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the issue is the leviathan. some call it the bureaucracy.

Point is, it moves slow, and is very big, and unstoppable with tremendous momentum. But,

with careful planning and preparation, it is possible to not get stepped on. The wheels of bureaucracy are quite slow, so if you can at least get past step 1: perception of the problem of Bureaucracy
then you can move on to step 2: getting your bearings of your place in the cosmos.

then you can plan step 3: charm, fight, or flight.

if you have the right connections, you can charm the bureaucratic monster to move in a different direction like a lumbering beast. extremely well connected people can also turn the attention of the beast against particular problems or enemies. That's what Hitler did, what Stalin did, what Mao did, and probably what Putin will do. Conspiracy theorists would say the same about Rothschilds or Reptilian Bloodlines. Point is, you don't have to be a fictional superhero to charm the machine, you just have to be considerably more connected than 99% of the population, which most are not.

that leads us to the next option: fight. this option only tends to work through vicarious means, such as using another machine to destroy the first one. During the revolutionary war, Americans received help from the French against the British. Whatever method of fighting the machine employed, it takes assistance from a powerful organization or sovereign power, which may include extremely well connected or wealthy individuals. Of course, while you don't have to be a billionaire or senator's wife to get these kinds of connections, you still have to be either heavily connected to the military, to the underworld, or otherwise a part of the 1%, which leaves the other 99% unable to utilize this option. but hey, at least this way if your dad is a Mafia Don, you can make a difference, perhaps making an underground rail road or fighting against prohibition.

Finally, the flight option. This option is only useful if you both know your position and the lay of the land, and know that a Bureaucratic Leviathan death machine exists. In other words, step 1 is being Awake and step 2 is being Aware and Awake. See, if you have a steam roller coming from the east, and you run east, you are only going to get flattened faster. If you run west, you are only going to delay the inevitable, get tired, and get flattened when the slow wheels of death catch up to you. If you run north or south, you do not get squashed. That's the analogy to keep in mind, because you have to know which direction to run, or more accurately, how to avoid being in the path of mindless destruction. Once you know what's going on, it takes tremendous effort and resources, depending on how bad things get.

Given enough advanced warning, and carefully preparing, you can escape the juggernaut even if you are one of the 99% with no connections and no influence.
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Hi. Tried to send you a PM and a profile comment, but I am blocked. Happy Birthday!
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You realize that to go against Hitler meant you and likely your whole family would be placed in danger, right? Many people were doing what they had to do.

Only because people let it get that way.
Sack of Jew Guts
Sergeant Pancakebatter
You realize that to go against Hitler meant you and likely your whole family would be placed in danger, right? Many people were doing what they had to do.

Only because people let it get that way.


this. People need to be willing to sacrifice to save their families, but they need to be willing to sacrifice even more to keep their humanity, else, what's the point?
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Dr Dillinger
And in their situation you would have done what exactly?

Having said that, everyone loves Rommel.

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The Desert Fox wasn't a true Nazi he was simply a brilliant battlefield chess player who wanted glory and the best for his country. Hence why he collaborated to kill the egomanical Adolf Hitler who was leading his country to massive blunder.
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Requiem in Mortis
Believe it or not, not every Nazi was evil. A lot of people only joined the party because Hitler seemed like the man Germany needed at the time, and many of them had their "oh, s**t" moment when he began ******** things up. I've actually watched interviews of former concentration camp guards who felt true remorse for what they did.

And the members of the military were not even Nazis- they weren't allowed to join the party. They were literally just doing their jobs, same as the soldiers they were fighting.

Not saying it justifies what they allowed to happen or took part in, but still, not every German was as full of evil as they were bratwurst.
Never really understood why the Nazi regime decided to waste valueable time, effort, manpower and money into exterminating potential conscripts. Why send actual "Aryans" to fight for the country when you could use a bunch of Jews, Poles, Roma and Slavs to do it for you? 2 million able bodied people killed in concentration camps could've been 2 million able bodied soldiers. Hell you could use the children of these "inferior pests" to work in war factories while their parents are off winning ground for Germany.

All you need is some propaganda to either motivate or guilt trip said people into wanting to fight. Something like "You can win the respect of your nobler peers and redeem yourself from the pest you are by becoming the glorious warriors of the fatherland." or something like that.

That just seems logical to me than simply wasting resources to kill them.
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FlamingCanine
Hitler was evil. but he was necessary for Germany to recover. He was the man Germany needed to recover from the hurt the rest of Europe personally put on it, and he taught the western world a lesson on punishing people with war reparations.

The people working under him that weren't on board with pointless murder of people of a different ethnicity went along with it to protect their families. There are tales of people who managed to work the system and do good despite their position.

Stalin was way worse though.
I'm fairly certain a pupil of Lenin or Erwin Rommel could do better.
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FlamingCanine
Hitler was evil. but he was necessary for Germany to recover. He was the man Germany needed to recover from the hurt the rest of Europe personally put on it, and he taught the western world a lesson on punishing people with war reparations.

The people working under him that weren't on board with pointless murder of people of a different ethnicity went along with it to protect their families. There are tales of people who managed to work the system and do good despite their position.

Stalin was way worse though.
I'm fairly certain a pupil of Lenin or Erwin Rommel could do better.
Probably.
Actually I wouldn't base the evil only to Hitler nor to the people who obeyed his commands. I would base the evil to that time and era which Hitler and his companions were living not to the persons whom were living that time. The era they were living in was evil which made people do the evil acts... -This is my philosophic/abstract view
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FlamingCanine
Hitler was evil. but he was necessary for Germany to recover. He was the man Germany needed to recover from the hurt the rest of Europe personally put on it, and he taught the western world a lesson on punishing people with war reparations.

The people working under him that weren't on board with pointless murder of people of a different ethnicity went along with it to protect their families. There are tales of people who managed to work the system and do good despite their position.

Stalin was way worse though.


The fact that you would say "Hitler was evil. but he was necessary for Germany to recover," is truly shocking. I had to reread your comment to fully understand what you were saying. The torture of millions was worth the recovery of one country and to teach other countries a lesson?

Sadly I am completely honest when I say this: you sound like a Nazi. Your entire first paragraph is a list of excuses of the atrocities committed, which were used at the time. I would like to hear your excuses and the advantages for the apartheid, murderers, rapists, Hiroshima, the Japanese-Americans concentration camps, and China's war on Tibet. You must have some good ones!

Because you are God and you can measure how horrible these events are to one another, I would like to ask you something: If someone came in and tortured and slaughtered your family, would that be worse than that same person torturing and killing your neighbors' family? I guess if torturing then murdering your family meant the increased productivity of the nation's economy, then you wouldn't mind. Correct?
Based on your first comment: You would be completely on board for the torture of your family in the name of your country.
Based on your Stalin comment: The harshness of the torture is what matters, not the point that they are even being tortured. Gun shot to the leg is worse ooor chainsaw? "Well, I think chainsaw would be worse, the gun shot is nothing compared to that!" Wait..you aren't asking yourself how could someone even think of doing either?


Actually: I was saying Hitler was a evil douche, but feel free to shove words in my mouth. Evil people can teach other people lessons, even good lessons. For example: Hitler coming to power would of been prevented by simply not trying and succeeding at ruining Post WW1 Germany's economy.

If the German economy hadn't been in the can, Hitler wouldn't of had the unwavering political base he did, because he wouldn't of been able to have done the impossible. Either way, it is better for WW2 to have happened and shown people why you don't try to ruin other countries when it did rather then after the nuclear bomb became common tech for 1st world countries.

All in all, Hitler was a bad person. And his coming to power was the rest of Europe's fault. America didn't want to saddle Germany with overbearing war reparations.


Stalin was indiscriminate. It was worse then Germany. At least if you pretended to be a model citizen in Germany you wouldn't dissapear at night. Or have papers personally signed by your country's leader for your execution.

Hiroshima was a calculated attack. Obviously your knowledge of history isn't that good, or else you wouldn't lump it in with the holocaust or the american-japanese internment camps which while harsh were not on the level of the holocaust. Millions killed on both sides for Operation Downfall(Invasion of Japan main islands), and they only figured a handful of civilian losses in comparison was a better trade.

And no, I don't think Hitler was good. I was not excusing his actions. And your an idiot for thinking so. No, I don't think it's worse or better for someone else to be tortured instead of me. And your condescending know it all teenager attitude is very wearing.

I'll continue to explain things to you, so that you may benefit from not feeling guilty from events you never contributed to. Apparently, You can't ******** read, since I have point blankedly explained the gestapo as "Crimestoppers evil twin" in other posts on this very thread. I don't think it was right. but in a way, it was needed for a lesson to be learned. Otherwise America would be draining Iraq and Afghanistan dry economically, or most of the world will be flattened by nukes.

And why Hitler was neccessary to Germany, despite his mass murdering spree, is that Germany was in such a depression that a basket of money left in the street would of been dumped out and the basket stolen while the money was left behind. It took a wheelbarrow of money to get a small loaf of bread. This is economic emptiness that someone who hasn't been there cannot even begin to comprehend, as I know I cannot. Hitler came and effectively did the impossible by changing the economy into a fully functional nation. If he hadn't, once the Weirmar republic collapsed from debt, the economic wasteland would of spread as the nations that absorbed Germany would have to deal with the problems they actually caused and were now suffering from. This probably would of caused a great deal of crime and violence, and I guess it's okay for other people to get robbed or die of starvation as long as it wasn't your ancestors right?

What was done was wrong. but it caused some good changes. Even Stalin accidentally did good things occasionally. I am glad Hitler lost, but to deny that his actions had any positive effects is also wrong. We've learned from him as a country. Look at crimestoppers. It's like the gestapo for legitimate crimes instead of for political dissidents. Furt

So ******** you very much you fanatical fringe-party piece of s**t. Hey look, I can use ad hominem too, and when you are done throwing your temper tantrum that I said Hitler was a necessary evil, you can reply to this post. if you come back with your holier then thou attitude, and acting like a spoiled teenager who's hardest decision was whether to eat pizza or wings for dinner, I will not even give you the time of day and just block you.


Insults, bravo. You managed to show your intelligence or lack of with the last post. After all, you, my dear sir are here, debating with my sticky bbq winged fingers (no pizza tonight wink My gpa enabled my invitation to an all expense ride at Columbia. Oh contraire, my dear man. Your understanding of the historical perspective relating to World War II, shows your lack of knowledge. However, I must admit that your knowledge is supreme in comparison to the whole of the population. After all, you are here arguing with my teenage superior intellect, here on Gaia. That alone, speaks in and of itself. Bravo, Bravo, Bravo. For an encore, do you plan on extending this to "RuneScape" where you can act out your fantasies. Much better suited for you and fun. There are many 12 year olds that are equally suited to your level of IQ. But thank you for the entertainment. Please except my invitation for pizza sometime. My mother is a very good cook when she isn't teaching Political Science.

If I view our modern history from your perspective, then the major WTC attack was needed, correct? After all, we were then able to go into Iraq for the so called "nuclear weapons" that were reported. We just happened to be able to take the gold and oil and their countries monetary funds. Bush was a necessary evil, like your example of Hitler. Our country was and is in economic straits, so we use our own power to occupy other countries to our betterment. Notice our dealings with all the major oil suppliers are not, were not hurt. After all, Oil is always a reason to start a war for. Bush was able to pad his pockets quite effectively and I hear that new oil line in Afghanistan is going well. When we aren't fighting the "Taliban" then we are training them to fight the Russians. Either way, a grand excuse to ease our own economy. I salute you, my dear man...your ramblings here are sure to change the world. I'm impressed! Oops, it's past my bedtime. I have to get my a** to bed. G'night.
This is a point that has been made a thousand times over. We get it already.
Cloud_Cookie\
FlamingCanine
Cloud_Cookie\
FlamingCanine
Hitler was evil. but he was necessary for Germany to recover. He was the man Germany needed to recover from the hurt the rest of Europe personally put on it, and he taught the western world a lesson on punishing people with war reparations.

The people working under him that weren't on board with pointless murder of people of a different ethnicity went along with it to protect their families. There are tales of people who managed to work the system and do good despite their position.

Stalin was way worse though.


The fact that you would say "Hitler was evil. but he was necessary for Germany to recover," is truly shocking. I had to reread your comment to fully understand what you were saying. The torture of millions was worth the recovery of one country and to teach other countries a lesson?

Sadly I am completely honest when I say this: you sound like a Nazi. Your entire first paragraph is a list of excuses of the atrocities committed, which were used at the time. I would like to hear your excuses and the advantages for the apartheid, murderers, rapists, Hiroshima, the Japanese-Americans concentration camps, and China's war on Tibet. You must have some good ones!

Because you are God and you can measure how horrible these events are to one another, I would like to ask you something: If someone came in and tortured and slaughtered your family, would that be worse than that same person torturing and killing your neighbors' family? I guess if torturing then murdering your family meant the increased productivity of the nation's economy, then you wouldn't mind. Correct?
Based on your first comment: You would be completely on board for the torture of your family in the name of your country.
Based on your Stalin comment: The harshness of the torture is what matters, not the point that they are even being tortured. Gun shot to the leg is worse ooor chainsaw? "Well, I think chainsaw would be worse, the gun shot is nothing compared to that!" Wait..you aren't asking yourself how could someone even think of doing either?


Actually: I was saying Hitler was a evil douche, but feel free to shove words in my mouth. Evil people can teach other people lessons, even good lessons. For example: Hitler coming to power would of been prevented by simply not trying and succeeding at ruining Post WW1 Germany's economy.

If the German economy hadn't been in the can, Hitler wouldn't of had the unwavering political base he did, because he wouldn't of been able to have done the impossible. Either way, it is better for WW2 to have happened and shown people why you don't try to ruin other countries when it did rather then after the nuclear bomb became common tech for 1st world countries.

All in all, Hitler was a bad person. And his coming to power was the rest of Europe's fault. America didn't want to saddle Germany with overbearing war reparations.


Stalin was indiscriminate. It was worse then Germany. At least if you pretended to be a model citizen in Germany you wouldn't dissapear at night. Or have papers personally signed by your country's leader for your execution.

Hiroshima was a calculated attack. Obviously your knowledge of history isn't that good, or else you wouldn't lump it in with the holocaust or the american-japanese internment camps which while harsh were not on the level of the holocaust. Millions killed on both sides for Operation Downfall(Invasion of Japan main islands), and they only figured a handful of civilian losses in comparison was a better trade.

And no, I don't think Hitler was good. I was not excusing his actions. And your an idiot for thinking so. No, I don't think it's worse or better for someone else to be tortured instead of me. And your condescending know it all teenager attitude is very wearing.

I'll continue to explain things to you, so that you may benefit from not feeling guilty from events you never contributed to. Apparently, You can't ******** read, since I have point blankedly explained the gestapo as "Crimestoppers evil twin" in other posts on this very thread. I don't think it was right. but in a way, it was needed for a lesson to be learned. Otherwise America would be draining Iraq and Afghanistan dry economically, or most of the world will be flattened by nukes.

And why Hitler was neccessary to Germany, despite his mass murdering spree, is that Germany was in such a depression that a basket of money left in the street would of been dumped out and the basket stolen while the money was left behind. It took a wheelbarrow of money to get a small loaf of bread. This is economic emptiness that someone who hasn't been there cannot even begin to comprehend, as I know I cannot. Hitler came and effectively did the impossible by changing the economy into a fully functional nation. If he hadn't, once the Weirmar republic collapsed from debt, the economic wasteland would of spread as the nations that absorbed Germany would have to deal with the problems they actually caused and were now suffering from. This probably would of caused a great deal of crime and violence, and I guess it's okay for other people to get robbed or die of starvation as long as it wasn't your ancestors right?

What was done was wrong. but it caused some good changes. Even Stalin accidentally did good things occasionally. I am glad Hitler lost, but to deny that his actions had any positive effects is also wrong. We've learned from him as a country. Look at crimestoppers. It's like the gestapo for legitimate crimes instead of for political dissidents. Furt

So ******** you very much you fanatical fringe-party piece of s**t. Hey look, I can use ad hominem too, and when you are done throwing your temper tantrum that I said Hitler was a necessary evil, you can reply to this post. if you come back with your holier then thou attitude, and acting like a spoiled teenager who's hardest decision was whether to eat pizza or wings for dinner, I will not even give you the time of day and just block you.


Insults, bravo. You managed to show your intelligence or lack of with the last post. After all, you, my dear sir are here, debating with my sticky bbq winged fingers (no pizza tonight wink My gpa enabled my invitation to an all expense ride at Columbia. Oh contraire, my dear man. Your understanding of the historical perspective relating to World War II, shows your lack of knowledge. However, I must admit that your knowledge is supreme in comparison to the whole of the population. After all, you are here arguing with my teenage superior intellect, here on Gaia. That alone, speaks in and of itself. Bravo, Bravo, Bravo. For an encore, do you plan on extending this to "RuneScape" where you can act out your fantasies. Much better suited for you and fun. There are many 12 year olds that are equally suited to your level of IQ. But thank you for the entertainment. Please except my invitation for pizza sometime. My mother is a very good cook when she isn't teaching Political Science.

If I view our modern history from your perspective, then the major WTC attack was needed, correct? After all, we were then able to go into Iraq for the so called "nuclear weapons" that were reported. We just happened to be able to take the gold and oil and their countries monetary funds. Bush was a necessary evil, like your example of Hitler. Our country was and is in economic straits, so we use our own power to occupy other countries to our betterment. Notice our dealings with all the major oil suppliers are not, were not hurt. After all, Oil is always a reason to start a war for. Bush was able to pad his pockets quite effectively and I hear that new oil line in Afghanistan is going well. When we aren't fighting the "Taliban" then we are training them to fight the Russians. Either way, a grand excuse to ease our own economy. I salute you, my dear man...your ramblings here are sure to change the world. I'm impressed! Oops, it's past my bedtime. I have to get my a** to bed. G'night.


Reading this response, I facepalmed so hard.
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Cloud_Cookie\
FlamingCanine
Hitler was evil. but he was necessary for Germany to recover. He was the man Germany needed to recover from the hurt the rest of Europe personally put on it, and he taught the western world a lesson on punishing people with war reparations.

The people working under him that weren't on board with pointless murder of people of a different ethnicity went along with it to protect their families. There are tales of people who managed to work the system and do good despite their position.

Stalin was way worse though.


The fact that you would say "Hitler was evil. but he was necessary for Germany to recover," is truly shocking. I had to reread your comment to fully understand what you were saying. The torture of millions was worth the recovery of one country and to teach other countries a lesson?

Sadly I am completely honest when I say this: you sound like a Nazi. Your entire first paragraph is a list of excuses of the atrocities committed, which were used at the time. I would like to hear your excuses and the advantages for the apartheid, murderers, rapists, Hiroshima, the Japanese-Americans concentration camps, and China's war on Tibet. You must have some good ones!

Because you are God and you can measure how horrible these events are to one another, I would like to ask you something: If someone came in and tortured and slaughtered your family, would that be worse than that same person torturing and killing your neighbors' family? I guess if torturing then murdering your family meant the increased productivity of the nation's economy, then you wouldn't mind. Correct?
Based on your first comment: You would be completely on board for the torture of your family in the name of your country.
Based on your Stalin comment: The harshness of the torture is what matters, not the point that they are even being tortured. Gun shot to the leg is worse ooor chainsaw? "Well, I think chainsaw would be worse, the gun shot is nothing compared to that!" Wait..you aren't asking yourself how could someone even think of doing either?


Actually: I was saying Hitler was a evil douche, but feel free to shove words in my mouth. Evil people can teach other people lessons, even good lessons. For example: Hitler coming to power would of been prevented by simply not trying and succeeding at ruining Post WW1 Germany's economy.

If the German economy hadn't been in the can, Hitler wouldn't of had the unwavering political base he did, because he wouldn't of been able to have done the impossible. Either way, it is better for WW2 to have happened and shown people why you don't try to ruin other countries when it did rather then after the nuclear bomb became common tech for 1st world countries.

All in all, Hitler was a bad person. And his coming to power was the rest of Europe's fault. America didn't want to saddle Germany with overbearing war reparations.


Stalin was indiscriminate. It was worse then Germany. At least if you pretended to be a model citizen in Germany you wouldn't dissapear at night. Or have papers personally signed by your country's leader for your execution.

Hiroshima was a calculated attack. Obviously your knowledge of history isn't that good, or else you wouldn't lump it in with the holocaust or the american-japanese internment camps which while harsh were not on the level of the holocaust. Millions killed on both sides for Operation Downfall(Invasion of Japan main islands), and they only figured a handful of civilian losses in comparison was a better trade.

And no, I don't think Hitler was good. I was not excusing his actions. And your an idiot for thinking so. No, I don't think it's worse or better for someone else to be tortured instead of me. And your condescending know it all teenager attitude is very wearing.

I'll continue to explain things to you, so that you may benefit from not feeling guilty from events you never contributed to. Apparently, You can't ******** read, since I have point blankedly explained the gestapo as "Crimestoppers evil twin" in other posts on this very thread. I don't think it was right. but in a way, it was needed for a lesson to be learned. Otherwise America would be draining Iraq and Afghanistan dry economically, or most of the world will be flattened by nukes.

And why Hitler was neccessary to Germany, despite his mass murdering spree, is that Germany was in such a depression that a basket of money left in the street would of been dumped out and the basket stolen while the money was left behind. It took a wheelbarrow of money to get a small loaf of bread. This is economic emptiness that someone who hasn't been there cannot even begin to comprehend, as I know I cannot. Hitler came and effectively did the impossible by changing the economy into a fully functional nation. If he hadn't, once the Weirmar republic collapsed from debt, the economic wasteland would of spread as the nations that absorbed Germany would have to deal with the problems they actually caused and were now suffering from. This probably would of caused a great deal of crime and violence, and I guess it's okay for other people to get robbed or die of starvation as long as it wasn't your ancestors right?

What was done was wrong. but it caused some good changes. Even Stalin accidentally did good things occasionally. I am glad Hitler lost, but to deny that his actions had any positive effects is also wrong. We've learned from him as a country. Look at crimestoppers. It's like the gestapo for legitimate crimes instead of for political dissidents. Furt

So ******** you very much you fanatical fringe-party piece of s**t. Hey look, I can use ad hominem too, and when you are done throwing your temper tantrum that I said Hitler was a necessary evil, you can reply to this post. if you come back with your holier then thou attitude, and acting like a spoiled teenager who's hardest decision was whether to eat pizza or wings for dinner, I will not even give you the time of day and just block you.


Insults, bravo. You managed to show your intelligence or lack of with the last post. After all, you, my dear sir are here, debating with my sticky bbq winged fingers (no pizza tonight wink My gpa enabled my invitation to an all expense ride at Columbia. Oh contraire, my dear man. Your understanding of the historical perspective relating to World War II, shows your lack of knowledge. However, I must admit that your knowledge is supreme in comparison to the whole of the population. After all, you are here arguing with my teenage superior intellect, here on Gaia. That alone, speaks in and of itself. Bravo, Bravo, Bravo. For an encore, do you plan on extending this to "RuneScape" where you can act out your fantasies. Much better suited for you and fun. There are many 12 year olds that are equally suited to your level of IQ. But thank you for the entertainment. Please except my invitation for pizza sometime. My mother is a very good cook when she isn't teaching Political Science.

If I view our modern history from your perspective, then the major WTC attack was needed, correct? After all, we were then able to go into Iraq for the so called "nuclear weapons" that were reported. We just happened to be able to take the gold and oil and their countries monetary funds. Bush was a necessary evil, like your example of Hitler. Our country was and is in economic straits, so we use our own power to occupy other countries to our betterment. Notice our dealings with all the major oil suppliers are not, were not hurt. After all, Oil is always a reason to start a war for. Bush was able to pad his pockets quite effectively and I hear that new oil line in Afghanistan is going well. When we aren't fighting the "Taliban" then we are training them to fight the Russians. Either way, a grand excuse to ease our own economy. I salute you, my dear man...your ramblings here are sure to change the world. I'm impressed! Oops, it's past my bedtime. I have to get my a** to bed. G'night.


Reading this response, I facepalmed so hard.


You're reply was frankly....not shocking. But I would like to apologize for my personal attacks on you. I do not care if you agree/disagree with me on my last post. I would enjoy more of an intellectual conversation in which we did not insult each other. Related topics such as Durkheim, Marx, and their relative perspectives on this subject are open to discussion, either public or private. On a small scale, your ideas are propaganda for war. "Boosts the economy, blah, blah, blah..." That much is fact. But to win a debate, you do not personally attack someone (which I did), because that is not what a debate should be based on. Not politicians, correct? haha.

I should have expected a rude reply from you, because I had given one myself. An eye for an eye makes the whole world sane, does it not? ....Okay, it doesn't, but it makes each of us feel better lol. Anyways, I do not mean disrespect towards you. What my comments showed was human frustration right after reading your post. Anyways, I try to learn from people. And this will be a learning experience.

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