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marshmallowcreampie's avatar

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This isn't a discussion about whether abortion is right or wrong. Instead, I'm gonna offer a few situations and ask if you would change your position on abortion in those situations.

For pro-lifers:

The world becomes horrifically over-populated. You ever see Soylent Green where people literally sleep on staircases and streets because there is so little living space? And all the trees are cut down and "real" food is crazy expensive? Sort of like that. (except people aren't eating each other... Yet.) Would you support legalizing abortion in that situation?

A second situation, would you support legalizing abortion if there was enough living space for everyone, but not enough resources? As in, people don't have to sleep on the streets, but there's very little food or clean water.

A third situation, a test reveals the fetus would be born gay. Alternately, a test reveals the kid would be a born a serial killer. (how does the test work? Magic.) Would you support abortion in such cases?

To pro-choicers:

A false uterus is made. At any stage in the pregnancy, a fetus or embryo may be removed from the woman's uterus and placed into the false one, where it can develop there. Initially the technology was made to help women whose lives were put in danger by the pregnancy, but it becomes cheap and available enough for it to be used in any case where a woman doesn't want to go through pregnancy. She has a non-invasive procedure to put the fetus/embryo in the false uterus, and when it's developed enough as to not need to live in there, it can be put into foster care. The woman doesn't have to go through either pregnancy or motherhood. Would you support making abortion illegal in such a situation?

A second situation, the opposite of the Soylent Green style one: the world is becoming under-populated. The human population has been declining, entire neighborhoods are abandoned and there aren't enough people to work in all the industries. Would you support making abortion illegal in that world?

A third situation, a test shows the kid will be born with a genius IQ. They'd have high potential and would do a lot of great things. Would you oppose abortion in such situations?

To both:

Think of the Soylent Green situation mentioned above. Now, in that situation, would you start supporting FORCED abortions?
Ok, I'll swing the pro-choice critique since (I think) I'm probably more pro-choice.

In the first scenario, no. Because there is still a situation in which a person may feel morally wrong to leave a child out for the reality of foster care. Or even, they may not like the idea of having something that was a foetus inside them be raised by someone else. Yet still not want a child. Discomforts being discomforts.

In the second, again, no. If only because one wouldn't see much imperitive to insist on the continuation of humanity if such a pattern hit a particularly strong impetus. If we're killing off ourselves, so be it.

Edit for the third situation;
If they still aren't going to have a stable life growing up, I'm not exactly placing mass faith that genius level IQ changes much.
Another question then. Tests come available (pro-life) the indicate a 90% or better chance of having a gay child. What would you do? Serial killer? For the pro-choice; test indicates the child would have a genius level IQ.
marshmallowcreampie's avatar

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Another question then. Tests come available (pro-life) the indicate a 90% or better chance of having a gay child. What would you do? Serial killer? For the pro-choice; test indicates the child would have a genius level IQ.


I like this. Can I add a variation in the original post?
marshmallowcreampie
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Another question then. Tests come available (pro-life) the indicate a 90% or better chance of having a gay child. What would you do? Serial killer? For the pro-choice; test indicates the child would have a genius level IQ.


I like this. Can I add a variation in the original post?


Certainly.
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marshmallowcreampie

A false uterus is made. At any stage in the pregnancy, a fetus or embryo may be removed from the woman's uterus and placed into the false one, where it can develop there. Initially the technology was made to help women whose lives were put in danger by the pregnancy, but it becomes cheap and available enough for it to be used in any case where a woman doesn't want to go through pregnancy. She has a non-invasive procedure to put the fetus/embryo in the false uterus, and when it's developed enough as to not need to live in there, it can be put into foster care. The woman doesn't have to go through either pregnancy or motherhood. Would you support making abortion illegal in such a situation?

Well, support in what sense? I certainly wouldn't initiate making abortion illegal, but I wouldn't be opposed to making it illegal with this alternative in place.

Having a noninvasive procedure to remove a fetus, however, is pure fantasy, and I want to add; I would still be okay making abortion illegal with an invasive alternative procedure so long as the risk of complications is no higher than that of an abortion.

Quote:
A second situation, the opposite of the Soylent Green style one: the world is becoming under-populated. The human population has been declining, entire neighborhoods are abandoned and there aren't enough people to work in all the industries. Would you support making abortion illegal in that world?


Hell no. I will become a suicide bomber first. I've read The Handmaid's Tale, and I'm not interested.

Quote:
Think of the Soylent Green situation mentioned above. Now, in that situation, would you start supporting FORCED abortions?


Nope. I might start supporting forced sterilizations, though.
Centuries Before's avatar

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marshmallowcreampie


Quote:
A false uterus is made. At any stage in the pregnancy, a fetus or embryo may be removed from the woman's uterus and placed into the false one, where it can develop there. Initially the technology was made to help women whose lives were put in danger by the pregnancy, but it becomes cheap and available enough for it to be used in any case where a woman doesn't want to go through pregnancy. She has a non-invasive procedure to put the fetus/embryo in the false uterus, and when it's developed enough as to not need to live in there, it can be put into foster care. The woman doesn't have to go through either pregnancy or motherhood. Would you support making abortion illegal in such a situation?

Not illegal, no. The choice should still be up to her, ultimately. Even if the solution is easier than an abortion, the choice of abortion itself should not be illegal.

Quote:
A second situation, the opposite of the Soylent Green style one: the world is becoming under-populated. The human population has been declining, entire neighborhoods are abandoned and there aren't enough people to work in all the industries. Would you support making abortion illegal in that world?

No, because pregnancy in some cases can still cause mental trauma to the woman. And rapes could and would still occur - abortion should still be offered for those who have no desire to produce children and/or tokophobia.

Quote:
A third situation, a test shows the kid will be born with a genius IQ. They'd have high potential and would do a lot of great things. Would you oppose abortion in such situations?

The woman would still have to go through a potentially unwanted pregnancy, so no, I wouldn't oppose it.

Quote:
Think of the Soylent Green situation mentioned above. Now, in that situation, would you start supporting FORCED abortions?

No.
faerystrangeme's avatar

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Another question then. Tests come available (pro-life) the indicate a 90% or better chance of having a gay child. What would you do? Serial killer? For the pro-choice; test indicates the child would have a genius level IQ.


None of these would make me either force abortions or force births. Having a probably-smart fetus does not change a woman's right to not be pregnant. Also, I believe in 'innocent until proven guilty': we shouldn't punish people because they're likely to commit a crime. Minority Report is an excellent movie based on this very question.
faerystrangeme
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Another question then. Tests come available (pro-life) the indicate a 90% or better chance of having a gay child. What would you do? Serial killer? For the pro-choice; test indicates the child would have a genius level IQ.


None of these would make me either force abortions or force births. Having a probably-smart fetus does not change a woman's right to not be pregnant. Also, I believe in 'innocent until proven guilty': we shouldn't punish people because they're likely to commit a crime. Minority Report is an excellent movie based on this very question.


Oh, I fully agree. Those were just some other scenarios that one could consider. I personally don't have a dog in this fight.
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Another question then. Tests come available (pro-life) the indicate a 90% or better chance of having a gay child. What would you do? Serial killer? For the pro-choice; test indicates the child would have a genius level IQ.


None of these would make me either force abortions or force births. Having a probably-smart fetus does not change a woman's right to not be pregnant. Also, I believe in 'innocent until proven guilty': we shouldn't punish people because they're likely to commit a crime. Minority Report is an excellent movie based on this very question.


Oh, I fully agree. Those were just some other scenarios that one could consider. I personally don't have a dog in this fight.


Haha, sorry, I probably shouldn't have quoted you directly. I was just answering the question, not necessarily looking for a debate : P
marshmallowcreampie
A false uterus is made. At any stage in the pregnancy, a fetus or embryo may be removed from the woman's uterus and placed into the false one, where it can develop there. Initially the technology was made to help women whose lives were put in danger by the pregnancy, but it becomes cheap and available enough for it to be used in any case where a woman doesn't want to go through pregnancy. She has a non-invasive procedure to put the fetus/embryo in the false uterus, and when it's developed enough as to not need to live in there, it can be put into foster care. The woman doesn't have to go through either pregnancy or motherhood. Would you support making abortion illegal in such a situation?


This would require some sort of false parent(s) etc..

Quote:
A second situation, the opposite of the Soylent Green style one: the world is becoming under-populated. The human population has been declining, entire neighborhoods are abandoned and there aren't enough people to work in all the industries. Would you support making abortion illegal in that world?


People are choosing not to reproduce for some reason. Banning abortion won't change that.

Quote:
A third situation, a test shows the kid will be born with a genius IQ. They'd have high potential and would do a lot of great things. Would you oppose abortion in such situations?


They could just as easily do a lot of bad things.

Quote:
Think of the Soylent Green situation mentioned above. Now, in that situation, would you start supporting FORCED abortions?


In such situations I think a lot of people would choose not to reproduce in one way or another. The lack of food would solve that issue if only by stunting the ability to effectively reproduce.
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Pro-abortion here. None of the scenarios presented are convincing enough to force me to reproduce should they even become possible. OK, Scotty's gonna beam out the hypothetical fetus and it will be gestated and live happily ever after, possibly with the family of the rapist who put it in me in the first place. No thanks. Some genes just should not be propagated. I have no problem with abortions being forced on those who cannot support children on their own, either hypothetically or actually.
faerystrangeme
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faerystrangeme
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Another question then. Tests come available (pro-life) the indicate a 90% or better chance of having a gay child. What would you do? Serial killer? For the pro-choice; test indicates the child would have a genius level IQ.


None of these would make me either force abortions or force births. Having a probably-smart fetus does not change a woman's right to not be pregnant. Also, I believe in 'innocent until proven guilty': we shouldn't punish people because they're likely to commit a crime. Minority Report is an excellent movie based on this very question.


Oh, I fully agree. Those were just some other scenarios that one could consider. I personally don't have a dog in this fight.


Haha, sorry, I probably shouldn't have quoted you directly. I was just answering the question, not necessarily looking for a debate : P


Reality is, someone who doesn't want a kid isn't going to get any tests run. They are, quite bluntly, going to get an abortion. Period.
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Pro-abortion here. None of the scenarios presented are convincing enough to force me to reproduce should they even become possible. OK, Scotty's gonna beam out the hypothetical fetus and it will be gestated and live happily ever after, possibly with the family of the rapist who put it in me in the first place. No thanks. Some genes just should not be propagated. I have no problem with abortions being forced on those who cannot support children on their own, either hypothetically or actually.


What about in the case of a culture whose system keeps a certain percentage of the population in poverty, ie, not qualifying for parenthood?
As a pro-choicer,

No, no, and still no.

The first one is a little strange. I would say that people who chose to kill a fetus rather than put it into the false uterus were misguided, especially if it was free or low-cost. I would wonder why they chose that with an easy out. But I don't feel that it would entitle me to decide that abortion is now totally illegal. That would just be my own personal judgement.

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