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Kasumi, 2+2=4. Except when adding numbers based on what you've said. Somewhere along the lines, we've got a conflicting bit of information. I'd like some clarification.
You state we have a situation where Zimmerman and Martin were grappling over the firearm, leading to a FTE(Failure to Eject), which makes sense. What causes the firearm to cycle (chamber another round) is the force of the explosion forcing the slide back, and then it will spring forward, forcing another cartridge into the barrel. However, you stated in a much earlier post that the police found the spent round on the ground nearby.
Now, while it is possible to eject a spent round and not chamber another, that would be a mechanical defect more than what you're describing.
Also, if Martin had his hands on the slide when the trigger was pulled/pressed/bumped while struggling over the firearm, when the slide goes back on a firearm, it's a violent movement, and would definitely leave marks that are quite visible on the hand.
Before those building the scaffolding go running off to buy more wood and nails, remember that the prosecution, much like the defense, is not going to put this information out.
Prosecution would know damn good and well that wounds to his hands would be pretty damning evidence in support of Zimmerman's case. Likewise, Zimmerman's attorneys know this as well.
And before anyone goes apeshit, no, it won't rip the hide off your hands and expose bone. But it will leave marks that are visible.
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Kasumi, 2+2=4. Except when adding numbers based on what you've said. Somewhere along the lines, we've got a conflicting bit of information. I'd like some clarification.
You state we have a situation where Zimmerman and Martin were grappling over the firearm, leading to a FTE(Failure to Eject), which makes sense. What causes the firearm to cycle (chamber another round) is the force of the explosion forcing the slide back, and then it will spring forward, forcing another cartridge into the barrel. However, you stated in a much earlier post that the police found the spent round on the ground nearby.
Now, while it is possible to eject a spent round and not chamber another, that would be a mechanical defect more than what you're describing.
Also, if Martin had his hands on the slide when the trigger was pulled/pressed/bumped while struggling over the firearm, when the slide goes back on a firearm, it's a violent movement, and would definitely leave marks that are quite visible on the hand.
Before those building the scaffolding go running off to buy more wood and nails, remember that the prosecution, much like the defense, is not going to put this information out.
Prosecution would know damn good and well that wounds to his hands would be pretty damning evidence in support of Zimmerman's case. Likewise, Zimmerman's attorneys know this as well.
And before anyone goes apeshit, no, it won't rip the hide off your hands and expose bone. But it will leave marks that are visible.

I know what you are talking about. It's painful, yes, but you wont see bone. It will bleed, though. Just not badly.
Hanma Selis
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Kasumi, 2+2=4. Except when adding numbers based on what you've said. Somewhere along the lines, we've got a conflicting bit of information. I'd like some clarification.
You state we have a situation where Zimmerman and Martin were grappling over the firearm, leading to a FTE(Failure to Eject), which makes sense. What causes the firearm to cycle (chamber another round) is the force of the explosion forcing the slide back, and then it will spring forward, forcing another cartridge into the barrel. However, you stated in a much earlier post that the police found the spent round on the ground nearby.
Now, while it is possible to eject a spent round and not chamber another, that would be a mechanical defect more than what you're describing.
Also, if Martin had his hands on the slide when the trigger was pulled/pressed/bumped while struggling over the firearm, when the slide goes back on a firearm, it's a violent movement, and would definitely leave marks that are quite visible on the hand.
Before those building the scaffolding go running off to buy more wood and nails, remember that the prosecution, much like the defense, is not going to put this information out.
Prosecution would know damn good and well that wounds to his hands would be pretty damning evidence in support of Zimmerman's case. Likewise, Zimmerman's attorneys know this as well.
And before anyone goes apeshit, no, it won't rip the hide off your hands and expose bone. But it will leave marks that are visible.

I know what you are talking about. It's painful, yes, but you wont see bone. It will bleed, though. Just not badly.


Exactly, but it definitely leaves visible injuries to your hand.
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Kasumi, 2+2=4. Except when adding numbers based on what you've said. Somewhere along the lines, we've got a conflicting bit of information. I'd like some clarification.
You state we have a situation where Zimmerman and Martin were grappling over the firearm, leading to a FTE(Failure to Eject), which makes sense. What causes the firearm to cycle (chamber another round) is the force of the explosion forcing the slide back, and then it will spring forward, forcing another cartridge into the barrel. However, you stated in a much earlier post that the police found the spent round on the ground nearby.
Now, while it is possible to eject a spent round and not chamber another, that would be a mechanical defect more than what you're describing.
Also, if Martin had his hands on the slide when the trigger was pulled/pressed/bumped while struggling over the firearm, when the slide goes back on a firearm, it's a violent movement, and would definitely leave marks that are quite visible on the hand.
Before those building the scaffolding go running off to buy more wood and nails, remember that the prosecution, much like the defense, is not going to put this information out.
Prosecution would know damn good and well that wounds to his hands would be pretty damning evidence in support of Zimmerman's case. Likewise, Zimmerman's attorneys know this as well.
And before anyone goes apeshit, no, it won't rip the hide off your hands and expose bone. But it will leave marks that are visible.


I don't own that kind of gun, but conceivably it partially ejected the shell casing, and it fell out after trayvon was shot and as Zimmerman was getting up, perhaps when he was returning the gun to it's holster. I don't have a pistol, but that's happened with my hunting rifle. I pull back the bolt, and my spent casing fails to fully eject, so the next bullet can't get up completely.
Kasumi of Vientown
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Kasumi, 2+2=4. Except when adding numbers based on what you've said. Somewhere along the lines, we've got a conflicting bit of information. I'd like some clarification.
You state we have a situation where Zimmerman and Martin were grappling over the firearm, leading to a FTE(Failure to Eject), which makes sense. What causes the firearm to cycle (chamber another round) is the force of the explosion forcing the slide back, and then it will spring forward, forcing another cartridge into the barrel. However, you stated in a much earlier post that the police found the spent round on the ground nearby.
Now, while it is possible to eject a spent round and not chamber another, that would be a mechanical defect more than what you're describing.
Also, if Martin had his hands on the slide when the trigger was pulled/pressed/bumped while struggling over the firearm, when the slide goes back on a firearm, it's a violent movement, and would definitely leave marks that are quite visible on the hand.
Before those building the scaffolding go running off to buy more wood and nails, remember that the prosecution, much like the defense, is not going to put this information out.
Prosecution would know damn good and well that wounds to his hands would be pretty damning evidence in support of Zimmerman's case. Likewise, Zimmerman's attorneys know this as well.
And before anyone goes apeshit, no, it won't rip the hide off your hands and expose bone. But it will leave marks that are visible.


I don't own that kind of gun, but conceivably it partially ejected the shell casing, and it fell out after trayvon was shot and as Zimmerman was getting up, perhaps when he was returning the gun to it's holster. I don't have a pistol, but that's happened with my hunting rifle. I pull back the bolt, and my spent casing fails to fully eject, so the next bullet can't get up completely.


Can't happen that way without cycling the slide. Unlike a bolt, which you are describing, a semi-auto is stiff and you cannot leave it in a half open position. It will jam and jam hard, and you have to manually cycle it at that point.
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Kasumi, 2+2=4. Except when adding numbers based on what you've said. Somewhere along the lines, we've got a conflicting bit of information. I'd like some clarification.
You state we have a situation where Zimmerman and Martin were grappling over the firearm, leading to a FTE(Failure to Eject), which makes sense. What causes the firearm to cycle (chamber another round) is the force of the explosion forcing the slide back, and then it will spring forward, forcing another cartridge into the barrel. However, you stated in a much earlier post that the police found the spent round on the ground nearby.
Now, while it is possible to eject a spent round and not chamber another, that would be a mechanical defect more than what you're describing.
Also, if Martin had his hands on the slide when the trigger was pulled/pressed/bumped while struggling over the firearm, when the slide goes back on a firearm, it's a violent movement, and would definitely leave marks that are quite visible on the hand.
Before those building the scaffolding go running off to buy more wood and nails, remember that the prosecution, much like the defense, is not going to put this information out.
Prosecution would know damn good and well that wounds to his hands would be pretty damning evidence in support of Zimmerman's case. Likewise, Zimmerman's attorneys know this as well.
And before anyone goes apeshit, no, it won't rip the hide off your hands and expose bone. But it will leave marks that are visible.


I don't own that kind of gun, but conceivably it partially ejected the shell casing, and it fell out after trayvon was shot and as Zimmerman was getting up, perhaps when he was returning the gun to it's holster. I don't have a pistol, but that's happened with my hunting rifle. I pull back the bolt, and my spent casing fails to fully eject, so the next bullet can't get up completely.


Can't happen that way without cycling the slide. Unlike a bolt, which you are describing, a semi-auto is stiff and you cannot leave it in a half open position. It will jam and jam hard, and you have to manually cycle it at that point.


Well, I'm not an expert on that kind of gun, so I'm not sure about hot the shell casing became empty, but perhaps George Zimmerman thought the gun was loaded and tried to unload it while he was waiting for the cops and pulled out a hot, spent shell casing and dropped it, whether on purpose or on accident. If he wasn't expecting a hot shall-casing to come out, conceivably it could have surprised him and caused him to drop it in the darkness I am not an expert, so that is the only thing I can come up with, but an expert could probably explain it better.
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The Kel Tec PF9 is a poor man's subcompact pistol, in order for them to cycle you need to hold it properly.

Trayvon didn't even necessarily need to touch the slide for it to jam, it's hard to hold a small pistol properly in such a high stress situation and given the flaws of pistols that size it's easy to see how the there could have been a feeding failure resulting in a 300 dollar pistol jamming.
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The Kel Tec PF9 is a poor man's subcompact pistol, in order for them to cycle you need to hold it properly.

Trayvon didn't even necessarily need to touch the slide for it to jam, it's hard to hold a small pistol properly in such a high stress situation and given the flaws of pistols that size it's easy to see how the there could have been a feeding failure resulting in a 300 dollar pistol jamming.


Do you think that it could have a feeding failure and still eject the spent casing during a struggle over the gun?
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The Kel Tec PF9 is a poor man's subcompact pistol, in order for them to cycle you need to hold it properly.

Trayvon didn't even necessarily need to touch the slide for it to jam, it's hard to hold a small pistol properly in such a high stress situation and given the flaws of pistols that size it's easy to see how the there could have been a feeding failure resulting in a 300 dollar pistol jamming.


Do you think that it could have a feeding failure and still eject the spent casing during a struggle over the gun?


Yep, I've had it happen with a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm where it ejected the casing but failed to load a new round, not an actual round partially in the chamber with that pistol though it could easily happen with a more finicky pistol, and I have had a .22 lr jam with the new round stuck in the chamber partially many times.
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The Kel Tec PF9 is a poor man's subcompact pistol, in order for them to cycle you need to hold it properly.

Trayvon didn't even necessarily need to touch the slide for it to jam, it's hard to hold a small pistol properly in such a high stress situation and given the flaws of pistols that size it's easy to see how the there could have been a feeding failure resulting in a 300 dollar pistol jamming.


Do you think that it could have a feeding failure and still eject the spent casing during a struggle over the gun?


Yep, I've had it happen with a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm where it ejected the casing but failed to load a new round, not an actual round partially in the chamber with that pistol though it could easily happen with a more finicky pistol, and I have had a .22 lr jam with the new round stuck in the chamber partially many times.


While that does happen, those situations are usually when the magazine is lower on ammunition and is caused by a weak spring, not struggling over a firearm.
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The Kel Tec PF9 is a poor man's subcompact pistol, in order for them to cycle you need to hold it properly.

Trayvon didn't even necessarily need to touch the slide for it to jam, it's hard to hold a small pistol properly in such a high stress situation and given the flaws of pistols that size it's easy to see how the there could have been a feeding failure resulting in a 300 dollar pistol jamming.


Do you think that it could have a feeding failure and still eject the spent casing during a struggle over the gun?


Yep, I've had it happen with a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm where it ejected the casing but failed to load a new round, not an actual round partially in the chamber with that pistol though it could easily happen with a more finicky pistol, and I have had a .22 lr jam with the new round stuck in the chamber partially many times.


While that does happen, those situations are usually when the magazine is lower on ammunition and is caused by a weak spring, not struggling over a firearm.


Yeah, but it's a cheapo pistol that isn't a high quality one, so that might have played a roll in it not working properly. So I guess that answers your question, huh?
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The Kel Tec PF9 is a poor man's subcompact pistol, in order for them to cycle you need to hold it properly.

Trayvon didn't even necessarily need to touch the slide for it to jam, it's hard to hold a small pistol properly in such a high stress situation and given the flaws of pistols that size it's easy to see how the there could have been a feeding failure resulting in a 300 dollar pistol jamming.


Do you think that it could have a feeding failure and still eject the spent casing during a struggle over the gun?


Yep, I've had it happen with a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm where it ejected the casing but failed to load a new round, not an actual round partially in the chamber with that pistol though it could easily happen with a more finicky pistol, and I have had a .22 lr jam with the new round stuck in the chamber partially many times.


While that does happen, those situations are usually when the magazine is lower on ammunition and is caused by a weak spring, not struggling over a firearm.


The Kel Tec PF9 isn't exactly known for it's reliability even when firing at the range in contrast to a self defense situation. There are many threads about this online and stories about them stove piping.
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Kasumi of Vientown
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The Kel Tec PF9 is a poor man's subcompact pistol, in order for them to cycle you need to hold it properly.

Trayvon didn't even necessarily need to touch the slide for it to jam, it's hard to hold a small pistol properly in such a high stress situation and given the flaws of pistols that size it's easy to see how the there could have been a feeding failure resulting in a 300 dollar pistol jamming.


Do you think that it could have a feeding failure and still eject the spent casing during a struggle over the gun?


Yep, I've had it happen with a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm where it ejected the casing but failed to load a new round, not an actual round partially in the chamber with that pistol though it could easily happen with a more finicky pistol, and I have had a .22 lr jam with the new round stuck in the chamber partially many times.


While that does happen, those situations are usually when the magazine is lower on ammunition and is caused by a weak spring, not struggling over a firearm.


The Kel Tec PF9 isn't exactly known for it's reliability even when firing at the range in contrast to a self defense situation. There are many threads about this online and stories about them stove piping.


Thank you for your contributions there, lol. Eventually I plan to get a concealed weapons permit, but I'll probably get a pistol that is 22 caliber, since the ammo is cheaper, and for self-defense purposes I think it should be sufficient. I'd want to get one that's reliable though, so maybe a Winchester or a Remington.
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Kasumi of Vientown
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The Kel Tec PF9 is a poor man's subcompact pistol, in order for them to cycle you need to hold it properly.

Trayvon didn't even necessarily need to touch the slide for it to jam, it's hard to hold a small pistol properly in such a high stress situation and given the flaws of pistols that size it's easy to see how the there could have been a feeding failure resulting in a 300 dollar pistol jamming.


Do you think that it could have a feeding failure and still eject the spent casing during a struggle over the gun?


Yep, I've had it happen with a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm where it ejected the casing but failed to load a new round, not an actual round partially in the chamber with that pistol though it could easily happen with a more finicky pistol, and I have had a .22 lr jam with the new round stuck in the chamber partially many times.


While that does happen, those situations are usually when the magazine is lower on ammunition and is caused by a weak spring, not struggling over a firearm.


The Kel Tec PF9 isn't exactly known for it's reliability even when firing at the range in contrast to a self defense situation. There are many threads about this online and stories about them stove piping.


One reason I don't own Kel's. Springfields and Colts are my choices when it comes to handguns.
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Kasumi of Vientown
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Kasumi of Vientown
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The Kel Tec PF9 is a poor man's subcompact pistol, in order for them to cycle you need to hold it properly.

Trayvon didn't even necessarily need to touch the slide for it to jam, it's hard to hold a small pistol properly in such a high stress situation and given the flaws of pistols that size it's easy to see how the there could have been a feeding failure resulting in a 300 dollar pistol jamming.


Do you think that it could have a feeding failure and still eject the spent casing during a struggle over the gun?


Yep, I've had it happen with a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm where it ejected the casing but failed to load a new round, not an actual round partially in the chamber with that pistol though it could easily happen with a more finicky pistol, and I have had a .22 lr jam with the new round stuck in the chamber partially many times.


While that does happen, those situations are usually when the magazine is lower on ammunition and is caused by a weak spring, not struggling over a firearm.


The Kel Tec PF9 isn't exactly known for it's reliability even when firing at the range in contrast to a self defense situation. There are many threads about this online and stories about them stove piping.


Thank you for your contributions there, lol. Eventually I plan to get a concealed weapons permit, but I'll probably get a pistol that is 22 caliber, since the ammo is cheaper, and for self-defense purposes I think it should be sufficient. I'd want to get one that's reliable though, so maybe a Winchester or a Remington.


Personally, I wouldn't want to use a .22 lr for self defense because the ammunition is cheaper and I've had a lot of .22 lr fail to fire after being struck with the firing pin. It can and has killed many people but it relies more on shot placement and people who are shot with it generally aren't incapacitated immediately because it doesn't carry the energy needed to produce enough trauma. 9mm is kind of the standard so personally I would want to go with one of those. I've never had a round of 9mm fail to fire, only a feeding problem once or twice but that's not the ammunition's fault. 9mm also has more energy and produces hydrostatic shock when it hits a target.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

I don't mean to come off rude or anything but I don't want you to get hurt if you needed it to defend your life.

There are a lot of different options for small 9mm handguns as well. I've heard the Glock 26 is good and they cost around $400 or so, but the best thing is to try as many as possible and see what suits you and is most reliable.

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