Yaoi Fan Fiction And Artful Evolution

[DapperSam]

Macai

DapperSam

Lateralus Angel

I've seen alot of what you're talking about in various RPs I've been doing. Alot of people seem to want to put more emphasis onto romantic character interaction than anything else really. And it seems to be more chicks than guys.

I played in a very large online World of Darkness game and had to put up with almost half the female population of the game plotting characters around "how can I get x characters to have sex ^_________^" because they loved Yaoi and fan-fiction.

Seriously, I knew guys that played along with that, but I can't think of any that would make characters just to say "I wonder what sex would be like... AS A CELESTIAL CHOIR INQUISITOR" or whatever. That's a one-trick pony. A really, really annoying one-trick pony.

I'd just make the SL+2 women who try that rape victims, and justify it with the reality that WoD is meant to be horror.

Many of the female players ended up playing rapists, both male and female. It was really kind of disturbing.

Eventually, I just decided that all my of characters really hated rapists and took to killing them off whenever they were too obvious (i.e. all the time because they were obsessed with sex). It did lead to some funny stories, though. More than one rape plot in the course of a week is way, way too many.

[Macai]

DapperSam

Macai

DapperSam

Lateralus Angel

I've seen alot of what you're talking about in various RPs I've been doing. Alot of people seem to want to put more emphasis onto romantic character interaction than anything else really. And it seems to be more chicks than guys.

I played in a very large online World of Darkness game and had to put up with almost half the female population of the game plotting characters around "how can I get x characters to have sex ^_________^" because they loved Yaoi and fan-fiction.

Seriously, I knew guys that played along with that, but I can't think of any that would make characters just to say "I wonder what sex would be like... AS A CELESTIAL CHOIR INQUISITOR" or whatever. That's a one-trick pony. A really, really annoying one-trick pony.

I'd just make the SL+2 women who try that rape victims, and justify it with the reality that WoD is meant to be horror.

Many of the female players ended up playing rapists, both male and female. It was really kind of disturbing.

Eventually, I just decided that all my of characters really hated rapists and took to killing them off whenever they were too obvious (i.e. all the time because they were obsessed with sex). It did lead to some funny stories, though. More than one rape plot in the course of a week is way, way too many.

Were these girls serious, or just being funny!?

[DapperSam]

Macai

DapperSam

Macai

DapperSam

Lateralus Angel

I've seen alot of what you're talking about in various RPs I've been doing. Alot of people seem to want to put more emphasis onto romantic character interaction than anything else really. And it seems to be more chicks than guys.

I played in a very large online World of Darkness game and had to put up with almost half the female population of the game plotting characters around "how can I get x characters to have sex ^_________^" because they loved Yaoi and fan-fiction.

Seriously, I knew guys that played along with that, but I can't think of any that would make characters just to say "I wonder what sex would be like... AS A CELESTIAL CHOIR INQUISITOR" or whatever. That's a one-trick pony. A really, really annoying one-trick pony.

I'd just make the SL+2 women who try that rape victims, and justify it with the reality that WoD is meant to be horror.

Many of the female players ended up playing rapists, both male and female. It was really kind of disturbing.

Eventually, I just decided that all my of characters really hated rapists and took to killing them off whenever they were too obvious (i.e. all the time because they were obsessed with sex). It did lead to some funny stories, though. More than one rape plot in the course of a week is way, way too many.

Were these girls serious, or just being funny!?

They were dead serious. At least once a week they would make a character designed JUST to rape people. They started off as just playing Vampires with Dominate/Presence and Mind mages, which was bad enough, but when they started using Obtenetration or whatever the Lasombra discipline was called for rape it was just disturbing. I won't even get to the Werewolves.

It came to a head eventually when they tried to push that sort of plot on everyone in the game (40+ people, at the time). It pissed off enough people that pretty much everyone put aside their differences just to kill off those characters and then keep killing them off until they got the picture that coerced sex wasn't the focus of the story.

[Captain Verd]

DapperSam

Macai

DapperSam

Macai

DapperSam

Lateralus Angel

I've seen alot of what you're talking about in various RPs I've been doing. Alot of people seem to want to put more emphasis onto romantic character interaction than anything else really. And it seems to be more chicks than guys.

I played in a very large online World of Darkness game and had to put up with almost half the female population of the game plotting characters around "how can I get x characters to have sex ^_________^" because they loved Yaoi and fan-fiction.

Seriously, I knew guys that played along with that, but I can't think of any that would make characters just to say "I wonder what sex would be like... AS A CELESTIAL CHOIR INQUISITOR" or whatever. That's a one-trick pony. A really, really annoying one-trick pony.

I'd just make the SL+2 women who try that rape victims, and justify it with the reality that WoD is meant to be horror.

Many of the female players ended up playing rapists, both male and female. It was really kind of disturbing.

Eventually, I just decided that all my of characters really hated rapists and took to killing them off whenever they were too obvious (i.e. all the time because they were obsessed with sex). It did lead to some funny stories, though. More than one rape plot in the course of a week is way, way too many.

Were these girls serious, or just being funny!?

They were dead serious. At least once a week they would make a character designed JUST to rape people. They started off as just playing Vampires with Dominate/Presence and Mind mages, which was bad enough, but when they started using Obtenetration or whatever the Lasombra discipline was called for rape it was just disturbing. I won't even get to the Werewolves.

It came to a head eventually when they tried to push that sort of plot on everyone in the game (40+ people, at the time). It pissed off enough people that pretty much everyone put aside their differences just to kill off those characters and then keep killing them off until they got the picture that coerced sex wasn't the focus of the story.

This is exactly why I started shying away from alot of roleplaying games. :/

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

KaijutheGreat

Heart of the Fallen Angel

KaijutheGreat

Heart of the Fallen Angel

KaijutheGreat

It's because all fan fiction writers, by definition, are sad, broken people with nothing interesting to say. Yaoi fan fiction writers are simply sad, broken, LONELY people with nothing interesting to say- the lonely makes them fantasize about cartoon men instead of finding real ones, and the sad/ broken/ uninteresting turns it into the steaming pile of dog turds you see before you. Now, you can take it a few steps further:

Why gay men, instead of hetero relationships? Well, because the author's sexual insecurities lead her to feel threatened by m/f intimacy, so she turns to two men in order to head off any lingering anxiety and self-doubt caused by viewing another female achieving intimacy with a male. Or because the author is a gay dude and he likes his men to be cissies.

Why cissies? Because the sort of women who write these things harbor latent bisexual urges. They like their men to be soft, effeminite, nonthreatening, rather than big, brutal, and hairy. In short, they wish their men were women. Or because the author is a gay dude and he's scared a powerful gay figure might threaten his gender role and/or turn straight and beat him up.

...and so on and so forth. But do we really need to go into all of that? No. The short answer: because they're fan fiction writers, why else?

Simple as that. Subject closed.

Wow, the over-generalization of your post completely destroys any point you may have had, which, as I can see, was none to begin with.

There wasn't a single "over-generalization" in it, so unless you're willing to expound upon your crass one-liner, any point you might have had is moot.

Next.

It's simply due to your use of the word all, Let me completely disprove your entire point now.

I am a fanfic writer. I am neither broken, nor sad, and the fact that I work on-air for a radio show (though I can't exactly prove that online, so take it as you will on that one) says that I do indeed have something interesting to say. Need I expand any further, because as I see it, I've already countered your point.

No, it isn't. The word "all", as an absolute statement, is necessary- sadness and brokeness are, as I said, part of the defintion. Definitions are, by their nature, absolute statements, and any object which fits the defintion is that definition. You see? And even if it wasn't strictly necessary (it is) you'd still have accomplished nothing more than semantic hair-splitting: even if you found one counter-example, the fact remains that the rest of the fan ficiton community are sad, broken, and uninteresting. While you'd be "right" in a strictly technical sense, you would completely fail at addressing the real issue.

Now, as for your "counter-example", it's wrong. First of all, it's anecdotal evidence, which doesn't help you. Second, it's nothing more than another symptom of denial- you don't think you're sad and broken, eh?Wow. You don't say. We can already infer you're unoriginal, at the very least.

You are very sad, and you are very broken. You don't believe you are, because nobody ever sees themselves as others do, but I assure you, you are. As for working for an "on-air radio show", if you did work for one then you'd know that almost no one on the radio has anything interesting to say. Whether they're college radio DJs (what they do doesn't qualify as "work" wink , morning show traffic reporters, or syndicated pundits, unless you happen to be Diane Rehm interviewing Gore Vidal (and you're NOT Diane Dehm interviewing Gore Vidal) nothing you have to say is of any interest. But that's if you worked at one. It's easy enough to cite stations, positions, and show dates (here's one: I briefly worked at WNHU New Haven, co-DJIng for a hardcore show at 1:00 in the morning Saturday nights. It sucked, it was boring, and the only thing people cared about was getting more Black Flag, less Conert Updates)... IF you actually worked at one.

So yes, you DO have a lot of expounding to do. Now either get to it, or stop wasting our time.

Anecdotal evidence is highly valid when you use the blanket statement of "All". Let's look at why that is.

dictionary.com

all /ɔl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[awl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. the whole of (used in referring to quantity, extent, or duration): all the cake; all the way; all year.
2. the whole number of (used in referring to individuals or particulars, taken collectively): all students.
3. the greatest possible (used in referring to quality or degree): with all due respect; with all speed.
4. every: all kinds; all sorts.
5. any; any whatever: beyond all doubt.
6. nothing but; only: The coat is all wool.
7. dominated by or as if by the conspicuous possession or use of a particular feature: The colt was all legs. They were all ears, listening attentively to everything she said.
8. Chiefly Pennsylvania German. all gone; consumed; finished: The pie is all.
–pronoun 9. the whole quantity or amount: He ate all of the peanuts. All are gone.
10. the whole number; every one: all of us.
11. everything: Is that all you want to say? All is lost.
–noun 12. one's whole interest, energy, or property: to give one's all; to lose one's all.
13. (often initial capital letter) the entire universe.
–adverb 14. wholly; entirely; completely: all alone.
15. only; exclusively: He spent his income all on pleasure.
16. each; apiece: The score was one all.
17. Archaic. even; just.
—Idioms18. above all, before everything else; chiefly: Above all, the little girl wanted a piano.
19. after all, in spite of the circumstances; notwithstanding: He came in time after all.
20. all at once. once (def. 14).
21. all but, almost; very nearly: These batteries are all but dead.
22. all in, Northern and Western U.S. very tired; exhausted: We were all in at the end of the day.
23. all in all, a. everything considered; in general: All in all, her health is greatly improved.
b. altogether: There were twelve absentees all in all.
c. everything; everything regarded as important: Painting became his all in all.

24. all in hand, Printing, Journalism. (of the copy for typesetting a particular article, book, issue, etc.) in the possession of the compositor.
25. all in the wind, Nautical. too close to the wind.
26. all out, with all available means or effort: We went all out to win the war.
27. all over, a. finished; done; ended.
b. everywhere; in every part.
c. in every respect; typically.

28. all standing, Nautical. a. in such a way and so suddenly that sails or engines are still set to propel a vessel forward: The ship ran aground all standing.
b. fully clothed: The crew turned in all standing.
c. fully equipped, as a vessel.

29. all that, remarkably; entirely; decidedly (used in negative constructions): It's not all that different from your other house.
30. all the better, more advantageous; so much the better: If the sun shines it will be all the better for our trip.
31. all there, Informal. mentally competent; not insane or feeble-minded: Some of his farfetched ideas made us suspect that he wasn't all there.
32. all the same. same (def. 9).
33. all told. told (def. 2).
34. all up, a. Printing, Journalism. (of copy) completely set in type.
b. Informal. with no vestige of hope remaining: It's all up with George—they've caught him.

35. and all, together with every other associated or connected attribute, object, or circumstance: What with the snow and all, we may be a little late.
36. at all, a. in the slightest degree: I wasn't surprised at all.
b. for any reason: Why bother at all?
c. in any way: no offense at all.

37. for all (that), in spite of; notwithstanding: For all that, it was a good year.
38. in all, all included; all together: a hundred guests in all.
39. once and for all, for the last time; finally: The case was settled once and for all when the appeal was denied.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: bef. 900; ME al, pl. alle; OE eal(l); c. Goth alls, ON allr, OFris, D, MLG al, OS, OHG al(l) (G all); if < *ol-no-, equiv. to Welsh oll and akin to OIr uile < *ol-io-; cf. almighty]


—Synonyms 2. every one of, each of. 14. totally, utterly, fully.
—Usage note Expressions like all the farther and all the higher occur chiefly in informal speech: This is all the farther the bus goes. That's all the higher she can jump. Elsewhere as far as and as high as are generally used: This is as far as the bus goes. That's as high as she can jump.
Although some object to the inclusion of of in such phrases as all of the students and all of the contracts and prefer to omit it, the construction is entirely standard.
See also already, alright, altogether.

And I've taken the liberty of bolding the definitions that are most relevant to this particular discussion. Had you used the words most, or some, I wouldn't be so a**l about this, however, as you've stated "all" that includes every person who's ever written fanfiction, Since I'm included in that, my "anecdotal" evidence to support my counter claim is valid, thereby disproving your point.

On the other hand, you then went a step further, and turned to personal attacks in an attempt to invalidate my point, thereby comitting Ad Hominum. Now then, if you wish yo continue with calling me "sad" and "broken" then please, provide objective proof to support your stance, including proof that you know me personally, and proof that you are a valid psychological source for proving beyond any doubt that I am both "sad" and "broken".

One final note, simply because I write fanfiction, does not mean I am unorigional. I have several origional pieces of work that are very well received. I've written everything from poems, to short stories, to novels, and most of my work is origional work. Please provide clear, objective, conclusive proof that writing fanfiction shows absolutely no origionality.

[Lateralus Helica]

Macai

Lateralus Angel

I've seen alot of what you're talking about in various RPs I've been doing. Alot of people seem to want to put more emphasis onto romantic character interaction than anything else really. And it seems to be more chicks than guys.

In the types of fan fiction you're referring to I'm almost wondering if it's a girl's way of sexually expressing herself. Girl's don't always watch porn and tend to put more emphasis on romance and foreplay with the act of sex itself being the pinnacle of the entire experience. Instead of just watching a porn they write out fantasies, ensuring everything happens perfectly. They're probably also counting on the fact that they're least likely to get embarassed for expressing their sexuality through writing.

I roleplay quite a bit, but I like a solid environment to do so in (World of Darkness, Shadowrun, etc), and freeform tends to collapse on itself very quickly in my 12, almost 13 year experience with roleplaying.

Also, I have no gripes with expressing sexuality. However, why does this sexuality have to be a blatant ripoff of something else? Why can't you make your own bishonen characters to have their gay sex and romance with? Are these girls really that uncreative that they simply can't develop their own material?

Generally whenever I run across RPs like that I leave rather quickly, just mentioning that I frequently saw it though. You're right, they do fall apart on themselves.

And my guess is that these girls are either A: Absolute fan-whores of whichever characters they pick or B: Think it would take too much effort to create their own characters.

[Shadow SparX]

I could spend all day arguing about why it's called fan "fiction", but then I'd just be disproving myself.

See, the problem with fanfiction, is that the writers want to go "out of the ordinary". By this, I mean, if two people are obviously in love in the book/anime/whatever, those two are screwed, because the fan fiction writer will probably set them up with someone else. It drives me insane, but it's simply an unwritten law between fanfiction writers. As for yaoi, it's the same principal, but with people who want to see gay guys.

Also, sometimes they think, well, "what if so and so was gay?", or, "what if he dumped her and got together with her?" and after they think this, they write a fanfic about it, then they spread it around the internet, someone else sees it, writes their own, and before you know it everyone is 100% sure that it was meant to be that way, no matter what happens in the real thing.

I mean, I've seen people that could make a fanfic of two gay guys when one has been dead for like two years on the real anime and the other is married...

Just some theories of mine.


Yours truly,
Sorin "Hyper" Strike

[Macai]

DapperSam

Macai

DapperSam

Macai

DapperSam

I played in a very large online World of Darkness game and had to put up with almost half the female population of the game plotting characters around "how can I get x characters to have sex ^_________^" because they loved Yaoi and fan-fiction.

Seriously, I knew guys that played along with that, but I can't think of any that would make characters just to say "I wonder what sex would be like... AS A CELESTIAL CHOIR INQUISITOR" or whatever. That's a one-trick pony. A really, really annoying one-trick pony.

I'd just make the SL+2 women who try that rape victims, and justify it with the reality that WoD is meant to be horror.

Many of the female players ended up playing rapists, both male and female. It was really kind of disturbing.

Eventually, I just decided that all my of characters really hated rapists and took to killing them off whenever they were too obvious (i.e. all the time because they were obsessed with sex). It did lead to some funny stories, though. More than one rape plot in the course of a week is way, way too many.

Were these girls serious, or just being funny!?

They were dead serious. At least once a week they would make a character designed JUST to rape people. They started off as just playing Vampires with Dominate/Presence and Mind mages, which was bad enough, but when they started using Obtenetration or whatever the Lasombra discipline was called for rape it was just disturbing. I won't even get to the Werewolves.

It came to a head eventually when they tried to push that sort of plot on everyone in the game (40+ people, at the time). It pissed off enough people that pretty much everyone put aside their differences just to kill off those characters and then keep killing them off until they got the picture that coerced sex wasn't the focus of the story.

Sorry for taking such a long time to respond. I'm a really big fan of the World of Darkness, and this s**t just gets to me. How'd you manage to get a 40+ person group, though? Were you using a Chat like the Mods?

EDIT:

Lateralus Angel

Macai

Lateralus Angel

I've seen alot of what you're talking about in various RPs I've been doing. Alot of people seem to want to put more emphasis onto romantic character interaction than anything else really. And it seems to be more chicks than guys.

In the types of fan fiction you're referring to I'm almost wondering if it's a girl's way of sexually expressing herself. Girl's don't always watch porn and tend to put more emphasis on romance and foreplay with the act of sex itself being the pinnacle of the entire experience. Instead of just watching a porn they write out fantasies, ensuring everything happens perfectly. They're probably also counting on the fact that they're least likely to get embarassed for expressing their sexuality through writing.

I roleplay quite a bit, but I like a solid environment to do so in (World of Darkness, Shadowrun, etc), and freeform tends to collapse on itself very quickly in my 12, almost 13 year experience with roleplaying.

Also, I have no gripes with expressing sexuality. However, why does this sexuality have to be a blatant ripoff of something else? Why can't you make your own bishonen characters to have their gay sex and romance with? Are these girls really that uncreative that they simply can't develop their own material?

Generally whenever I run across RPs like that I leave rather quickly, just mentioning that I frequently saw it though. You're right, they do fall apart on themselves.

And my guess is that these girls are either A: Absolute fan-whores of whichever characters they pick or B: Think it would take too much effort to create their own characters.

And to the people who fall into category A, I say "Get a life," and to those who fall into category B, I say, "Stop writing."

[SKJC]

So, uh, what about those of us who write both fanfic and original fiction?

If you don't like fanfiction, I strongly suggest not reading it.

[Macai]

Shoujo Kakumei J-chan

So, uh, what about those of us who write both fanfic and original fiction?

If you don't like fanfiction, I strongly suggest not reading it.

The overall quality of your writing has gone down on the basis that your fanfiction is crap because all fanfiction is crap. So you might be a five star writer on everything but your fanfiction, but then you ding your own score up by writing one star crap half the time. Good job.

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Macai

Shoujo Kakumei J-chan

So, uh, what about those of us who write both fanfic and original fiction?

If you don't like fanfiction, I strongly suggest not reading it.

The overall quality of your writing has gone down on the basis that your fanfiction is crap because all fanfiction is crap. So you might be a five star writer on everything but your fanfiction, but then you ding your own score up by writing one star crap half the time. Good job.

Objective and conclusive proof (including a source for citation) please that "ALL" fanfiction is bad, or retract your claim. And then, under the same conditions, please provide proof that her other writings is automatically worse because she writes fanfiction.

[holy_fudgemonkeys]

It is fair to say that most fanfics are a load of s**t and I've written my fair share, I'll admit that. The overall unoriginality, or the butchering of the original characters are prevalent and are my biggest peeves. Goodness, you should read some of the s**t my friends write, enough to make a literate, grown man cry and sit in a dark corner.

But, out of curiosity, I would be curious to know if anyone would want to read an alternate ending I wrote for Frankenstein. It was a class assignment that I received an A+ on, but I question the validity of the plot or even if it is a possibility. A PM asking for the ending would be preferred (Just so you can base what I wrote on my years, I am a senior in high school).

[Macai]

Heart of the Fallen Angel

Objective and conclusive proof (including a source for citation) please that "ALL" fanfiction is bad, or retract your claim.

I wasn't aware that I had to substantiate my opinion. The quality of any art is subjective, and I have provided my criticisms of fanfiction previously. Do I need to repeat myself?

Heart of the Fallen Angel

And then, under the same conditions, please provide proof that her other writings is automatically worse because she writes fanfiction.

I didn't say her other writing got worse, I said her overall score got worse, because she wrote crap. If you write ten stories, five of which are rated at 5 stars, and five of which are rated at 1 star, the average (mean) of them is 3. Had the person not written those 1 star pieces (the fanfictions), she would have had a 5 star record, period.

EDIT:
To prove my point about art being subjective, I've developed a painting that I spent a whole 2 seconds on.


Can you please provide some objective proof that the Mona Lisa is a better painting?

[Heart of the Fallen Angel]

Macai

Heart of the Fallen Angel

Objective and conclusive proof (including a source for citation) please that "ALL" fanfiction is bad, or retract your claim.

I wasn't aware that I had to substantiate my opinion. The quality of any art is subjective, and I have provided my criticisms of fanfiction previously. Do I need to repeat myself?

Heart of the Fallen Angel

And then, under the same conditions, please provide proof that her other writings is automatically worse because she writes fanfiction.

I didn't say her other writing got worse, I said her overall score got worse, because she wrote crap. If you write ten stories, five of which are rated at 5 stars, and five of which are rated at 1 star, the average (mean) of them is 3. Had the person not written those 1 star pieces (the fanfictions), she would have had a 5 star record, period.

EDIT:
To prove my point about art being subjective, I've developed a painting that I spent a whole 2 seconds on.


Can you please provide some objective proof that the Mona Lisa is a better painting?

This is the ED, not a place for unsupported opinions. If you wish to argue opinions, then please go to GD. In the ED, if you make a claim, you support it with fact. Opinion does not constitute fact.