Welcome to Gaia! ::

Keltoi Samurai's avatar

Benevolent Dog

16,350 Points
  • Citizen 200
  • Voter 100
  • Mark Twain 100
AChocolateMouse
frozen_water
Keltoi Samurai
and balance is kinda harder when you've completely eliminated one of the elements you're supposed to balance.
Citation needed.

What exactly is provided in meat that I can't find elsewhere?

Quote:
besides, there are some people that genuinely cannot go vegetarian, due to an inability to process certain non-animal proteins ( though, I fully expect for you to say "that's a lie," since most vegetarian advocates tend to insist "well, they just aren't doing it right, they should try again." )
Citation needed.

Which proteins?


Hi! Vitamin B12 is the most common vitamin that is hard to find in vegetables. it's #1 sources however are lean meats like chicken which are underconsumed in a modern society so many people who DO eat meat aren't getting enough. :3

And while Samurai is wrong in that those proteins can't be digested by humans there is a problem that plants can have trouble providing enough fat and protein for an active diet. The love of my life needs a meat-based diet because he has such a high metabolism that he looses weight when sitting still and shoveling carbs. To gain weight he must work out and build muscle and consume massive amounts of protein and calories every day. To achieve this without eating 12 hours a day he has to consume a meat-based diet.
On another side, many animals can't digest the proteins found in plants, such as obligate carnivores, and some people have legume allergies preventing them from getting proteins through plant based means.


actually, I never said that humans can't, I said some humans can't.

I actually suffered from starvation when my dad went vegan, and I tried to go with him. had a doctor tell me that apparently, I couldn't digest certain substances from non-animal sources ( this was more than a decade ago I was told this, and since it wasn't a deadly allergy, I just took it to mean "I'll need to eat meat," and kinda figured the fine details were a matter for the medical records, y'know? ).

means I could probably go egg-fish-and-cheese vegetarian, but not the full way, or the full vegan.
frozen_water
AChocolateMouse
frozen_water
Keltoi Samurai
and balance is kinda harder when you've completely eliminated one of the elements you're supposed to balance.
Citation needed.

What exactly is provided in meat that I can't find elsewhere?

Quote:
besides, there are some people that genuinely cannot go vegetarian, due to an inability to process certain non-animal proteins ( though, I fully expect for you to say "that's a lie," since most vegetarian advocates tend to insist "well, they just aren't doing it right, they should try again." )
Citation needed.

Which proteins?


Hi! Vitamin B12 is the most common vitamin that is hard to find in vegetables. it's #1 sources however are lean meats like chicken which are underconsumed in a modern society so many people who DO eat meat aren't getting enough. :3

And while Samurai is wrong in that those proteins can't be digested by humans there is a problem that plants can have trouble providing enough fat and protein for an active diet. The love of my life needs a meat-based diet because he has such a high metabolism that he looses weight when sitting still and shoveling carbs. To gain weight he must work out and build muscle and consume massive amounts of protein and calories every day. To achieve this without eating 12 hours a day he has to consume a meat-based diet.
On another side, many animals can't digest the proteins found in plants, such as obligate carnivores, and some people have legume allergies preventing them from getting proteins through plant based means.
I appreciate the post, it's very insightful.

However the point still stands, you don't need meat.

Also from what I understand you can B12 from eggs, yes?
Mr.Samurai you seem to be assuming all those who don't eat meat are vegans, many people abstain from meat but continue to consume animal products such as milk and eggs.


Thank you. And yes, you're correct. Eggs and in fact fish eggs especially are good for getting B12. Most poultry is high in it and in fact many species of waterfowl need lots of B12 themselves, which they get through fish. So there are many animal based by-products that have B12 in it. But a vegan diet requires a supplement and most vegetarian diets do as well.

So you are correct, the human body can typically survive without meat. But it does normally require supplemental vitamins.

Personally I eat a lot of chicken and eggs instead of beef and pork so my levels of B12 are great. :3
Keltoi Samurai's avatar

Benevolent Dog

16,350 Points
  • Citizen 200
  • Voter 100
  • Mark Twain 100
AChocolateMouse
Keltoi Samurai
AChocolateMouse
Keltoi Samurai
kitti kat
no man, rabbit is superior to chicken in every way (except that they don't lay eggs, but commercial eggs don't come from commercial meat chickens anyway)

and thank you. actually, its about time I put new lyrics in my sig, thats been there for a while...


rabbit starvation disagrees with your assumption that rabbit is superior to chicken.

though, there is something to be said for the fact that birdmeats have inherent risks that mammal meats just don't


Rabbit starvation is actually called protein poisioning. And it actually only happens if you eat the meat only. if you eat even a slightly varied diet (Which can come from eating the organs and bones of the rabbit, something most people just don't wanna do, or just eat a flippin' carrot) then you are fine. razz

In every other sense it is one of the healthiest meats. I raise rabbits. They are very low in fat and high in protein. They have less fat then even a chicken does and they grow quickly and multiply well. And they have a by-product of furs.


the pelts are very useful, I won't lie. one of the warmest liners for boots, gloves or winter hats I've found.

but it seems that you're focused, here on a sorta "fat=bad" kick, whereas fats aren't inherently bad, they just need to be consumed in moderation ( the US seems to have a hard time with this: on the one hand, you have people shoveling grease down their gullet like it's going out of style, on the other, you have people who seem to think "if too much fat is bad, then all fat must be bad, so we should cut it all out!" ).

a meat that contains a higher concentration of fat than rabbit, eaten in moderation, would be preferable, since rabbit starvation is about too much protein AND not enough fat


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation

Perhaps you should read this. It's not a matter of fat at all; the science behind it is strictly an overabundance of protein. Also carbohydrates such as those found in veggies and grains become fat in the body, leaving behind and additional need for fat when eating a varied diet.

And fat isn't bad in moderation. But the moment you eat a greasy hamburger you have likely over-consumed fat for the day. And then you need to eat a leaner meal later to balance it out or you need to work it off. A leaner meal can be achieved through eating a meal of rabbit, but not chicken since a meal of chicken has a fair balance of fat. So rabbit in a modern diet becomes very important.


honestly, if we're talking cheeseburgers, one of those could probably set you up with a week's worth of various fats. yeah, one cheeseburger, followed by rabbit as your primary protein for a few days'll do ya.

also, you should probably read your source, there, as even though the opening blurb and the "possible mechanisms" sections go over protein, the "observations" talks about fats almost exclusively.
kitti kat's avatar

Greedy Giver

AChocolateMouse

In every other sense it is one of the healthiest meats. I raise rabbits. They are very low in fat and high in protein. They have less fat then even a chicken does and they grow quickly and multiply well. And they have a by-product of furs.
I raise em too, they also have a higher ratio of unsaturated/saturated fats, so too does most game meats.

and I ******** love da fur emotion_kirakira

these are my preference:
User Image

also I'd like to point out that rabbit s**t is the best fertilizer ever, compare with chicken s**t which is the most toxic s**t ever emotion_puke
40 rabbits vs 4 chickens, guess which stinks more?
kitti kat's avatar

Greedy Giver

frozen_water

However the point still stands, you don't need meat.

ya don't need music either, but then what is there left to live for without such good things in your life????
Keltoi Samurai's avatar

Benevolent Dog

16,350 Points
  • Citizen 200
  • Voter 100
  • Mark Twain 100
frozen_water
AChocolateMouse
frozen_water
Keltoi Samurai
and balance is kinda harder when you've completely eliminated one of the elements you're supposed to balance.
Citation needed.

What exactly is provided in meat that I can't find elsewhere?

Quote:
besides, there are some people that genuinely cannot go vegetarian, due to an inability to process certain non-animal proteins ( though, I fully expect for you to say "that's a lie," since most vegetarian advocates tend to insist "well, they just aren't doing it right, they should try again." )
Citation needed.

Which proteins?


Hi! Vitamin B12 is the most common vitamin that is hard to find in vegetables. it's #1 sources however are lean meats like chicken which are underconsumed in a modern society so many people who DO eat meat aren't getting enough. :3

And while Samurai is wrong in that those proteins can't be digested by humans there is a problem that plants can have trouble providing enough fat and protein for an active diet. The love of my life needs a meat-based diet because he has such a high metabolism that he looses weight when sitting still and shoveling carbs. To gain weight he must work out and build muscle and consume massive amounts of protein and calories every day. To achieve this without eating 12 hours a day he has to consume a meat-based diet.
On another side, many animals can't digest the proteins found in plants, such as obligate carnivores, and some people have legume allergies preventing them from getting proteins through plant based means.
I appreciate the post, it's very insightful.

However the point still stands, you don't need meat.

Also from what I understand you can B12 from eggs, yes?
Mr.Samurai you seem to be assuming all those who don't eat meat are vegans, many people abstain from meat but continue to consume animal products such as milk and eggs.


not all those who don't eat meat, no, but would you believe that there actually IS a Vegan Propaganda arm? they call 'em the PCRM, and they are . . . kinda bizarrely focused on veganism, and in bed with PETA.
Keltoi Samurai
AChocolateMouse
Keltoi Samurai
AChocolateMouse
Keltoi Samurai
kitti kat
no man, rabbit is superior to chicken in every way (except that they don't lay eggs, but commercial eggs don't come from commercial meat chickens anyway)

and thank you. actually, its about time I put new lyrics in my sig, thats been there for a while...


rabbit starvation disagrees with your assumption that rabbit is superior to chicken.

though, there is something to be said for the fact that birdmeats have inherent risks that mammal meats just don't


Rabbit starvation is actually called protein poisioning. And it actually only happens if you eat the meat only. if you eat even a slightly varied diet (Which can come from eating the organs and bones of the rabbit, something most people just don't wanna do, or just eat a flippin' carrot) then you are fine. razz

In every other sense it is one of the healthiest meats. I raise rabbits. They are very low in fat and high in protein. They have less fat then even a chicken does and they grow quickly and multiply well. And they have a by-product of furs.


the pelts are very useful, I won't lie. one of the warmest liners for boots, gloves or winter hats I've found.

but it seems that you're focused, here on a sorta "fat=bad" kick, whereas fats aren't inherently bad, they just need to be consumed in moderation ( the US seems to have a hard time with this: on the one hand, you have people shoveling grease down their gullet like it's going out of style, on the other, you have people who seem to think "if too much fat is bad, then all fat must be bad, so we should cut it all out!" ).

a meat that contains a higher concentration of fat than rabbit, eaten in moderation, would be preferable, since rabbit starvation is about too much protein AND not enough fat


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation

Perhaps you should read this. It's not a matter of fat at all; the science behind it is strictly an overabundance of protein. Also carbohydrates such as those found in veggies and grains become fat in the body, leaving behind and additional need for fat when eating a varied diet.

And fat isn't bad in moderation. But the moment you eat a greasy hamburger you have likely over-consumed fat for the day. And then you need to eat a leaner meal later to balance it out or you need to work it off. A leaner meal can be achieved through eating a meal of rabbit, but not chicken since a meal of chicken has a fair balance of fat. So rabbit in a modern diet becomes very important.


honestly, if we're talking cheeseburgers, one of those could probably set you up with a week's worth of various fats. yeah, one cheeseburger, followed by rabbit as your primary protein for a few days'll do ya.

also, you should probably read your source, there, as even though the opening blurb and the "possible mechanisms" sections go over protein, the "observations" talks about fats almost exclusively.


I did read my source. Please read closer. You'll notice that those blurbs are from very old, the first being from someone who DIED in the 60's, the second being from Charles Darwin... They are severely outdated. That was an era where things like balanced diets didn't exist and food (especially calories) was still something people treasured. People didn't know that plant matter was sugars and sugars turned into fat in the body. Vegan/vegetarian diets didn't exist. They say fats and oils as the only source of fats and oils.

The only hard science in the wiki article is that stating that the kidneys cannot handle the urea created by breaking down protein in sufficient quantities for protein to be a sole calorie source.
kitti kat
AChocolateMouse

In every other sense it is one of the healthiest meats. I raise rabbits. They are very low in fat and high in protein. They have less fat then even a chicken does and they grow quickly and multiply well. And they have a by-product of furs.
I raise em too, they also have a higher ratio of unsaturated/saturated fats, so too does most game meats.

and I ******** love da fur emotion_kirakira

these are my preference:
User Image

also I'd like to point out that rabbit s**t is the best fertilizer ever, compare with chicken s**t which is the most toxic s**t ever emotion_puke
40 rabbits vs 4 chickens, guess which stinks more?


I have NZW rabbits. And I am sad, one of my does failed to cover her newborn kits in the nest when she birthed them last night and they froze. D:

But rabbit manure is great fertilizer. And a rabbit's natural diet - grass - is stupid easy to come by. Chicken manure CAN be good but only once it's been aged and had some carbon added to balance the nitrogen and ammonia.
FlySammyJ's avatar

Liberal Dabbler

Keltoi Samurai

right, but combining meat with another source of fat is both counter-intuitive, and adding additional steps when it would just be easier to choose a meat that also supplied the necessary fats.


Really, it would be more graceful for you to admit you didn't really know what you were talking about. I use olive oil or bacon grease when I cook almost all wild meat, as it tends to be be lean. There is no "extra work" involved, that's just silly. Especially considering the lengths I go to making supper (I'm a foodie). Even desiring to be able to obtain all of your nutrition from one organism is silly. You're defending your point when you should bow out.
frozen_water's avatar

Aged Gaian

11,400 Points
  • 50 Wins 150
  • Crack Shot 50
  • Forum Regular 100
Keltoi Samurai
frozen_water
However the point still stands, you don't need meat.

Also from what I understand you can B12 from eggs, yes?
Mr.Samurai you seem to be assuming all those who don't eat meat are vegans, many people abstain from meat but continue to consume animal products such as milk and eggs.


not all those who don't eat meat, no, but would you believe that there actually IS a Vegan Propaganda arm? they call 'em the PCRM, and they are . . . kinda bizarrely focused on veganism, and in bed with PETA.
How is the existence of Vegan propaganda related to whether or not I need one needs to eat meat?
FlySammyJ
Keltoi Samurai

right, but combining meat with another source of fat is both counter-intuitive, and adding additional steps when it would just be easier to choose a meat that also supplied the necessary fats.


Really, it would be more graceful for you to admit you didn't really know what you were talking about. I use olive oil or bacon grease when I cook almost all wild meat, as it tends to be be lean. There is no "extra work" involved, that's just silly. Especially considering the lengths I go to making supper (I'm a foodie). Even desiring to be able to obtain all of your nutrition from one organism is silly. You're defending your point when you should bow out.


Actually, I use olive oil when cooking almost anything TBH. razz Even though chicken has "enough" fat I put it in the pan to keep it from sticking. That alone, is in fact, enough to counter any rabbit starvation.
frozen_water
Keltoi Samurai
frozen_water
However the point still stands, you don't need meat.

Also from what I understand you can B12 from eggs, yes?
Mr.Samurai you seem to be assuming all those who don't eat meat are vegans, many people abstain from meat but continue to consume animal products such as milk and eggs.


not all those who don't eat meat, no, but would you believe that there actually IS a Vegan Propaganda arm? they call 'em the PCRM, and they are . . . kinda bizarrely focused on veganism, and in bed with PETA.
How is the existence of Vegan propaganda related to whether or not I need one needs to eat meat?


I believe the point that was trying to be made was that many vegans spread the idea that meatless is the only way to go and are very abusive about it. And that frequently such statements are made solely as more propaganda to encourage the political cause. This is why I had to put up the rules I did at the beginning of the topic.
frozen_water's avatar

Aged Gaian

11,400 Points
  • 50 Wins 150
  • Crack Shot 50
  • Forum Regular 100
AChocolateMouse
frozen_water
Keltoi Samurai
frozen_water
However the point still stands, you don't need meat.

Also from what I understand you can B12 from eggs, yes?
Mr.Samurai you seem to be assuming all those who don't eat meat are vegans, many people abstain from meat but continue to consume animal products such as milk and eggs.


not all those who don't eat meat, no, but would you believe that there actually IS a Vegan Propaganda arm? they call 'em the PCRM, and they are . . . kinda bizarrely focused on veganism, and in bed with PETA.
How is the existence of Vegan propaganda related to whether or not I need one needs to eat meat?


I believe the point that was trying to be made was that many vegans spread the idea that meatless is the only way to go and are very abusive about it. And that frequently such statements are made solely as more propaganda to encourage the political cause. This is why I had to put up the rules I did at the beginning of the topic.
To be honest, I figure his point is such, I'm hoping he'll come to the realization that Vegan propaganda does not negate the fact that you still just don't need meat to live.
Keltoi Samurai's avatar

Benevolent Dog

16,350 Points
  • Citizen 200
  • Voter 100
  • Mark Twain 100
frozen_water
AChocolateMouse
frozen_water
Keltoi Samurai
frozen_water
However the point still stands, you don't need meat.

Also from what I understand you can B12 from eggs, yes?
Mr.Samurai you seem to be assuming all those who don't eat meat are vegans, many people abstain from meat but continue to consume animal products such as milk and eggs.


not all those who don't eat meat, no, but would you believe that there actually IS a Vegan Propaganda arm? they call 'em the PCRM, and they are . . . kinda bizarrely focused on veganism, and in bed with PETA.
How is the existence of Vegan propaganda related to whether or not I need one needs to eat meat?


I believe the point that was trying to be made was that many vegans spread the idea that meatless is the only way to go and are very abusive about it. And that frequently such statements are made solely as more propaganda to encourage the political cause. This is why I had to put up the rules I did at the beginning of the topic.
To be honest, I figure his point is such, I'm hoping he'll come to the realization that Vegan propaganda does not negate the fact that you still just don't need meat to live.


not everyone does, but again, some people actually do, for reasons of allergies or inability to absorb certain things from non-animal sources.
kitti kat's avatar

Greedy Giver

AChocolateMouse
kitti kat
AChocolateMouse

In every other sense it is one of the healthiest meats. I raise rabbits. They are very low in fat and high in protein. They have less fat then even a chicken does and they grow quickly and multiply well. And they have a by-product of furs.
I raise em too, they also have a higher ratio of unsaturated/saturated fats, so too does most game meats.

and I ******** love da fur emotion_kirakira

these are my preference:

also I'd like to point out that rabbit s**t is the best fertilizer ever, compare with chicken s**t which is the most toxic s**t ever emotion_puke
40 rabbits vs 4 chickens, guess which stinks more?


I have NZW rabbits. And I am sad, one of my does failed to cover her newborn kits in the nest when she birthed them last night and they froze. D:

But rabbit manure is great fertilizer. And a rabbit's natural diet - grass - is stupid easy to come by. Chicken manure CAN be good but only once it's been aged and had some carbon added to balance the nitrogen and ammonia.

aww, that happened to me earlier this year too, I think some does just don't wanna have a litter at certain times. When I tried to breed the same doe around the same time last year (early winter) she just didn't have them at all sad I dunno if they just didn't take or if she had them prematurely, I DO know that my buck did his job lol

I breed my chins with an agouti flemish-NZ mutt line, hybrid vigor and all, whilst preserving their unique fur color (even though the babies aren't technically chinchilla fur type, it looks like similar which is good enough for me)

Quick Reply

Submit
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games