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One of the most damaging viewpoints our society has absorbed is our understanding of the role of women. We have a set of guidelines of how women as a group should behave and how they are allowed to be treated by men. This can be plainly seen across all facets of our society, from politics to entertainment.

Take, for example, Michelle Obama, the wife of the current President. The majority of the articles she is featured in discuss her wardrobe choices and accessories worn to public events. The fact that she has been educated at both Princeton and Harvard are never mentioned and her occupation as a lawyer is disregarded so room can be made to remark on how that dress makes her look pudgy. She is a woman of notable achievement and activism and the media focuses on the style of her hair.

Yet Barak Obama, George Bush Jr, and even Stephen Colbert are not part of the fashion pages despite their frequent public appearances. Instead we focus on their achievements and their activities in the political sphere. Don Cherry, a man known for wearing outrageous outfits, is more likely to have what he says analyzed, not what he is wearing.

Obviously there is a problem. Ashley Judd recently spoke out against this form of female objectification in a heart felt article. She is hardly the first, and she won't be the last.

Now, everyone has heard of the oppression of women and the rise of feminism, but one of the positions that is often neglected is the role of men as something other than oppressors. Men are often just as trapped in their own gender performance and the consequences there of as women, and while they are often more materially successful they are usually just as emotionally unsatisfied as women.

One of the aspects of the gender performance of masculinity is the encouragement of competition in the work place as a measure gender suitableness. Men are often pressured to speak about things they would prefer remain private in order to reassert there own gender. They are told to be emotionally reserved, even in the face of tragedy, and are raised with the idea that if they are not number one they aren't worth anything.

So this raises the question, if everyone is unhappy, why are we as a society so trapped in our own gender performances? Why do we not seem to have the ability to acknowledge that while men and women are different, they can still be equal and deserve equal opportunity to prove their ability to perform and deserve equal compensation for those performances? How can we learn to let go of our own societal condition in order to stop being men and women and just start being people?

What do you think?
Reminds me of the adage, "men do, women are." It's bullshit, but it's pretty much truth, unfortunately.

I'd say that opposition to it comes from ascription of high value on the spoils of sticking to gender roles. Men who aren't manly enough largely strive to be that way, even if they hate it, same with women. They don't necessarily want the system to be different, they just want to be the haves instead of the have-nots. Sort of like how poor people don't necessarily want to tweak the current economic system; they just don't want to be poor.
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I assume this comes off as less threatening, but I believe that this doesn't necessarily include the lawfully placed double standards such as percentage of custody cases and domestic violence.
The Living Force
Reminds me of the adage, "men do, women are." It's bullshit, but it's pretty much truth, unfortunately.

I'd say that opposition to it comes from ascription of high value on the spoils of sticking to gender roles. Men who aren't manly enough largely strive to be that way, even if they hate it, same with women. They don't necessarily want the system to be different, they just want to be the haves instead of the have-nots. Sort of like how poor people don't necessarily want to tweak the current economic system; they just don't want to be poor.


Interesting, but I think it is a bit deeper than that. I'm gay but I did not come out until I was in my twenties. One of the issues I still have is when I talk about my future I often refer to the man I am going to marry. I'm not going to marry a man. I don't find them sexually attractive. Yet I still forget and speak about them as though they are apart of my romantic future because I was raised to believe that I should get a husband. My family ingrained an expectation of behavior in me during my formative years that is extremely difficult to over come and I didn't even realize any of this until I came to a point in my life where I could not follow that expectation.

Gender roles are like that. There an ingrained expectation that is societally enforced. Think of the last advertisement you saw that had a woman in it. Think of how she was posed and what the product was. Are they actually connected? Are they overtly sexual? Does she seem to be flirting with the audience?

We are bombarded with these roles and expectations to a point that we don't eve notice, because 'woman are like that.'

The same goes for men and their portrayal. It is a vicious cycle that won't stop until we can recognize it and formulate actions against it.
Phallic Wonderland
I assume this comes off as less threatening, but I believe that this doesn't necessarily include the lawfully placed double standards such as percentage of custody cases and domestic violence.

But it offers a place where we can talk about that without making wide sweeping generalization about genders and how they are the same.
PC Fabulous Troll
The Living Force
Reminds me of the adage, "men do, women are." It's bullshit, but it's pretty much truth, unfortunately.

I'd say that opposition to it comes from ascription of high value on the spoils of sticking to gender roles. Men who aren't manly enough largely strive to be that way, even if they hate it, same with women. They don't necessarily want the system to be different, they just want to be the haves instead of the have-nots. Sort of like how poor people don't necessarily want to tweak the current economic system; they just don't want to be poor.


Interesting, but I think it is a bit deeper than that. I'm gay but I did not come out until I was in my twenties. One of the issues I still have is when I talk about my future I often refer to the man I am going to marry. I'm not going to marry a man. I don't find them sexually attractive. Yet I still forget and speak about them as though they are apart of my romantic future because I was raised to believe that I should get a husband. My family ingrained an expectation of behavior in me during my formative years that is extremely difficult to over come and I didn't even realize any of this until I came to a point in my life where I could not follow that expectation.

Gender roles are like that. There an ingrained expectation that is societally enforced. Think of the last advertisement you saw that had a woman in it. Think of how she was posed and what the product was. Are they actually connected? Are they overtly sexual? Does she seem to be flirting with the audience?

We are bombarded with these roles and expectations to a point that we don't eve notice, because 'woman are like that.'

The same goes for men and their portrayal. It is a vicious cycle that won't stop until we can recognize it and formulate actions against it.
S'what I was trying to get at. 3nodding

And c'mon PC, you know me. You know I got thiiiiiiis.
The Living Force
PC Fabulous Troll
The Living Force
Reminds me of the adage, "men do, women are." It's bullshit, but it's pretty much truth, unfortunately.

I'd say that opposition to it comes from ascription of high value on the spoils of sticking to gender roles. Men who aren't manly enough largely strive to be that way, even if they hate it, same with women. They don't necessarily want the system to be different, they just want to be the haves instead of the have-nots. Sort of like how poor people don't necessarily want to tweak the current economic system; they just don't want to be poor.


Interesting, but I think it is a bit deeper than that. I'm gay but I did not come out until I was in my twenties. One of the issues I still have is when I talk about my future I often refer to the man I am going to marry. I'm not going to marry a man. I don't find them sexually attractive. Yet I still forget and speak about them as though they are apart of my romantic future because I was raised to believe that I should get a husband. My family ingrained an expectation of behavior in me during my formative years that is extremely difficult to over come and I didn't even realize any of this until I came to a point in my life where I could not follow that expectation.

Gender roles are like that. There an ingrained expectation that is societally enforced. Think of the last advertisement you saw that had a woman in it. Think of how she was posed and what the product was. Are they actually connected? Are they overtly sexual? Does she seem to be flirting with the audience?

We are bombarded with these roles and expectations to a point that we don't eve notice, because 'woman are like that.'

The same goes for men and their portrayal. It is a vicious cycle that won't stop until we can recognize it and formulate actions against it.
S'what I was trying to get at. 3nodding

And c'mon PC, you know me. You know I got thiiiiiiis.

I know, we're tight. You may have missed it but Phallic Wonderland challenged me to show her how it is done.

So I did.

So that is what this is, which is why the responses are all going to be awesomely long winded and properly informed. Because that is how I tr- roll. that is how I roll. >.>
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PC Fabulous Troll
Phallic Wonderland
I assume this comes off as less threatening, but I believe that this doesn't necessarily include the lawfully placed double standards such as percentage of custody cases and domestic violence.

But it offers a place where we can talk about that without making wide sweeping generalization about genders and how they are the same.


*sigh* I don't think my thread was bad, but I am renowned as having a hard time comprehending what a sentence means when all the words are understandable. Besides, women dun me wrong. And I feel that sometimes things are taken out on all men in the name of all women, even though most problems are pretty evenly scaled, such as women wanting a more flexible job while men take that second or third shift, as well as the multiple studies that women more frequently abuse their men, even though the few times the man is the single perpetrator he has the ability to cause more damage, and I'm not even counting those bad relationships when they BOTH go to blows. I just can wrap my head around the idea that women aren't capable of being as or more violent than a man. I mean, women are more likely to use objects and throw things. Men just have a rage-haze and go nutty.
PC Fabulous Troll
The Living Force
PC Fabulous Troll
The Living Force
Reminds me of the adage, "men do, women are." It's bullshit, but it's pretty much truth, unfortunately.

I'd say that opposition to it comes from ascription of high value on the spoils of sticking to gender roles. Men who aren't manly enough largely strive to be that way, even if they hate it, same with women. They don't necessarily want the system to be different, they just want to be the haves instead of the have-nots. Sort of like how poor people don't necessarily want to tweak the current economic system; they just don't want to be poor.


Interesting, but I think it is a bit deeper than that. I'm gay but I did not come out until I was in my twenties. One of the issues I still have is when I talk about my future I often refer to the man I am going to marry. I'm not going to marry a man. I don't find them sexually attractive. Yet I still forget and speak about them as though they are apart of my romantic future because I was raised to believe that I should get a husband. My family ingrained an expectation of behavior in me during my formative years that is extremely difficult to over come and I didn't even realize any of this until I came to a point in my life where I could not follow that expectation.

Gender roles are like that. There an ingrained expectation that is societally enforced. Think of the last advertisement you saw that had a woman in it. Think of how she was posed and what the product was. Are they actually connected? Are they overtly sexual? Does she seem to be flirting with the audience?

We are bombarded with these roles and expectations to a point that we don't eve notice, because 'woman are like that.'

The same goes for men and their portrayal. It is a vicious cycle that won't stop until we can recognize it and formulate actions against it.
S'what I was trying to get at. 3nodding

And c'mon PC, you know me. You know I got thiiiiiiis.

I know, we're tight. You may have missed it but Phallic Wonderland challenged me to show her how it is done.

So I did.

So that is what this is, which is why the responses are all going to be awesomely long winded and properly informed. Because that is how I tr- roll. that is how I roll. >.>
Oooooh. Gotcha gotcha. My apologies. redface

I'll try and do my part, too.
Phallic Wonderland
I assume this comes off as less threatening, but I believe that this doesn't necessarily include the lawfully placed double standards such as percentage of custody cases and domestic violence.


You mean that the majority of fought custody battles are rewarded joint custody? Sole custody is extremely difficult to win.
Phallic Wonderland
PC Fabulous Troll
Phallic Wonderland
I assume this comes off as less threatening, but I believe that this doesn't necessarily include the lawfully placed double standards such as percentage of custody cases and domestic violence.

But it offers a place where we can talk about that without making wide sweeping generalization about genders and how they are the same.


*sigh* I don't think my thread was bad, but I am renowned as having a hard time comprehending what a sentence means when all the words are understandable. Besides, women dun me wrong. And I feel that sometimes things are taken out on all men in the name of all women, even though most problems are pretty evenly scaled, such as women wanting a more flexible job while men take that second or third shift, as well as the multiple studies that women more frequently abuse their men, even though the few times the man is the single perpetrator he has the ability to cause more damage, and I'm not even counting those bad relationships when they BOTH go to blows. I just can wrap my head around the idea that women aren't capable of being as or more violent than a man. I mean, women are more likely to use objects and throw things. Men just have a rage-haze and go nutty.


The problems aren't evenly scaled. While men and women are both oppressed, women have the short end of the stick. There is a ton of evidence to prove this. While women and men are both abusive, women are less likely to have the means to escape from an abusive situation. Woman are more likely to suffer from physical violence while men are more likely to be killed as a result of that violence. Women and men have different approaches and until we can acknowledge those there will be no understanding.

I am female. I was raised that if a man ever attacked me I was to fight back with everything I had. Hair pulling, pinching, scratching, punching, it was all preached as acceptable if violence was done against me by a male. My brother was taught that guys have an honor code and that there is a reasonable way to fight. He was also taught that while defending himself from a woman was perfectly reasonable, placing her in intensive care with three hits was not.

The reason for this? The stakes. If I am attacked by a man the assumption is that the attack will likely be a power struggle that is often sexual. The assumption is that if my brother is attacked it is because he was doing something rowdy and an argument got overheated.

So it is not that women are less violent, but that we are often raised to approach physical violence as a life or death scenario instead of a simple aspect of life. This causes the ways in which we are violent to be quite different from the average male. Our reasons for acting out violently also tend to be quite different.
Meroko_Love
Phallic Wonderland
PC Fabulous Troll
Phallic Wonderland
I assume this comes off as less threatening, but I believe that this doesn't necessarily include the lawfully placed double standards such as percentage of custody cases and domestic violence.

But it offers a place where we can talk about that without making wide sweeping generalization about genders and how they are the same.


*sigh* I don't think my thread was bad, but I am renowned as having a hard time comprehending what a sentence means when all the words are understandable. Besides, women dun me wrong. And I feel that sometimes things are taken out on all men in the name of all women, even though most problems are pretty evenly scaled, such as women wanting a more flexible job while men take that second or third shift, as well as the multiple studies that women more frequently abuse their men, even though the few times the man is the single perpetrator he has the ability to cause more damage, and I'm not even counting those bad relationships when they BOTH go to blows. I just can wrap my head around the idea that women aren't capable of being as or more violent than a man. I mean, women are more likely to use objects and throw things. Men just have a rage-haze and go nutty.


In our culture, women tend to use relational aggression more. It's why it's often called "girl bullying" and something that goes unnoticed by most. It's arguably worse than being punched in the face, to be honest.
Girls and women tend to do this because society still sort of discourages them from being angry. Women aren't supposed to show their anger and yell, they're supposed to be kind and caring and sweet or they get called bitches. So many women are never taught how to be assertive and resort to under-the-radar emotional abuse and psychological abuse tactics.
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Meroko_Love
Phallic Wonderland
PC Fabulous Troll
Phallic Wonderland
I assume this comes off as less threatening, but I believe that this doesn't necessarily include the lawfully placed double standards such as percentage of custody cases and domestic violence.

But it offers a place where we can talk about that without making wide sweeping generalization about genders and how they are the same.


*sigh* I don't think my thread was bad, but I am renowned as having a hard time comprehending what a sentence means when all the words are understandable. Besides, women dun me wrong. And I feel that sometimes things are taken out on all men in the name of all women, even though most problems are pretty evenly scaled, such as women wanting a more flexible job while men take that second or third shift, as well as the multiple studies that women more frequently abuse their men, even though the few times the man is the single perpetrator he has the ability to cause more damage, and I'm not even counting those bad relationships when they BOTH go to blows. I just can wrap my head around the idea that women aren't capable of being as or more violent than a man. I mean, women are more likely to use objects and throw things. Men just have a rage-haze and go nutty.


In our culture, women tend to use relational aggression more. It's why it's often called "girl bullying" and something that goes unnoticed by most. It's arguably worse than being punched in the face, to be honest.
Girls and women tend to do this because society still sort of discourages them from being angry. Women aren't supposed to show their anger and yell, they're supposed to be kind and caring and sweet or they get called bitches. So many women are never taught how to be assertive and resort to under-the-radar emotional abuse and psychological abuse tactics.


Well, and physical abuse, but I guess since people assume it's not as bad, it's not really mentioned... which sucks for the dudes taking a beating.

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