your speculation that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman; is simply that. We can only go on the facts present; and your denunciation of Trayvon for possibly defending himself, shows your unwillingness to apply the law equally.

FACT: Trayvon is dead.

FACT: Trayvon's girlfriend and a 911 operator are the only immediate witnesses; and testimony by both support the idea that Zimmerman followed him with both Trayvon and Zimmerman admitting it separately, respectively; but neither provided proof that Trayvon was engaged in anything besides walking down the street.

FACT: Following someone is not illegal in most circumstances; but it is reasonable cause to attack someone in Florida under FS 776.013 which "justifies the use of deadly force" when one posses a "reasonable presumption of fear"

FACT: The same "Stand Your Ground Law" (aka 776.013) that Zimmerman's defenders are citing as a defense; applies equally to Trayvon; meaning Trayvon was justified in attacking someone who both Zimmerman himself (on the 911 call) and the two witnesses all collaborate was following Trayvon.

My position on this to a T.

The only 'witness' that came to support Zimmerman's argument can only attest that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman. Its my belief that, under Florida law, he attempted to defend himself (As per his right in FL) when confronted by Zimmerman, who had his firearm drawn and in his hand.

I dont know about others, but some joker has a gun drawn and is asking me "What am I doing?", my instinct will be to either run or try my damnedest to get that arm out of his possession.


Cite that he had it in his hand. When police showed up it was in his pants waistband and that's presumably where it stayed until a struggle broke out.

Presumably? Perhaps to you- I think its at least plausible that, in the time it took for the police to come, he put the gun into his waistband. And, drawn or not, I see a joker confront me on a rainy night asking "What am I doing?" as I am walking home with snacks, and I dont see a badge, I assume he has no good intentions for me.

He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.

So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?

Home or not is irrelevant. Why so you focus on meaningless things? Point is, dude confronts me, gun in waistband or hand, on a dark rainy night, I dont assume he is going to ask me which way is the late night mass. I am going to assume he is intending to rob me and/or kill me.

Like I said, I think what happened is that Zimmerman followed Trayvon, Trayvon confronted him (As per his right under FL Stand Your Ground Law) when Zimmerman approached. At that point, I believe Trayvon attempted to rest the gun from Mr. Zimmerman, who, having successfully provoked Mr. Martin, discharged his firearm.
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He lived with his mother usually so it wasn't his home.

Allegedly he didn't confront Trayvon, he only followed him. Trayvon went up to him and confronted him.


Even if that is what happened.....that's not illegal. You have the right to confront someone who is following you.

Quote:
So the police report that mentions his back wet from the grass, blood from his nose and head is fake?


I didn't see any blood, anywhere, in the surveillance video that I saw.


www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-case-enhanced-police-video-shows-marks-injuries-on-back-zimmermans-head


Yet there is no blood on his clothing.

And with the way head wounds bleed...


Video showing possible head wound and police report saying he was bleeding and had a head wound.


There is no way he wouldn't have any blood on his shirt, I've seen minor head injuries soak a shirt with blood. It doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying he didn't have an injury on his head, what I'm saying is it was probably from a previous event. Since the man has a history of fights and violence it wouldn't be a huge leap of faith to assume he got this in another fight.

Head wounds bleed like a b***h, if his head was smashed into the ground repeatedly his shirt should be *soaked* with blood. Yet his shirt is perfectly clean.

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