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Michael Noire
AsuraSyn


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Not exactly a "soldier" but regardless, a prime example of what it means to serve the whole.
Despite any romantic delusions to the contrary, there's only one requirement for a soldier: Follow orders. Obey.
Therefore, the ideal "ethic" of a soldier would be a complete lack of any ethical base and simple, blind obedience to the commanding power.



You are simply incorrect.

A clerk can follow orders and obey. A Priest can follow orders and obey. A Doctor can follow orders and obey. Not to get into a Socratic Dialogue or anything, but it stands to reason that following orders and obeying is an ancillary, and possibly optional characteristic of a soldier. Many soldiers are trained to disobey orders that would jeopardize the mission, the lives of their allies, or the ethics of the community that sponsors them. Some soldiers are voluntary and collectively gather under mutually agreed rules with little to no hierarchy. A person in a self regulated militia could be a soldier, just like a town's men and women being able bodied could gather their weapons together and manufacture additional ones to defend themselves against a foreign invader. All of these people, upon establishing a collective body of militarized opposition to a foreign body become soldiers.

Soldiers, at the end of the day, are warriors with a sense of Community connection in the form of patriotism, religious devotion, or philosophical dedication toward an end, where large numbers of them become organized as platoons, companies, battalions, and armies, with the potential for captains and generals and warlords as leaders, but not with necessity. All soldiers are not Samurai/Saburai who become something else/Ronin upon leaving/killing/losing their leader/Daimyo. An E1 on the field who witnesses the death of his Captain is no less a soldier after watching the rest of his allies die, as long as he keeps fighting till his time is up, till he makes it back to his homeland, or till the war is over. When his time is finished, it is finished.


Thus, a Soldier's characteristic by definition is not dependent on following orders.



A carpenter can cook his own meals, this does not make him a chef. Whereas a chef who cannot cook cannot be a chef professionally.
Many other occupations require obedience and the following of orders, but that is not the entirety of said profession. Soldiery is.
The idea that soldiers are simply combatants with an ideology of community can be undermined in one word, my friend: Mercenary. A merc is as much a soldier as a sworn commando, yet they simply sell their talents as a trade.
Yes, soldiers are given some guidelines about when to and when to not follow orders, however, almost every single time a soldier disobeys an illegal, corrupt or batshit insane order, s/he is invariably brought up on charges, even should the commanding officer not be.
In the end, a soldier is just a disposable person, used by the state or substitute authority, to gain political ends... just like the rest of the populace.

I often feel seriously shamed for having been a part of the military. It's really rough and screws with your head sometimes. Makes you sit there and wonder, "why the ******** am I risking my life for people who think I'm a monster?"

I was an NBC NCO in 82nd airborne, in a recon detachment. My average life expectancy in the field of duty is roughly twelve minutes, if I recall correctly. I've been exposed to high levels of radiation and I've treated children who were exposed to chemical weaponry by their own countrymen.

I've seen some ******** up s**t, I've lost people who I considered my family. I've never killed anyone, never even been in battle. All I've done is treat people and help to make sure that the folks I'm looking after (both military and civilian alike) aren't going to end up dying of a bioweapon or god knows what.

And when I ended up getting a med discharge on account of getting hurt while on duty, I regularly come across my own countrymen blatantly treating myself and my battle buddies who died out there like we're all just heartless killing machines.

I don't like war. I don't want to ever kill anyone, but I would do it in the defense of others. And I've always had something of a hero complex, so I suppose one could say I put it to use.

In the end (and after much prattling-- I'm tired) my thoughts are this:

Stop spending so much time questioning the ethics of soldiers and question the ethics of those who make them feel bad for being soldiers and end up going '******** this country' and committing suicide or losing themselves to some crazed run shooting folks up.

War will do things to you. And while you're out there trying to survive day to day, all you've got to look forward to is coming home. People should try to, I don't know, not be a d**k to those who make it home.
Oh, and I'd say the best quality in a soldier is the hero complex. Motivation to fight and possibly die in the name of your country/civilians/etc. can't really be found anywhere else.
A perfect soldier is no soldier at all.
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

Fanatical Zealot

A soldier does what is right, and presumably, fights to the death, whether themselves or someone else, to defend those rights.

They fight for those who can't fight for themselves, and those who deserve it.


Perhaps ironic is the term "suicide soldier".

Perhaps all soldiers are in fact, somewhat suicidal.
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

Fanatical Zealot

AsuraSyn
Michael Noire
AsuraSyn


User Image

Not exactly a "soldier" but regardless, a prime example of what it means to serve the whole.
Despite any romantic delusions to the contrary, there's only one requirement for a soldier: Follow orders. Obey.
Therefore, the ideal "ethic" of a soldier would be a complete lack of any ethical base and simple, blind obedience to the commanding power.



You are simply incorrect.

A clerk can follow orders and obey. A Priest can follow orders and obey. A Doctor can follow orders and obey. Not to get into a Socratic Dialogue or anything, but it stands to reason that following orders and obeying is an ancillary, and possibly optional characteristic of a soldier. Many soldiers are trained to disobey orders that would jeopardize the mission, the lives of their allies, or the ethics of the community that sponsors them. Some soldiers are voluntary and collectively gather under mutually agreed rules with little to no hierarchy. A person in a self regulated militia could be a soldier, just like a town's men and women being able bodied could gather their weapons together and manufacture additional ones to defend themselves against a foreign invader. All of these people, upon establishing a collective body of militarized opposition to a foreign body become soldiers.

Soldiers, at the end of the day, are warriors with a sense of Community connection in the form of patriotism, religious devotion, or philosophical dedication toward an end, where large numbers of them become organized as platoons, companies, battalions, and armies, with the potential for captains and generals and warlords as leaders, but not with necessity. All soldiers are not Samurai/Saburai who become something else/Ronin upon leaving/killing/losing their leader/Daimyo. An E1 on the field who witnesses the death of his Captain is no less a soldier after watching the rest of his allies die, as long as he keeps fighting till his time is up, till he makes it back to his homeland, or till the war is over. When his time is finished, it is finished.


Thus, a Soldier's characteristic by definition is not dependent on following orders.



A carpenter can cook his own meals, this does not make him a chef. Whereas a chef who cannot cook cannot be a chef professionally.
Many other occupations require obedience and the following of orders, but that is not the entirety of said profession. Soldiery is.
The idea that soldiers are simply combatants with an ideology of community can be undermined in one word, my friend: Mercenary. A merc is as much a soldier as a sworn commando, yet they simply sell their talents as a trade.
Yes, soldiers are given some guidelines about when to and when to not follow orders, however, almost every single time a soldier disobeys an illegal, corrupt or batshit insane order, s/he is invariably brought up on charges, even should the commanding officer not be.
In the end, a soldier is just a disposable person, used by the state or substitute authority, to gain political ends... just like the rest of the populace.



Uh... most mercenaries in the real world are soldiers with their own ethical code.

Executive outcomes for example wasn't paid for even half of what they did, such as save villages, track down the organizations, and even leave the country to make sure the guys were stopped (which was their single most costly incursion, and yet they were only paid to defend the country they were in), yet they did it anyways. For them, it's not about the money, it's about the ability to continue to serve, and unfortunately money is required.


No amount of money is really worth your life, and these people, for the most part, know that.

Also, U.S. soldiers have an obligation to do what is morally correct; "just following orders" is not in fact a good defense.
AsuraSyn's avatar

Dangerous Sex Symbol

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Suicidesoldier#1
AsuraSyn



A carpenter can cook his own meals, this does not make him a chef. Whereas a chef who cannot cook cannot be a chef professionally.
Many other occupations require obedience and the following of orders, but that is not the entirety of said profession. Soldiery is.
The idea that soldiers are simply combatants with an ideology of community can be undermined in one word, my friend: Mercenary. A merc is as much a soldier as a sworn commando, yet they simply sell their talents as a trade.
Yes, soldiers are given some guidelines about when to and when to not follow orders, however, almost every single time a soldier disobeys an illegal, corrupt or batshit insane order, s/he is invariably brought up on charges, even should the commanding officer not be.
In the end, a soldier is just a disposable person, used by the state or substitute authority, to gain political ends... just like the rest of the populace.



Uh... most mercenaries in the real world are soldiers with their own ethical code.

Executive outcomes for example wasn't paid for even half of what they did, such as save villages, track down the organizations, and even leave the country to make sure the guys were stopped (which was their single most costly incursion, and yet they were only paid to defend the country they were in), yet they did it anyways. For them, it's not about the money, it's about the ability to continue to serve, and unfortunately money is required.


No amount of money is really worth your life, and these people, for the most part, know that.

Also, U.S. soldiers have an obligation to do what is morally correct; "just following orders" is not in fact a good defense.



Outside of the odd sociopath, everyone has some form of ethics.
I agree that "orders" is never a good excuse for crimes, however, refusing such orders often gets you in just as much s**t.

Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

Fanatical Zealot

AsuraSyn
Suicidesoldier#1
AsuraSyn



A carpenter can cook his own meals, this does not make him a chef. Whereas a chef who cannot cook cannot be a chef professionally.
Many other occupations require obedience and the following of orders, but that is not the entirety of said profession. Soldiery is.
The idea that soldiers are simply combatants with an ideology of community can be undermined in one word, my friend: Mercenary. A merc is as much a soldier as a sworn commando, yet they simply sell their talents as a trade.
Yes, soldiers are given some guidelines about when to and when to not follow orders, however, almost every single time a soldier disobeys an illegal, corrupt or batshit insane order, s/he is invariably brought up on charges, even should the commanding officer not be.
In the end, a soldier is just a disposable person, used by the state or substitute authority, to gain political ends... just like the rest of the populace.



Uh... most mercenaries in the real world are soldiers with their own ethical code.

Executive outcomes for example wasn't paid for even half of what they did, such as save villages, track down the organizations, and even leave the country to make sure the guys were stopped (which was their single most costly incursion, and yet they were only paid to defend the country they were in), yet they did it anyways. For them, it's not about the money, it's about the ability to continue to serve, and unfortunately money is required.


No amount of money is really worth your life, and these people, for the most part, know that.

Also, U.S. soldiers have an obligation to do what is morally correct; "just following orders" is not in fact a good defense.



Outside of the odd sociopath, everyone has some form of ethics.
I agree that "orders" is never a good excuse for crimes, however, refusing such orders often gets you in just as much s**t.



Worth it.
A subject of morality for generations would be dependent on the individual who was drafted or who signed up.

I don't give a s**t about what anyone says of the military regardless but I've found this one thing to be true.

If you were ever in you'd know that soldiers come from all walks of life into one melting pot and often then form a brotherhood to where it often becomes about defending and dying for their battle buddies rather than the whole objective. To survive war essentially with those they trust.

There is no honor, there is no good or bad - its just you, your guys and the enemy.

In the end, its pathetic since we go through the meat grinder either by choice or draft and yet the home populace and even our own "patriotic" government does not understand a single thing about returning veterans with PTSD or how to treat us.

We serve then we become the minority and then are targeted by political gander, bigots and people who do not know any better and live in too much comfort and entitlement.


A factor of perspective. I guess we are all just humans in the end.
soldiers would fare better on returning if their virtue was a social axiom. Soldiers have to be trained virtuously from birth, but also from inception. From the time you sign your papers and pass your hearing and eye test to the time you are taking your shots with the needle gun or being handed your boots or shopping at the little store for that iron man watch or "acceptable running shoes", you need to be exposed to mottos, creeds, policies, posters, and propaganda that ensures you make the most moral decisions on the battle field for the culture you are defending. While everyone comes from different walks of life, they all leave noticeably changed. It is the responsibility of the institution to make sure what comes out is at least as good if not better than what comes in.

While it is important that soldiers be able to cope with suffering, exhaustion, pain, and the moral dilemma of killing people, and the horrors of noises, sights, and other sensations, not to mention possible capture, torture, and crisis, it is just as important that soldiers do not become dehumanized in these events. If anything, they should be used as opportunities to enhance the character and humanity of the person. They should leave knowing what it is to defend someone with your life. They should leave knowing what genuine friendship is, what it is to lay down your life and die for someone, what it is to be courageous, what sacrifice really means. They should return to their people knowing what rights matter and why. War has been waged for thousands of years. Both the good and the bad have won and lost wars.
Suicidesoldier#1
There are two types of enemies; those who deserve to die, and those who need to die. A crazy person; it's not their fault they're crazy. They didn't' wake up and choose to be crazy; but they need to be taken down, because they're a threat. Or child soldiers; they didn't choose to fight, or be brainwashed, so brainwashed they have a chance to escape and they can't even think to do it, so riled up they can barely stop.

Anyone who threatens you with force, really.


Quote:
The Bastards are the one's who went around enslaving them and brainwashing them; hell, half the terrorists are probably just brainwashed kids. Korean commandos are raised from the age of 2. The objective is to stop these horrible things from going on. There are martyrs on both sides. But when you over-all stop the oppression and violence, you're doing the right thing.

There are a lot of bastards and they aren't always who you think they are.
Knobist's avatar

Hilarious Prophet

Everyone on this planet needs to know that they're worthwhile.
Touching Hair's avatar

Enduring Regular

The ideal soldier is one that is able to understand the consequences of his or her actions.

You killing that civilian will anger his or her peers, resulting in them picking up rifles and killing your allies.
Treating an enemy soldier's dead body with disrespect will anger your enemy resulting in more friendly deaths and the disrespect of your dead.

It doesn't matter what flag they fly or what reasons they fight for, they're soldiers and have more in common with you than your closest relatives so should be treated with respect.
GunsmithKitten's avatar

Aged Lunatic

mellifluous glass optics
Makes you sit there and wonder, "why the ******** am I risking my life for people who think I'm a monster?"


Well the institution could stop teaching things like "How do you kill women and children? Easy! You just don't lead em around so much!"

That might help.
GunsmithKitten
mellifluous glass optics
Makes you sit there and wonder, "why the ******** am I risking my life for people who think I'm a monster?"


Well the institution could stop teaching things like "How do you kill women and children? Easy! You just don't lead em around so much!"

That might help.


I'm not sure that's a real thing that they teach actual people.

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