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My choices for food are based on only 1 thing. Taste. If I don't like it, I don't care if it promises to give me super-human strength, I ain't touching it.
frozen_water
AChocolateMouse
I'm done discussing this with you.

I did not miss whole points, I read every bit of your rant, I pulled out the main points and addressed them, just because something wasn't quoted doesn't mean it wasn't taken into account, but it would have been impossible to hold a coherent discussion leaving in that wall of text you continually produce, you'd be served well by learning to be concise.

You keep acting as if you've proven points you've in no way proven, (your personal experiences and unsubstantiated theories as to how scenarios would play out do not constitute proof) and seem to be under the impression that just because you don't personally agree with an opinion an opposing one holds no merit.

You also don't understand the terms being discussed, you certainly don't understand what Utilitarianism is, nor do you understand what circular reasoning is. There is nothing to be gained for either one of us as you clearly have no intention of actually addressing the points I bring up (as you have failed to do so thus far, you just produce a massive text wall that repeats the same points you made previously without actually responding to the points I was nice enough to pull out in a clear and concise way) and sorting through your posts has become more of a hassle than it's worth.

If you'd like an actual discussion you need to actually listen to others ideas and address them instead of attempting to smother them with your own bias.


I am afraid I feel the same way about all of your arguments.

I have openly said, since we can't see the future, I have no proof that scenarios WILL play out the way they will. I have also said that all of my conjecture was based off of past human behavior... The rise in meat consumption and industrialized farming show clearly that humans tend to be selfish in raising their food (proven, I can drop links if you need an evolutionary biology lesson) and will likely want to consume more eggs and dairy in a vegetarian diet. These foods are programmed to taste good to us because of high fat and protein levels and we eat more of these in our modern high-stress environment (also proven and again I can drop a similar link for this if you need). And that this is just the way the world tends to work right now and will likely work in the future. You have given no reason whatsoever for your theories and have simply taken my theories and demanded proof (which I have said I have none beyond the above conjecture) and then asked why it couldn't be another way. Which it could be another way (another thing I acknowledged). Someday the world may be a sunny, shiny place free of intentional death. But there is exactly as much proof for that theory as all of mine and you haven't even shown solid past events to support it.

My idea that vegetarianism is not sound for health or ecological purposes is grounded in fact. I layed out the studies that support this earlier in the thread. It requires more space or unsustainable chemicals to feed a vegan/vegetarian diet than to feed a sustainable omnivore (both of which are equally healthy diets). And a vegetarian diet favors the destruction of male animals (as non-producing and is currently shown in our dairy/egg industries), requires more deforestation than an omnivore diet, and only therefore only holds any moral superiority if you presume that death is a detriment beyond the effect left behind on the living. I have explained this very thoroughly and you have offered no logic to oppose it. You have only said that to a utilitarian standpoint death is a detriment and immoral.

But I am not a utilitarian. And neither is the rest of the world or factory farming would already not exist. And I do not believe a society based on this would be successful since it hasn't thus far. (Again, could be but you have no proof nor past events to show it.) So while it may make perfect sense from your own personal beliefs, it does not to anyone who does not share your beliefs.

And I was naturally not arguing from a utilitarian point of view. I am not a utilitarian. I made no claim I ever was arguing from that standpoint, only you ever did. If the requirement for this debate was to make a utilitarian anti-death argument AGAINST vegetarianism then of course I would have refused. There is no way to make that argument without violating the whole basis for the debate. But from most standpoints I have shown it's not morally or ecologically sound to be a vegetarian. You have simply stated to my every attempt to prove this that I am wrong because that's not utilitarian in your opinion.
Which is what I was referring to as being circular. I say "I believe death is not detrimental and therefore being vegetarian is not in the best moral interest of anyone because of male animal deaths, poor conditions for dairy/egg animals and greater deforestation" and you say "Death is detrimental so yes it is moral." I say "That's a personal opinion. Without that opinion it lacks moral ground" so you say "Death is bad so it still holds."? That's very circular. And it does just what you accuse me of; not responding to the overarching debate... Is being vegetarian sound from a broadly moral or ecological standpoint? None of your responses have actually addressed that beyond the idea of death... A concept that is strictly personal in nature.

I am not sure where I have NOT refuted any solid logic that you have provided. And I'm really disappointed that you feel that I haven't been responding adequately. I could add more scientific references for clear social factual behavior... But I was pretty sure those were clear and easy to find on your own through a quick google search or a basic biology and sociology education.

So I support your idea to end this debate, since from my perspective you have done the exact same thing you accuse me of. I'm sorry that we disagree so thoroughly and this ended on such a poor note.
Suicidesoldier#1
AChocolateMouse
Suicidesoldier#1
Riviera de la Mancha


Hey hey. Both of you chill out. Respectful discussion only please, no name calling. It's on the first page.

You're allowed to disagree with each other but this is a little far and has no basis in the topic. If you need to get all pissy at each other that's what PMs are for, please. This is not a place to hash out personal disagreements.


He's the one who got all crazy and attacked me D:

I'm trying to be nice about it. xp


Why he would attack me in a food thread, idk.

Probs because he still can't refute my argument; just don't worry about it, a lot of ED'ers are just crazy.


Regardless, you were feeding the troll. If something in this thread upsets you enough that you would make a disrespectful post I would ask you to step away from the computer and come back when you're capable of making a more responsible post.

Anyhow, I hope that settles the whole thing. Next time just take it to a PM if you feel the need to respond.
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

Fanatical Zealot

AChocolateMouse
Suicidesoldier#1
AChocolateMouse
Suicidesoldier#1
Riviera de la Mancha


Hey hey. Both of you chill out. Respectful discussion only please, no name calling. It's on the first page.

You're allowed to disagree with each other but this is a little far and has no basis in the topic. If you need to get all pissy at each other that's what PMs are for, please. This is not a place to hash out personal disagreements.


He's the one who got all crazy and attacked me D:

I'm trying to be nice about it. xp


Why he would attack me in a food thread, idk.

Probs because he still can't refute my argument; just don't worry about it, a lot of ED'ers are just crazy.


Regardless, you were feeding the troll. If something in this thread upsets you enough that you would make a disrespectful post I would ask you to step away from the computer and come back when you're capable of making a more responsible post.

Anyhow, I hope that settles the whole thing. Next time just take it to a PM if you feel the need to respond.


Yeah but this is a food thread.

I thought I was supposed to feed them D:


Hehe. ninja

Also your point on manure being the number one form of fertilizer is also a good point. xp
black_wing_angel
My choices for food are based on only 1 thing. Taste. If I don't like it, I don't care if it promises to give me super-human strength, I ain't touching it.

Stuff grows on you if you give it some time though.

Like, for the longest time, I had to force myself to eat toasted nori. After some time though, I grew to love the taste of it.
Suicidesoldier#1
AChocolateMouse
Suicidesoldier#1
AChocolateMouse
Suicidesoldier#1
Riviera de la Mancha


Hey hey. Both of you chill out. Respectful discussion only please, no name calling. It's on the first page.

You're allowed to disagree with each other but this is a little far and has no basis in the topic. If you need to get all pissy at each other that's what PMs are for, please. This is not a place to hash out personal disagreements.


He's the one who got all crazy and attacked me D:

I'm trying to be nice about it. xp


Why he would attack me in a food thread, idk.

Probs because he still can't refute my argument; just don't worry about it, a lot of ED'ers are just crazy.


Regardless, you were feeding the troll. If something in this thread upsets you enough that you would make a disrespectful post I would ask you to step away from the computer and come back when you're capable of making a more responsible post.

Anyhow, I hope that settles the whole thing. Next time just take it to a PM if you feel the need to respond.


Yeah but this is a food thread.

I thought I was supposed to feed them D:


Hehe. ninja

Also your point on manure being the number one form of fertilizer is also a good point. xp


Harhar. razz

And thank you. Aged cow manure is an all-organic renewable fertilizer that has the best balance of carbon to nitrogen for growing crops. There is nothing else in the world that compares! I will be using it in my own garden beds this spring.
Riviera de la Mancha
black_wing_angel
My choices for food are based on only 1 thing. Taste. If I don't like it, I don't care if it promises to give me super-human strength, I ain't touching it.

Stuff grows on you if you give it some time though.

Like, for the longest time, I had to force myself to eat toasted nori. After some time though, I grew to love the taste of it.


That is very true. The same thing happened with my boyfriend and cheeses. Now there are some cheeses he likes more than anything.

At the same time I have been trying to like onions for 5 years now and I put them in just about everything but they still taste like the devil to me. XP
AChocolateMouse
Riviera de la Mancha
black_wing_angel
My choices for food are based on only 1 thing. Taste. If I don't like it, I don't care if it promises to give me super-human strength, I ain't touching it.

Stuff grows on you if you give it some time though.

Like, for the longest time, I had to force myself to eat toasted nori. After some time though, I grew to love the taste of it.


That is very true. The same thing happened with my boyfriend and cheeses. Now there are some cheeses he likes more than anything.

At the same time I have been trying to like onions for 5 years now and I put them in just about everything but they still taste like the devil to me. XP

Yeah, unless you are talking Vidalia onions and not heirloom types, most grocery store ones have a strong bite to them.

You can really mellow their taste and make them sweet if you grill them in some olive oil. Just oil up the pan, get it warm, toss diced onions in and let them cook on low to medium heat for like 10 minutes. Once grilled, they go on just about anything.
Riviera de la Mancha

Yeah, unless you are talking Vidalia onions and not heirloom types, most grocery store ones have a strong bite to them.

You can really mellow their taste and make them sweet if you grill them in some olive oil. Just oil up the pan, get it warm, toss diced onions in and let them cook on low to medium heat for like 10 minutes. Once grilled, they go on just about anything.


Oh trust me; I am a foodie. Food is important to me and I cook all sorts of things different ways. I have tried like 15 different onion varieties in as many different ways as you can count. I can't eat any of them unless they are cooked with other things to the point that they are nearly flavorless. :< Otherwise I bite into one and just flip out from the gross. So I can only eat onions in like curries or over-cooked in stir frys. I do like cooking with onions, just not eating them.
Keltoi Samurai
there's also a reason that vegetarians tend toward the unhealthy-looking, and are a relatively recent phenomenon.


Vegetarianism isnt a new phenomenon, many Hindus, Jains and Buddhists in India wrote about the idea of Ahimsa or "non-violence." Plus people in many poor country's, both in the past and today, eat plant based diets alot of the time due to meat being more expensive.
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AChocolateMouse
Your Food

A discussion thread


Welcome to my discussion thread! Most people on the internet call me Mouse.
I am 21 and live in Ohio. I am a foodie and I run a small urban farm out of my back yard. I am also an animal welfare activist and am always on the lookout for a way to improve the lives of animals.

I would like this thread to be a place for people to discuss the subject of our food in modern america. I would really like this to be an ongoing topic that anyone can pop in and post at forever.

I am really interested in people's food choices and why they make them, especially from a moral and social standpoint. Personally I feel strongly that humans are omnivores and as such I eat meat. But part of being an animal lover calls for me to want my food to be humanely raised. In addition I want to reduce my impact on the environment. As such I try to source my food from chemical-free, humane, sustainable sources. Around where I live this is hard so I have started raising my own foods, even meats, in my back yard in the most sustainable ways I can.

Please come in to discuss this topic and the ones related to it such as factory farming, animal welfare VS animal rights legislation, organic growing, GMOs... I want to hear what you eat and why and to discuss with you your food choices. And if you have never thought about what you eat that much before, I hope to make you start!
Start by dissolving the FDA and the USDA.
Psychosomatic Dinosaur
Keltoi Samurai
there's also a reason that vegetarians tend toward the unhealthy-looking, and are a relatively recent phenomenon.


Vegetarianism isnt a new phenomenon, many Hindus, Jains and Buddhists in India wrote about the idea of Ahimsa or "non-violence." Plus people in many poor country's, both in the past and today, eat plant based diets alot of the time due to meat being more expensive.


Yeah, recent is a relative term. It's been around for a good 3000 years. But meat eating goes back 10,000 and dairy also "only" goes back 3000. Vegetarianism is a very legitimate diet for health reasons when done correctly.
Kozumuda
Start by dissolving the FDA and the USDA.


Oh, I wish. That would be awesome. But you could probably get away with just CHANGING these groups so that the directors aren't former board members of major GMO agriculture like Monsanto and making them a true watchdog group that preforms independent studies rather than reviews the studies companies provide.
AChocolateMouse
Psychosomatic Dinosaur
Keltoi Samurai
there's also a reason that vegetarians tend toward the unhealthy-looking, and are a relatively recent phenomenon.


Vegetarianism isnt a new phenomenon, many Hindus, Jains and Buddhists in India wrote about the idea of Ahimsa or "non-violence." Plus people in many poor country's, both in the past and today, eat plant based diets alot of the time due to meat being more expensive.


Yeah, recent is a relative term. It's been around for a good 3000 years. But meat eating goes back 10,000 and dairy also "only" goes back 3000. Vegetarianism is a very legitimate diet for health reasons when done correctly.


Actually fossil evidence indicates that early man ate a more plant based diet that this whole "man as hunter" theory suggests. I would find the scientific papers I read for you but its late here, I think it was by a Sussman or something along those lines
Kozumuda
AChocolateMouse
Your Food

A discussion thread


Welcome to my discussion thread! Most people on the internet call me Mouse.
I am 21 and live in Ohio. I am a foodie and I run a small urban farm out of my back yard. I am also an animal welfare activist and am always on the lookout for a way to improve the lives of animals.

I would like this thread to be a place for people to discuss the subject of our food in modern america. I would really like this to be an ongoing topic that anyone can pop in and post at forever.

I am really interested in people's food choices and why they make them, especially from a moral and social standpoint. Personally I feel strongly that humans are omnivores and as such I eat meat. But part of being an animal lover calls for me to want my food to be humanely raised. In addition I want to reduce my impact on the environment. As such I try to source my food from chemical-free, humane, sustainable sources. Around where I live this is hard so I have started raising my own foods, even meats, in my back yard in the most sustainable ways I can.

Please come in to discuss this topic and the ones related to it such as factory farming, animal welfare VS animal rights legislation, organic growing, GMOs... I want to hear what you eat and why and to discuss with you your food choices. And if you have never thought about what you eat that much before, I hope to make you start!
Start by dissolving the FDA and the USDA.

Yeah, because books like "The Jungle" totally support this idea. And its not like we just recently had a revelation that a major fast food chain was utilizing pink slime in its beef products.

Yep, if there is one thing recent memory tells us, its that absolutely nothing can go wrong when you eliminate supervisory agencies.

I am actually more of the opinion that, were it doable, the FDA and USDA, when contemplating regulations, would follow the bro rule: If a bro can't say it, then don't allow it to be put into food.

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