Yaoi Fan Fiction And Artful Evolution

[Macai]

Heart of the Fallen Angel

This is the ED, not a place for unsupported opinions. If you wish to argue opinions, then please go to GD. In the ED, if you make a claim, you support it with fact. Opinion does not constitute fact.

I did point out some clear criticisms not only in my original post, but in my other posts as well. Do you suggest we simply never discuss matters of subjective nature such as art or philosophy in the ED on the basis that you can't take your graphing calculator out, and define it to a point that it is absolutely certain?

Also, I just looked over the ED guidelines, and all it says is that you must provide something which can be discussed about. I consider the validity and tastefulness of a type of expression to be something worthy of discussion.

Please read the rules and guidelines before trying to quote them to people, it just makes you look stupid.

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Macai

Heart of the Fallen Angel

This is the ED, not a place for unsupported opinions. If you wish to argue opinions, then please go to GD. In the ED, if you make a claim, you support it with fact. Opinion does not constitute fact.

I did point out some clear criticisms not only in my original post, but in my other posts as well. Do you suggest we simply never discuss matters of subjective nature such as art or philosophy in the ED on the basis that you can't take your graphing calculator out, and define it to a point that it is absolutely certain?

Also, I just looked over the ED guidelines, and all it says is that you must provide something which can be discussed about. I consider the validity and tastefulness of a type of expression to be something worthy of discussion.

Please read the rules and guidelines before trying to quote them to people, it just makes you look stupid.

Directly from the ED Rules and posting guidelines thread.

Quote:

Threads asking users simply to give personal hypotheses, with little basis in fact or knowledge of the subject area, are more appropriate for General discussion.

Refrain from using logical fallacies and poor debate methods, as these will frustrate other users and do not enhance the discussion

Now then, as you are using personal experience and opinions as evidence to support your claim in the Extended Discussion (which is made for debating), you are commiting logical fallacies.

And for future reference, please don't PM me just because you feel you made a good counter arguement and I didn't reply immediately. I'm usually on Gaia from work, and can't always respond immediately.

[Macai]

Heart of the Fallen Angel

Quote:

Threads asking users simply to give personal hypotheses, with little basis in fact or knowledge of the subject area, are more appropriate for General discussion.

Refrain from using logical fallacies and poor debate methods, as these will frustrate other users and do not enhance the discussion

Now then, as you are using personal experience and opinions as evidence to support your claim in the Extended Discussion (which is made for debating), you are commiting logical fallacies.

And for future reference, please don't PM me just because you feel you made a good counter arguement and I didn't reply immediately. I'm usually on Gaia from work, and can't always respond immediately.

I bolded the part in that guidelines thread that applies.

I demonstrated quite a bit of knowledge about fanfictions in this thread by pointing out several recurring themes (which actually exist, by the way) that irritate my sense of art. Thank you, bitches.

And for future reference, I will PM you if I feel like it, and if you don't like it, you may block me.

EDIT: Now, do you intend to address my numerous criticisms of fanfiction, or just attack the reality that my opinion is an opinion and not a fact to cover up the fact that you know fanfiction sucks and can't argue in favor of it subjectively?

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Macai

Heart of the Fallen Angel

Quote:

Threads asking users simply to give personal hypotheses, with little basis in fact or knowledge of the subject area, are more appropriate for General discussion.

Refrain from using logical fallacies and poor debate methods, as these will frustrate other users and do not enhance the discussion

Now then, as you are using personal experience and opinions as evidence to support your claim in the Extended Discussion (which is made for debating), you are commiting logical fallacies.

And for future reference, please don't PM me just because you feel you made a good counter arguement and I didn't reply immediately. I'm usually on Gaia from work, and can't always respond immediately.

I bolded the part in that guidelines thread that applies.

I demonstrated quite a bit of knowledge about fanfictions in this thread by pointing out several recurring themes (which actually exist, by the way) that irritate my sense of art. Thank you, bitches.

And for future reference, I will PM you if I feel like it, and if you don't like it, you may block me.

Yet, you're still comitting the same logical fallacies and not providing proof to support your claim when asked, you've also proceeded to use Ad Hominum to attempt to further strengthen your arguement against fanfiction.

Now then, I agree, a lot of fanfiction is really bad, mostly the poorly written ones that are little more then an excuse to pair up characters who have no buisiness being paired together. That said, not all fanfiction is bad (please, you've claimed all fanfiction is bad, PROVE it). Some fanfiction is incredibly well-written and very creative. It's hard to find the good fanfiction among all the crap out there, but it does exist.

And I'm just asking that if you feel the need to PM me because I haven't replied, please wait at least a day, chances are, I'll get back to you before that in the thread....

[Macai]

Heart of the Fallen Angel

Yet, you're still comitting the same logical fallacies and not providing proof to support your claim when asked, you've also proceeded to use Ad Hominum to attempt to further strengthen your arguement against fanfiction.

I'm not committing a logical fallacy at all. I think that fanfiction is intrinsically crap, and will substantiate it subjectively below. Also, an Ad Hominem argument is saying that someone is wrong on the basis that they are an idiot, or something along those lines. I did not argue you were wrong on the basis that you were an idiot, I just out argued your points and punctuated it with an insult.

Heart of the Fallen Angel

Now then, I agree, a lot of fanfiction is really bad, mostly the poorly written ones that are little more then an excuse to pair up characters who have no buisiness being paired together. That said, not all fanfiction is bad (please, you've claimed all fanfiction is bad, PROVE it). Some fanfiction is incredibly well-written and very creative. It's hard to find the good fanfiction among all the crap out there, but it does exist.

Fanfiction is by its very nature bad in my opinion for the following reasons:

1) It's not creative. It does not have the potential for any genuine originality because it is pointedly unoriginal; it either takes characters and uses them in the right way, which makes it unoriginal on the basis that the writer did not use his own character, or it uses the same characters unfaithfully to the canon, which makes it unoriginal on the basis that you can't make up your own name for your essentially new character. Since all fanfiction uses characters from the canon, it is unoriginal, and thereby patently uncreative.

2) It is pretentious. When a fanfic writer "extends the story," it implies that the story was not complete. When a fanfic writer "adds insight to a minor character," it implies that the character should not have been minor. When a fanfic writer "changes situations to 'see' what happens," it implies that the story itself is wrong. Based on the fact that these things apply to most if not all fanfictions, this renders fanfiction as a concept pretentious by its very nature.

Finally,

3) It is meaningless, and dramatically ineffective. Stories are told because they have underlying messages and symbolism. They are not an arbitrary series of events (if it's a good story), and by extending the story beyond its conclusion, changing around character situations, or providing details into things which didn't matter to the original story, you trivialize the original story, and your own, by making the events arbitrary.

These are opinions founded not in fact, but in knowledge. Almost every last fanfiction in existence on some level makes the mistake of using at least one of these significant criticisms. There may be a handful of gems out there, fanfictions worth reading, but when you say "fanfiction," the things I've described really do come with the territory.

Can you tell me the merits of fanfiction, then, or are you just going to scream opinion dropping?easonea

[SKJC]

Macai

The overall quality of your writing has gone down on the basis that your fanfiction is crap because all fanfiction is crap. So you might be a five star writer on everything but your fanfiction, but then you ding your own score up by writing one star crap half the time. Good job.

Okay... Here's a concept for you: People writing because they enjoy it rather than because of someone else's subjective assessment of the finished product. Sometimes, people write a story because they want to write a story, not because it has any deeper meaning or motivation.

It is entirely possible to be original with someone else's characters - the challenge in writing _good_ fanfiction is keeping the characters intact to their canon characterization. A lot of the bad fanfiction on the 'net is bad because it ignores this.

Also: A lot of stories _aren't_ complete in canon. You ever seen Firefly? Even 'complete' canon leaves room for speculation. I've never seen any work of fiction in any medium that covers all possible aspects of its story _and_ backstory.

[Macai]

Shoujo Kakumei J-chan

Okay... Here's a concept for you: People writing because they enjoy it rather than because of someone else's subjective assessment of the finished product. Sometimes, people write a story because they want to write a story, not because it has any deeper meaning or motivation.

I wasn't aware that the fact that some people have no real reason to write outside of the fact that it gets them shits and giggles revokes me of my right to criticize it literally.

Shoujo Kakumei J-chan

It is entirely possible to be original with someone else's characters - the challenge in writing _good_ fanfiction is keeping the characters intact to their canon characterization. A lot of the bad fanfiction on the 'net is bad because it ignores this.

No, it's not possible to be original with someone else's characters. That's like saying possible for a shade of red to be a shade of green. For something to be original, it has to be founded on one's own, new ideas, and not someone else's.

Shoujo Kakumei J-chan

Also: A lot of stories _aren't_ complete in canon. You ever seen Firefly? Even 'complete' canon leaves room for speculation. I've never seen any work of fiction in any medium that covers all possible aspects of its story _and_ backstory.

Are we talking about ones that leave holes, or ones that get their budgets cut before they can actually finish? In the case of the latter, sure, it's not complete, but it still falls under the "pretentious" category by insinuating that you are capable of completing it successfully by writing the fanfiction in the first place.

[Vaveli]

One of the main points of fanfiction is to read/write what you wished had happened in the series. Take Harry potter for example. I HATED how the series ended and how the couples ended up so I read stories where the people I wanted to get together do. It makes me a much happier HP fan biggrin

[Macai]

Vaveli

One of the main points of fanfiction is to read/write what you wished had happened in the series. Take Harry potter for example. I HATED how the series ended and how the couples ended up so I read stories where the people I wanted to get together do. It makes me a much happier HP fan biggrin

If, from a literary perspective, your greatest concern is who hooked up with who, I suggest you read some real literature.

[Vaveli]

Macai

Vaveli

One of the main points of fanfiction is to read/write what you wished had happened in the series. Take Harry potter for example. I HATED how the series ended and how the couples ended up so I read stories where the people I wanted to get together do. It makes me a much happier HP fan biggrin

If, from a literary perspective, your greatest concern is who hooked up with who, I suggest you read some real literature.

Of course not, I was simply using that as an example.

[Macai]

Vaveli

Macai

Vaveli

One of the main points of fanfiction is to read/write what you wished had happened in the series. Take Harry potter for example. I HATED how the series ended and how the couples ended up so I read stories where the people I wanted to get together do. It makes me a much happier HP fan biggrin

If, from a literary perspective, your greatest concern is who hooked up with who, I suggest you read some real literature.

Of course not, I was simply using that as an example.

Still, the point stands. I think writing fanfics to change around who hooks up with who is tasteless garbage.

[Foment_life]

I'm forced to side with the Fanfiction is horrible camp. I have had the misfortune of having friends who read entirely too much fanfiction, enough in fact to ask their friends to read it. I'll admit that my experience has been limited, but what I've read is horrifying. My friend who is, in her graded work, an amazing author, churns out (and reads) absolute drivel when it comes to fanfiction. This drivel is what she happens to find after painstaking hours of searching, not after 10 minutes on ff.net.

I also have to say that if you are trying to be "creative" with a character, make a character, don't "borrow" someone else's character if you fully intend to redevelop them. If you're working with a concept, working within someone else's world, I really don't have a problem with what you're writing. BadLuckNovelist's Poke-people (Please don't take offense, I'm very likely oversimplifying your idea) is hardly fanfiction. It's taking the concept of a video game, and expanding with (to my understanding) new characters. Nowhere did she say that Ash was actually a Pikachu.

So, to summarize, it's not that it's impossible to find a well written piece of fanfiction, it's that there are better ways for you to express your (essentially) new characters. If you have no intentions of following the canon, why are you using characters from it? Writing things like that is asking to be called a hack.

[BadLuckNovelist]

Macai

BadLuckNovelist

Quote:

The fable model of storytelling begins by providing a message, idea or thought, which is to be substantiated throughout or at the end of the story. Examples might include, "Paranoia is a synonym for longevity," "Compromise leads to self loathing," and "The hero is always seen as the villain."

I'm surprised I've never actually heard of the fable model...

Quote:

The metaphor model of storytelling is a little more difficult. You take another piece of literature (or something of the sort), and break it down into key plot events. Then, you write a story that parallels those key plot events, and make clear and tastefully placed references to the original work, either by quoting it at the beginning of chapters or finding clues about it in the book, or whatever.

This one interests me. I think I might try my hand at using it, see where it goes.

Quote:

Finally, I am heavy into the genres of fantasy, science fiction, and horror.

Ah, another one. smile I'm also into those, though I'm less into horror and sci-fi, and more into fantasy.

Forgive me for not quoting your entire post, but I only copied the parts of your post that I'm really replying to: the pertinent parts.

Alright, I agree that I like those two models of storytelling, and I'm going to give you an example of each. Unfortunately, however, they're both horror works, and both are quite morbid.

I'm going to present to you the fable novella "The Hellbound Heart." It is all about the underlying theme of humanity being intrinsically evil, and substantiates it with the literal selling of one's soul to "come back." It also makes a point of saying that the demons (the Cenobites) who play an important role in the novella are not in all actuality evil, and in fact are more like twisted bringers of justice. You can find it on Amazon here.

The metaphor example I'd like to present to you is Baltimore, or the Steadfast Tin Soldier and the Vampire. I'm not going to get too into the plot of Baltimore, but the entire novel is a huge metaphor to another work, the Steadfast Tin Soldier. It can also be found on Amazon here.

(some other people responded, so to prevent myself from double-posting, I will be editing this post to get a response in for them as well)

I'll look into those, thanks. As I said, I have no recollection of the two models being mentioned, even in the Creative Writing course I took in the last school year, so this is something new for me. smile

[soul_less_human]

Well... when the yaoi turns into sasuke x naruto , yet we know the two hate each other.

I know where he's going.

[BadLuckNovelist]

I really do have to respond to this...

Macai

Fanfiction is by its very nature bad in my opinion for the following reasons:

1) It's not creative. It does not have the potential for any genuine originality because it is pointedly unoriginal; it either takes characters and uses them in the right way, which makes it unoriginal on the basis that the writer did not use his own character, or it uses the same characters unfaithfully to the canon, which makes it unoriginal on the basis that you can't make up your own name for your essentially new character. Since all fanfiction uses characters from the canon, it is unoriginal, and thereby patently uncreative.

You can do both, you know. Take a character, make a situation, and have them react to it how they would if that same situation would have happened in the show. This is NOT an either/or situation here.

And, as for the part I bolded, not all fan fiction uses the characters from the canon. I've seen way too many pokemon fanfictions with all original characters (trainer fics anyone?), unless you count the pokemon themselves.

Quote:

2) It is pretentious. When a fanfic writer "extends the story," it implies that the story was not complete. When a fanfic writer "adds insight to a minor character," it implies that the character should not have been minor. When a fanfic writer "changes situations to 'see' what happens," it implies that the story itself is wrong. Based on the fact that these things apply to most if not all fanfictions, this renders fanfiction as a concept pretentious by its very nature.

I have to call bullshit on this, as it is assuming what the writer thinks. Just because I write fanfiction does not mean I think the show is "incomplete," "wrong," or anything of that sort. You may add the implication to the story, but just because you think it has it does not mean it actually does.

Quote:

3) It is meaningless, and dramatically ineffective. Stories are told because they have underlying messages and symbolism. They are not an arbitrary series of events (if it's a good story), and by extending the story beyond its conclusion, changing around character situations, or providing details into things which didn't matter to the original story, you trivialize the original story, and your own, by making the events arbitrary.

No, you do not. Just bcause it is a fan fiction does NOT mean it cannot have an underlying message and/or symbolism. This is making assumptions about the whole crop, which you just can't do unless you read every one of them. They don't all fall under these three definitions, or even under just one. You don't trivialize anything; if you do your homework and actually write it like it should be written, you actually add on to the story. Fill in gaps that were left in the original.

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Can you tell me the merits of fanfiction, then, or are you just going to scream opinion dropping?

I can not tell you the merits, because they are merits to me. Just because I go by them, does not mean they are merits for everyone else, so it is pointless to bring them up.

Alas, I need to go to a class now. You can PM me rather then post here if you want to make sure I get the reply, if you want to continue on.