What's Wrong With Obama's Health Care Plan?

[Foxie-Sama]

Syndactyly

Foxie-Sama

Syndactyly

Foxie-Sama

Syndactyly

Foxie-Sama

I do apologize, you are correct in that I did quote the wrong person. But please give me a "good analogy" then if mine doesn't suffice.

"The rich can pay $10 for water, and the poor people can pay $10 for water too or they will be fined or sent to prison for tax evasion."

Well, the prior poster said they think that the rich should pay more taxes because "they can afford it" Your analogy would be if the rich and the poor paid the same flat rate for taxes. Both you and your analogy fail.

Did I ever say I agreed with what he posted? NO! Both what he said AND your analogy CONFLICTED WITH REALITY. So you're the ones who are failing.

Please explain how. My analogy was based on what he said. The reality is that he said that he believes that the rich should get taxed more then poor people because the rich can afford it. So based off of that logic, I came up with my logic.

But in reality, the rich DO get charged more. Ever heard of the Capital Gains Tax?

What he said holds no truth, so it's stupid that you ran with it.

What does the capital gains tax have to do with this health plan?

Do I have to explain everything to you? Capital Gains Tax is one of the ways that the rich are taxed more then the poor. The prior poster said that they think that the rich should pay more taxes because they can afford it (and I am assuming they want the rich taxed more to help pay for health care)

[Syndactyly]

Foxie-Sama

I never said that his plan had NOTHING to do with insuring uninsured people, I am just saying that the main reason for it is so he can use it as a reelection tool.

Prove it.

Foxie-Sama

What about the people that are willfully uninsured? The ones that just don't want to buy health insurance?

They do not have to use Obama's new plan. And as for the 30 million statistic, I took off 16 million from the official number (46 million uninsured Americans), about 5 million of those people are illegal immigrants, so I gave roughlt 10 million people as a very generous number of people who could be intentionally uninsured.

Foxie-Sama

Have you ever asked yourself the question "WHY does health care cost so much?".

I actually know why it costs so much. Largely because the inefficient system we have now costs so much to run, but MOSTLY because insurance companies look to make a large profit. Medicare makes a MUCH smaller profit (4%) than insurance companies that leach out sometimes as much as 30%. That is one of several reasons why Medicare is significantly cheaper.

Foxie-Sama

This health care bill is just attempting to treat the symptoms, not the acutal problem.

What exactly, economic genius, is the cause of the health care problem?

Foxie-Sama

I believe that a big contributing factor to why hospital bills are so high is because of people being sue happy.

Evidence to support this theory?

Foxie-Sama

Your doctor farts while you are in the room so you sue him for multimillions.

You do realize a person who does not have a valid legal basis for suing someone will lose their case?

[Syndactyly]

Foxie-Sama

Syndactyly

Foxie-Sama

Syndactyly

Foxie-Sama

Well, the prior poster said they think that the rich should pay more taxes because "they can afford it" Your analogy would be if the rich and the poor paid the same flat rate for taxes. Both you and your analogy fail.

Did I ever say I agreed with what he posted? NO! Both what he said AND your analogy CONFLICTED WITH REALITY. So you're the ones who are failing.

Please explain how. My analogy was based on what he said. The reality is that he said that he believes that the rich should get taxed more then poor people because the rich can afford it. So based off of that logic, I came up with my logic.

But in reality, the rich DO get charged more. Ever heard of the Capital Gains Tax?

What he said holds no truth, so it's stupid that you ran with it.

What does the capital gains tax have to do with this health plan?

Do I have to explain everything to you? Capital Gains Tax is one of the ways that the rich are taxed more then the poor. The prior poster said that they think that the rich should pay more taxes because they can afford it (and I am assuming they want the rich taxed more to help pay for health care)

Again, WHAT does this have to do with the health care plan? You are trying to connect two entirely separate issues to make an already weak argument seem somewhat stronger. This fallacy actually weakens your argument significantly.

[DreadfullyFated]

---The Monsters Called "Human" by Birth---

Why I don't like the new healthcare bill is simple. I know people that don't have health insurance, and they can get by just fine without the hassles of healthcare bills and jumping through the insane hoops others go through. And I've read the bill... If I may say so, I think it's absolutely absurd that EVERYONE should have health insurance by 2013. How does it not add to the deficit in America? I'm still at a loss for that answer. And they also are saying that if you get pregnant because of things like incest, rape or if your life is at risk that you can have an abortion. The last time I checked, I wasn't physically owned by anyone. It seems only a matter of time before they tell us how to dress and what games we should play. (With this statement, I am referring to the rumor of banning all "M" rated games.) I hink I'll keeps observing how this word begins it's steady decline for a while... It should be fun to watch everything catch fire and burn to the ground. My final statement: Try to distance yourself from the stereotypical "Republican" "Democrat" nonsense. It only draws attention away from the big issue. That is all.


---The Time Has Come to Raise Your Voice in Protest---

[chainmailleman]

How in the hell does requiring an individual to carry health insurance under penalty of imprisonment for 5 years and a 250k fine solve anything? Oh wait....this is government. Logic is not in their vocabulary. Yet 1.3 trillion is. The bankers got 800 billion, now the insurance companies get 1.3 trillion. I wonder whos next in line to rape the common citizen of whatever he/she has left?

And after it is all said and done, I WILL STILL PAY UP THE a** FOR MEDICAL CARE.

Ladies and gents......If this Bill passes the Senate.....it will become a trigger for revolution.

May God, if he exists and cares, have mercy upon us all.

[Foxie-Sama]

Syndactyly

Foxie-Sama

I never said that his plan had NOTHING to do with insuring uninsured people, I am just saying that the main reason for it is so he can use it as a reelection tool.

Prove it.

Prove that he is doing it JUST to "help the American people" and that it has nothing to do with reelection. Why, oh wise one is he so hard pressed to pass it THIS year and not next year? He has more important things to worry about, such as the unemployment being the highest ever since 1086 (over 10% now) Source for the current unemployment rate

Syndactyly

Foxie-Sama

What about the people that are willfully uninsured? The ones that just don't want to buy health insurance?

They do not have to use Obama's new plan. And as for the 30 million statistic, I took off 16 million from the official number (46 million uninsured Americans), about 5 million of those people are illegal immigrants, so I gave roughlt 10 million people as a very generous number of people who could be intentionally uninsured.

Wrong wrong wrong. EVERYONE would have to be insured.

Syndactyly

Foxie-Sama

Have you ever asked yourself the question "WHY does health care cost so much?".

I actually know why it costs so much. Largely because the inefficient system we have now costs so much to run, but MOSTLY because insurance companies look to make a large profit. Medicare makes a MUCH smaller profit (4%) than insurance companies that leach out sometimes as much as 30%. That is one of several reasons why Medicare is significantly cheaper.

Source

Syndactyly

Foxie-Sama

This health care bill is just attempting to treat the symptoms, not the acutal problem.

What exactly, economic genius, is the cause of the health care problem?

The cause of the problem I believe is the cost of it. Part of the reason for it, I believe is people being sue happy. Suing for multimillions for things that are other then neglect from the doctor.

Syndactyly

Foxie-Sama

I believe that a big contributing factor to why hospital bills are so high is because of people being sue happy.

Evidence to support this theory?

Think about it. Doctors have to pay for medical malpractice. Doctors figure out the cost of that when they determine their rates. When there is a lawsuit, their premiums go up. To pay for those increase in premiums, they pass that along to their clients. Thats econ 101.

Syndactyly

Foxie-Sama

Your doctor farts while you are in the room so you sue him for multimillions.

You do realize a person who does not have a valid legal basis for suing someone will lose their case? Ok, let me explain where I was getting at. People sue for obsured things. It was The ONLY time someone should sue a doctor is if he was negligent. Now people sue if he didn't run a test and thus didn't catch something. If a surgery goes wrong, even if the doc did everything they could, people will have to blame someone, so blame the doctor and get some of their money.

[0-gitaroo_man-0]

I'm currently living in the u.k and from the point of view of someone looking at America from the outside... Your health care is dire!!!

I believe everyone should be entitled to healthcare as a service just as the public are entitled to other services. You shouldn't leave someone to die just because they don't have the money to pay for care or hospitalisation, if you were caught in a burning building a fireman wouldn't sit outside and wait for a payment before coming to your rescue.

And for Synd and Foxie....

>> Fair enough the guy wants to get re-elected just as any other president would, but the reason I believe he is trying to press it forward so quickly is because there ARE so many people that are out of work and cannot afford to support their familys health. Just as Foxie stated herself.

>> Yes everyone would have to be insured and pay for it if this came into action but they wouldn't necessarily have to use it.

>> Admittedly I don't know enough about Medicare but to my understanding it's government run?

>> And I know for a fact that suing is FAR too big in America, it does on occasions happpen over here in the U.K and whenever someone is taken to court for malpractice it is the hospital that pays for lawyers etc. And this gets taken out of money that could potentially be spent on patients, this then drives the price of bills up so i'm assuming it'd be something similiar in America.

>> I do agree with Foxie, we always hear absurd stories about Americans suing for idiotic reasons here in the u.k. Hospitals need to look after hundreds of patients and i'm sure if the budget could stretch they'd run every test possible on you but... there only human. Ofcourse surgeries go wrong, everyone would react to surgery in different ways and any situation could arise from it.

[Hachikuro]

Sensorium139

Well I think it's the house bill that just got passed( I think) that has the problem, as it restricts abortion to women outside of mother's health, rape, and incest, um...Roe V. Wade , do we have it still?

I don't see a problem with a good public health care plan, but if it means restricting a Woman's choice, I simply cannot support that, I will never support it.

I don't really understand this point, I thought it was just that the government would not pay for abortions, not that they were abolishing them?

[Prisonic x Fairytale]

Tobias_London

So what exactly is wrong with this?

The plan cost 1.5 trillion dollars.
United States is already in debt.

[Torrent_Of_Octane]

Tobias_London

Torrent_Of_Octane

Tobias_London

Torrent_Of_Octane

Tobias_London

So what exactly is wrong with this?

The fact that this is only benefiting the lower income bracket and forcing the higher income bracket to pay for it, instead everyone paying for each their own insurance. Of course the higher income brackets are disgruntled (mostly republicans but there are rich business owner democrats as well), Sure, we have a duty to the wellfair of our citizens, but that is just plain biased against the wealthy. I agree we need a health care reform, especially with the rediculus pricing that is charged for hospital attention, but Obama's current reform just sucks. He should take more time and try to balance things a bit more rather than straight up be biased against the rich and forcing them, directly and indirectly to pay for the poor's health insurance.

Obama tried taking his time.
Tried to get things right.
No matter what he does, it's wrong.
He tried to give gays rights, but it wasn't fast enough, so he was protested and called a gay hater.
(Don't give me your usual "Gays should rot" bullshit, please)
He's trying to take his time on deciding what to do about sending more troops to Afghanistan.
Now he's being called a liar for wanting save troops lives.
No matter what the man does, someone's gonna hate him for it.
I personally think he's doing his best to try to compromise on most issues.
His fault is trying too hard to please everyone.

You didnt address anything I said about health care reform... I didnt even bring up gays, you did.

All I'm saying is the reform he is pushing is way too drastic and biased against the rich. Just because they can afford it does not mean they should be forced to pay for it. Its unfair to the rich.

It was an example to show how he can't take his time to perfect everything.
It's apparently not possible to do so right now, because people keep demanding that he come through on all his promises.
Give the man some time.
You can't change an entire country overnight.
In my opinion, yes, the rich should pay for it.
A slight increase in taxes isn't going to hurt them.
Republicans help the rich, Democrats hurt them.
We just had Republican leave office after helping the rich, now its our turn to hurt them. LoL

Well, you asked, whats the problem and thats the problem.

You're entitled to your opinion and thats fine. Actually I'm not rich at all, I'm about 5 grand in debt due to a motorcycle I just got and I'm struggleing with 12 hour shift jobs in the weekend to try to pay for it. Not to mention my tuition and living expenses as well as donations to anti-gay groups. I'm really struggling, but even though I would benefit from this, I can still tell you its not fair at all.

[Nonesuch Solo]

Here's how I see it:

How does an insurance company work? They take in money monthly from their insured and pay out money to help cover medical treatments that are required for their insured. How do they make a profit? Why, they rely on the fact that every insured individual isn't going to require all of their premiums back throughout their lifetime. They also employ individuals who can tell if somebody is a "high risk" for their company--if somebody is unable to pay a certain monthly premium, they cannot insure them, and if somebody has a condition that will be godawful expensive to treat, they don't want to pay for that right away. This is good business sense, because yes, they want to make a profit. The insurance companies are not evil and nasty for wanting to make a profit in their business. Drug companies and medical suppliers get higher profit margins than most insurance companies; why is health care reform not focusing on those evil, profit-greedy companies? (Someone earlier mentioned that insurance companies get as much as 30% profit--can I have a source on that? Sounds quite outrageous indeed.)

So now there's going to be a Public Option, which is going to cover individuals who previously did not have health insurance because, for the most part, they did not qualify for private health insurance. This means that many of them were "high risk" for the insurers--either they would not be able to afford the premiums or they had potentially astronomical health care bills they wanted covered immediately upon purchasing a plan. So, we're going to have a Public Option taking over insuring individuals that will be expensive to insure, which to me says that it will be heavily subsidized through tax dollars. Surely the Public Option will also need to make enough profits (from premiums and from taxes) to pay all the administration required to keep such an endeavor afloat?


It's eerily reminiscent of Florida's Citizens Property Insurance Corporation.

Quote:

After Hurricane Andrew hit Florida in 1992 some Floridians were having difficulty purchasing homeowners’ insurance. (The reason: rates are regulated, and at the regulated rates some properties are too great a risk.) So, the state government formed Citizens Property Insurance Corporation, which is owned and operated by the State of Florida.

As originally envisioned, Citizens would charge rates above those charged by private insurers, to make Citizens the insurer of last resort. Nevertheless, Citizens found plenty of customers.

After two bad hurricane seasons in 2004 and 2005 property insurance rates in Florida rose, and in his campaign for the office, current Governor Charlie Crist promised voters that if elected he would see that their property insurance bills “dropped like a rock.”

One tactic he used was to change Citizens’ rate structure so it was competitive with private insurers. His idea, like President Obama’s idea with health insurance, is that with a public option, private insurers would have to keep their rates in line or risk losing customers to the government insurer.

That’s what’s happened in Florida. Today about 30% of homeowners’ policies are written by Citizens, which is the largest property insurer in the state. It’s about to get bigger too. The largest private insurer, State Farm, had a rate request rejected last year, and now is pulling out of the state altogether (for property insurance; they’ll still insure your car). As the largest private insurer pulls out over a three-year period (that period negotiated with the state), Citizens will get an even larger share of Florida’s property insurance.

Everybody in Florida knows Citizens is a fiscal time bomb. Already, every Florida insurance policy (on homes, boats, cars, etc.) pays a surcharge that goes to Citizens, but Citizens still doesn’t have sufficient reserves to weather a major hurricane. When one comes, Florida taxpayers will be on the hook for the bill.

The legislature knows this, and actually passed a bill last year that would have done a great deal to solve the problem by partially deregulating rates private insurers could charge. State Farm would have stayed in Florida had that bill taken effect, but it was vetoed by the Governor. The public option is displacing private insurance.

In Florida, the public option has meant a substantial socialization of insurance, subsidization of the public option by those who take a private option, and the creation of a fiscally-unsound public insurance company despite the subsidy. Now, we have an opportunity to do the same thing at the national level with health insurance. The results have not been good in Florida, and everyone in Florida knows it. Why would it be any different at the national level?

[Nonesuch Solo]

Torrent_Of_Octane

You're entitled to your opinion and thats fine. Actually I'm not rich at all, I'm about 5 grand in debt due to a motorcycle I just got and I'm struggleing with 12 hour shift jobs in the weekend to try to pay for it. Not to mention my tuition and living expenses as well as donations to anti-gay groups. I'm really struggling, but even though I would benefit from this, I can still tell you its not fair at all.

I think it stems from this idea that if you work hard, you should be rewarded. Folks in the lower income brackets who are genuinely working hard but still struggling to pay bills (or who, like my spouse and I, aren't struggling but have chosen not to purchase many of the "nicer things in life" that we would really, really like to have, and our richer friends have in abundance) often look at rich CEOs as examples of people who don't work nearly as hard as them yet somehow have all kinds of money to burn.

However, when I finally get the job I wanted to have, I want to be able to relax and know that I don't have to worry about bills as much anymore, that I can actually save my money and have it amount to something more than a "Just In Case" fund, be able to buy a freakin' couch one of these days, etc. Significantly increased taxes just because I make a certain amount more than I used to? No thank you.

[Project 429]

Insurance rates aren't going up because of malpractice, they are going up because no one takes care of themselves anymore. Everyone's overweight and out of shape. Private and public insurers are going to raise their premiums because of this.

[Project 429]

Tobias_London

Project 429

Brenivin

Project 429

Tobias_London

So what exactly is wrong with this?

It isn't the Weiner plan.

Is that made by Oscar Meyer?

Not exactly.

EDIT: More concise link.

Fail

How is that fail?

[Stygian Soleil]

Foxie-Sama

Prove that he is doing it JUST to "help the American people" and that it has nothing to do with reelection.

That's not how the burden of proof works friend. You made the allegation, now you back it up.